• [deleted]

Garrett,

If I Have understood this correctly the whole idea can be understood by picturing the concept in the same way Mr Carl Sagan did in his televison series from the 80th. In this science program an idea was put forward to give understanding of more than 3 or 4 dimensions to reality as we can persive them. The consept eas explained by relating to a world that had only 2 dimensions - and this world was named Flatland. If a 3-dimensional body were to manifest itself in this 2-dimensional world it would be like if you cut an apple in two - and "stamped" it on this flat surface. To the inhabitants of Flatland a sudden shape would emerge from out of noware - and leave a mark - and then disapear - without a trace.

So if I have grasped the idea here - the quarks and other manifistations in our space time continium is mearly a manifistation in our 3 or possibly 4 dimension wourld from this 8 or 256 dimensional reality that this E8-theory predicts

My question now is - have I got the idea or not?

Regards and keep up the good work

  • [deleted]

You describe your theory as a "principle bundle" - a mathematical structure (G) of one sort connected to a manifold (M) a "connection": C(G,M) -

if we "connected" different Gs do we get other (but presumably non-actual) self-consistent physics ? Or does M's structure constrain the choice of G?

  • [deleted]

I made up a quick blog to try to capture and list the most interesting links and related tidbits regarding this exciting theory.

Link= My blog of links

  • [deleted]

Oops. Previous post is mine.

  • [deleted]

Garret - I abandoned physics in the mid 1980s because the GUTs at the time were so ugly. I am delighted that you are proposing such a beautiful theory, and inspired by the way you enthusiastically embrace the importance of experimentation.

10 days later

I requested that there not be comments here. But there are some that I like enough that I'll respond to them anyway, but not necessarily seriously.

berlin,

Something like this may happen, yes. If the three generations didn't have different E8 quantum numbers, there would be no way for them to be different in this theory, and no way for them to have different masses.

Daniel,

Damn, what the heck's the point of building a secret doomsday device if you're just going to blab about it?

If someone does use E8 to blow up the world, it will be long after we're already gone.

Plato,

Just because I don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hmm, but that image does happen to look exactly like my right thumbprint... very odd.

Bo,

The E8 principal bundle over spacetime is a 252 dimensional space, called the "entire space." But, unlike in Kaluza-Klein theory, the 248 dimensional E8 Lie group is a "frozen" shape over spacetime points.

Lee,

I never described this theory as a principle bundle, it has no moral fiber.

RD,

Thanks.

Deborah,

I recommend teaming up with Daniel and designing sugar frosted E8, with doomsday machine surprise included in every box. "THEY'RE GRE8!" Please don't shout though, I'm sensitive.

  • [deleted]

Do you think the day will come when you understand:

1) Why E8 theory describes the universe, and

2) Why E8 theory requires that "something" rather than

nothing exists?

In other words, will you have a eureka moment where you

think, "Aha, that's why it has to be like this"?

  • [deleted]

The idea of E8 is awesome! We need a great unifying theory, and this seems to fit very well. It does suggest that the universe, etc, must have a designer, much in the same way that a clock's operation suggests the existence of a clock designer and maker. The study of objects seems to have mankind looking for an ultimate of some sort.

  • [deleted]

If existance requires that the universe be configured as an E8 manifold, and if this perfect geometrical structure allows life, then I am going to start attending church again.

I can understand the idea of trillions of universes with randomly selected laws of nature, a few of which just happen to be conducive to life.

However it seems unlikely that the "life friendly" universes will have perfect and beautiful geometry, or that

such geometry should result in "life".

  • [deleted]

I'm a complete non-scientist, but in trying to understand your theory, I was reminded of Carl Jung, who believed that mankind often created symbols in an attempt to reconnect with the unconscious " archetypes" that he believed formed the essence of the universe.

Jung was convinced that these archetypes were psychoid, that is, "they shape matter (nature) as well as mind (psyche)" That archetypes are elemental forces which play a vital role in the creation of the world and of the human mind itself.

so when I saw your youtube video of E8-- it looks so much like so many primal man-made symbols that Jung would flip over-- suddenly your theory had a real power for me, even if I couldn't understand the details of the science. so for that -- thanks, dude. you're my official new hero.

I don't know if the theory is "factually" correct, but I'm sure it's instinctually correct

as a soul surfer my bet is you've had some of these same thoughts. care to comment?

  • [deleted]

Andrew wrote: "If existance requires that the universe be configured as an E8 manifold, and if this perfect geometrical structure allows life, then I am going to start attending church again. I can understand the idea of trillions of universes with randomly selected laws of nature, a few of which just happen to be conducive to life."

What makes you believe the unrealizable trillions of universes with randomly selected laws have any reality outside your imagination? The existence of the universe is the greatest mystery, but arguments like this seem a cop-out shortcut to its solution. I prefer to live with the mystery. Why do you accept three space and one time dimension as mundane, but consider E8 exotic?

  • [deleted]

If E8 theory is correct then:

1) There is only one universe or type of reality,

2) That universe has a structure that is beautiful and symmetrical,

3) And because of that structure intelligent beings must evolve.

Either you believe in a Creator or that life came about through random selection. If you believe the latter then

there must have been a huge number of different types of random universes to be selected from in order to find one with something as improbable as life.

There seems to be no reason that the "lucky winner" would, by chance, have life, and also by chance, be based on a simple, orderly, and beautiful geometry. This would only happen if one required the other---and that idea has hints of religion about it.

As someone once said, "Maybe the universe is complicated, chaotic, and ugly."

14 days later

Andrew:

1) I hope so -- maybe.

2) This is a much harder question -- probably not.

Phil:

Why is it sensible to believe in a designer that's more complicated than the design?

Clocks can come from evolution.

Andrew:

Could I keep you out of mass if allow you to play with the Higgs VEV dials that determine all the particle masses?

Jonas:

Yes, this is where my own search for meaning has brought me. It will be very satisfying if these symbols work to give correct predictions for our physical world.

Gerry:

I mostly agree, in this universe anyway.

Andrew:

There are plenty of dynamic parameters that could take different values. However, the anthropic principal is based on an assumption that life isn't very flexible, whereas I think the converse is true. I think life could exist in universes we can't even imagine.

Rafael:

There are many differences. For example, Tony likes to remove parts of the Lie algebra structure when it suits his purposes -- that's probably the main difference.

  • [deleted]

"Andrew:

Could I keep you out of mass if allow you to play with the Higgs VEV dials that determine all the particle masses?"

Yes--because you said so I will just take it on faith that variable particle masses allow me to skip mass w/o fear of eternal discomfort.

OTOH being an "infidel" in regard to your theory, which is not punished, might be the safer course.

12 days later
  • [deleted]

GARRETT,

WHEN YOU RESPONDED TO MY CEREAL APPLICATION AS A TEACHING METHODOLOGY, AND DID NOT RESPOND TO THE OTHER QUESTIONS, I CONCLUDED THAT YOU HAD NO NEED FOR MULTIVERSES OR VIRTUAL DIMENSIONS FOR VIRTUAL OR ANY TYPE OF PARTICLE BEHAVIOR; THAT THE E8LIE WITHOUT DISTORTION OR ACTIVITY FROM TRANS UNIVERSES WAS INDEPENDENT.

I DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT YOUR PARTICLE ENVIRONMENT DICTATES; HOWEVER, ABOVE YOU REFERENCE MULTIVERSES IN YOUR 12/29/07 RESPONSE ENTRY. IN YOUR BEAUTIFUL PORTRAITURE OF THE E8LIE, I DIDN'T SEE ANY TELL TALE SIGNS SO I HAD TO ASK (I AM A MATHEMATICAL SLUG).

FOR YEARS I HAVE READ THE DOGMA OF STRING THEORY THROUGH M THEORY (AD PUBLISHING DICTATE$ INFINITUM) AND ALWAYS HAD MY OWN TERM, 'PARENTHETICAL', TO USE FOR WHAT THEY SO MISERABLY LACKED-A VECTOR TYPE SHAPE OF PARTICLE ASSOCIATION THAT I WAS REPEATEDLY TOLD COULD NOT RIVAL THE GODDESS OF STRING THOERY AND ITS MANIPULATED/MUTILATED CLONE DISTORTIONS (IT DID NOT FIT CLASSICAL WAVE MECHANICS BUT IT CAN BE PERCEIVED IN THE INTERLACING OF YOUR E8LIE

SO:

1 IS THE E8LIE AN INDEPENDENT ENVIRONMENT?

2 IF NOT, HOW WOULD YOU REPRESENT THE INTERACTION OF

MULTIVERSES--------(IT WOULD SEEM TO REQUIRE NON CHAOTIC

AND 'NON-STATIC' AND NO POINTS IN BETWEEN (NON-POINCARE)

BEHAVIOR; A NEW AND ENTIRE FIELD ALL TOGETHER.

(THINK ABOUT IT--I FIRST THOUGHT IT WAS WHAT ALLOWED YOU TO CONVERGE THE HIERARCHY OF DIMENSIONS INTO THE THREE PLUS ONE (YOU AND EINSTEIN ET AL); NOW I THINK IT IS THE PRIME/ORIGINAL/FIRST SOURCE OF THE 'CASCADE' OF WHAT WE HAVE PERCEIVED/MATHMATICALY DICTATED 'DIMENSIONAL HIERARCHY' TO BE.

MY FAVORITE PERSON WITH WHOM TO INQUIRE OF SUCH THINGS, R.L. RYDER PASSED AWAY A HALF DOZEN YEARS AGO AND I MISS THE SHARPNESS OF THE 'MORE THAN CHEMISRTY' CREATIVITY OF SUCH SHARP, KEEN MINDS. I MUST NOT MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO THANK YOU, GARRETT, FOR THE WONDERFUL GIFT YOU HAVE GIVEN TO EVERYONE BY ALLOWING US TO CONTEMPLATE YOUR STUNNING PROTRAITURE OF THE UNDERLYING BEAUTY OF WHERE WE ARE BLESSED TO LIVE.

6 days later
  • [deleted]

hihou !!

Me, I find the theory of nothing :

  • [deleted]

Yahou !!

Me, I found the exeptionnaly simple theory of nothing :

"

"

Garett, What do you think about my theory ?

7 days later
  • [deleted]

Dear Dr. Lisi,

just a question regarding TOEs:

Kurt Gödels Incompleteness Theorem ...

so *any* TOE will end up being a "TO almost E".

Guess this doesn't touch your present work at all, but in the long run you must have some sort of opinion about it ... ? Hope it's not too indiscreet to ask about it.

One more thing - I liked your statement about trying to find a beautiful theory. The search for truth and the search for beauty are in a way related - the ancient Indian seers called the Ultimate Reality Satyam, Shivam, Sunderam: the True, the Good and the Beautiful.

2 months later
  • [deleted]

I was thinking about the methods to test the theory: are the current and under-construction particle accelerators able to discover these new particles? If not, how much time should we wait?

Andrew:

You have successfully proved that making sense is not a barrier to conveying sarcasm -- nice.

Deborah:

The consideration of multiverses is largely independent from what I've been doing. Glad you like these new ideas, but I wish you wouldn't type in all caps.

bibou:

Nothing shouldn't be said twice.

N. Tantilov:

(addressed in other thread)

David:

What compelled you to post this same question multiple times?

Raven:

Don't wait at all, go out and play. More seriously, without mass predictions it's impossible to say when new particles associated with this E8 theory might be seen.

(Please don't post in this thread -- use one of the others for questions or comments. This thread is mostly for posting interview responses. If you post here anyway, I will make fun of you.)