• [deleted]

"2. ... that strict reductionism is valid for nature's entire hierarchy ..."

Indeed. See the first post (following the author's) on this thread:

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1321

    • [deleted]

    It seems to me that a lot of scientists confound the physicality and its walls and the light behind the wall, but its is just a suggestion of course !!!

    One can well understand why the fundamental assumption of strict reductionism was embraced for so long. As science gained a full understanding of stellar scale structure and dynamics, a detailed understanding of the structure and processes of biological systems, and a decent heuristic understanding of atomic scale systems, reductionism seemed highly appropriate to each of these three cases. It was natural to go the next step and assume that strict reductionism applies throughout nature's infinite hierarchy.

    However, if one studies systems from all the observable scales that are available, and does so without the bias of previous assumptions, one sees that nature has a fundamental fractal organization and dynamics, with discrete cosmological self-similarity. As noted in my essay, we have good evidence for the appropriateness of limited reductionism within any cosmological scale, but a strong indication that strict reductionism is definitely not the right assumption for the infinite hierarchy.

    To understand nature adequately we must recognize that a pulsar is just as fundamental as an excited subatomic nucleus undergoing de-excitation, and that the stellar scale Kerr-Newman ultracompacts that comprise the galactic dark matter are as rigorously fundamental as the protons, electrons and alpha particles that dominate the atomic scale of the hierarchy.

    Thanks for your comment. I looked at what you linked, but I am not sure I understand your point there.

    • [deleted]

    Reducibility means simulability. You have a process with defined sequences, causal steps. It can be simulated. That's reductionism in action.

    In particle physics, QFT, the simulation problem as it relates to bosons was brilliantly finessed sixty years ago with the Monte Carlo method. It took a lot longer (the past 10-15 years) to apply MC to fermions, and then only to weakly-interacting ones. Strongly-interacting fermions appear to be intractable.

    How do particles, particle-waves, become solid matter? What's the biggest barrier to explaining the process? The barrier is the inability to put strongly-interacting fermions on the lattice, as they say in the trade. Zaanen calls it "the nightmare of modern physics."

    Apropos of nothing: I wonder what the hype-masters like F. Wilczek and L. Krauss are going to say if the latest resonance turns out to be a spin 2 particle?

    Robert,

    For some time I have liked this poem:

    "To see a World in a Grain of Sand

    And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,

    Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand

    And Eternity in an hour"

    -William Blake

    Didn't know its significance in terms of scalar reality for a long time.

    Jim

      • [deleted]

      Dear Robert Oldershaw,

      I was a little surprised by the brevity of your essay but I think that may be misleading because you have introduced some very big ideas in that short space. I would have found more background discussion of those ideas helpful to me because I am not a trained physicist, astronomer or cosmologist.I feel that you have just given me a small appetiser and now I have to go and search for the main meal. Which may have been your intention.From what Alan writes it sounds like it is waiting on your web site.

      To contrast with your own experience, the limit of my practical astronomy has been trying to interest my son's in the subject. Tying to identify the features on the moon, compared to a small moon globe, and looking at Venus with a not very powerful telescope.

      I think that patterns including fractals have perhaps been rather neglected due to a prevailing reductionist attitude within physics, that has sought to explain what exists from a hypothetical bang and inflation rather than an ongoing process of self organisation.I have touched upon pattern generation control at different scales, from a biological perspective, in my essay.I can understand your assumption 2.I still don't understand what "scale is absolute" means. False assumptions 3.

      That the gravitational constant may not be constant over different scales seems a good suggestion to me. I think that perhaps at the smallest scale particles are unable to cause the kind of disturbance of the environment that is responsible for gravitational attraction of other bodies and deflection of light from its default path.

      I hope you generate lots of interest in your work.Good luck.

        Hi Jim,

        This little poem by the strange and wonderful William Blake has appealed to me ever since I was an adolescent.

        I use it as one of the "philosophical essence" quotations on my website. It captures the feeling of relativity of scale quite nicely.

        Here is another quotation that has appealed greatly to me of late:

        "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." - Albert Einstein

        Amen. Time to show the Platonists, and their misleading over-idealizations, the door. Time to start studying nature again, instead of analytical abstractions. Time for natural philosophers to rise again to their proper leadership roles in fundamental physics.

        Robert L. Oldershaw

        http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

        Discrete Scale Relativity

        • [deleted]

        Hi Georgina,

        I am not trying to win contests or prizes, but rather to get people thinking about a completely new paradigm for understanding nature.

        My very brief essay, which could have been expanded into at least 3 books, is just an invitation to some key ideas of the new paradigm. My website is the comprehensive resource for studying this new discrete fractal paradigm that I call Discrete Scale Relativity.

        Absolute scale is a simple idea. If every hydrogen atom, neutron star or galaxy had an absolute size, mass and spin period, then this would be absolute scale.

        On the other hand, if each of the discrete self-similar cosmological Scales has its own proton, H atom, etc., then there are an infinite number of differently "sized" protons, H atoms, etc., and that would make their scale relative to the particular cosmological Scale that you arbitrarily choose as your reference Scale.

        In other words if there are an infinite number of cosmological Scales and each has its own hydrogen atom, then what is the "size" of the H atom and is it big or small? The answers only make sense within a given Scale. They are not appropriate for nature as a whole because scale is relative.

        And in still other words, absolute scale works for small discrete parts of nature's hierarchy, like the Atomic Scale or the Stellar Scale or the Galactic Scale, but not for the entire hierarchy.

        Hope this is helpful.

        Robert L. Oldershaw

        http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

        Discrete Scale Relativity

        • [deleted]

        Hi Robert,

        thank you for explaining. I'm going to have to get my head around that. I think I understand what you mean. A big galaxy might have a big hydrogen atom and a self similar small galaxy might have a small hydrogen atom. ? - You are right the absolute scale is an assumption. I had never really thought about that before. So your plan to get people thinking is working!

        Actually things are a little different in a discrete fractal hierarchy with exact self-similarity.

        Galaxies correspond to subatomic particles: nuclei and particles shortly after a supernova explosion [the "big bang"] in an object on the Scale just above the Galactic Scale. Galaxies are very compact (relative to their Scale), move at high velocities (100-700 km/sec) and are part of a global expansion.

        Galaxies contain pulsars. Pulsars contain subatomic nuclei.

        Galaxies, pulsars and nuclei are the exact same thing on different cosmological Scales, so long as you carefully use their physical characteristics to make sure you have identified specific analogues (say an alpha particle from each Scale).

        Don't worry - learning a completely different way to understand nature takes some time. But once you work at it a bit the insights and understanding come increasingly fast.

        The degree of unification offered by Discrete Scale Relativity vastly exceeds anything that has come before.

        RLO

        Discrete Scale Relativity

        • [deleted]

        Thanks again for taking the time to explain. It is something I will have to think about to really understand what you are saying.

        To gain a working understanding of Discrete Scale Relativity and the new fractal cosmological paradigm, one needs to read 2 papers.

        These papers are Papers #1 and #2 at the "Selected Papers" page of

        http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

        They go through the technicalities, retrodictions and predictions of the paradigm.

        What is meant by a "cosmological Scale" is defined using the Atomic Scale as the archetypal and best known example.

        The self-similar scaling equations and how to use them can be found in these papers.

        After mastering the material in these 2 papers, one becomes a leading expert in Discrete Scale Relativity, since virtually all the members of the physics community have ignored this new paradigm for 35 years and remain clueless about it. :)

        When the dark matter is identified, I expect that DSR's definitive predictions of its mass spectrum will be vindicated and the barrenness of the old paradigms of particle physics and cosmology will be revealed for all to see. The 40-year No-Show for "WIMPs" is a preview.

        RLO

        DSR

        http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

        5 days later

        Robert

        I like your idea that the scale of things is highly stratified. I realise your concept is primarily directed at the cosmology side of the scale, but I can see the relevance to the tiny scale. If there were scale effects -from whatever cause- then there could be discontinuities in the manifestation of the physics. Which in turn could explain why quantum coherence does not apply to living cats, for example.

        Thank you

        Dirk

          Hi Dirk,

          Assuming that Discrete Scale Relativity applies only in the cosmological realm is not correct. It applies to ..., Subquantum, Atomic, Stellar, Galactic, ..., Scales. It unifies the physics of all scales of nature.

          -----------------------------------------------

          7/18 "manifesto" from nature online:

          String theory has failed to even generate a single definitive prediction after 44 years of hype.

          SUSY promises much, but nature (via LHC, Tevatron, etc) says: "No, no, no".

          The more you objectively study the "Higgs Mechanism" the more it sounds like it was cribbed off the back of a cereal box. Expect multiple additional epicycles to keep the thing floating.

          The standard model has 7 serious problems that clearly show that it is purely heuristic model-building.

          Conclusion: We need to start over with a new paradigm for the 21st century. New ideas from a new generation of theoretical physicists. Trying to patch up the old paradigms of cosmology and particle physics is just going to keep us wandering in the desert for another 40 years.

          The new paradigm will almost certainly be based around the discrete cosmological self-similarity of Discrete Scale Relativity.

          Robert L. Oldershaw

          http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

          Fractal Cosmology

          7 days later

          ADDENDUM:

          If you cannot resolve the vacuum energy density crisis,

          if you cannot explain the fine structure constant,

          if you cannot identify the dark matter,

          if you cannot predict the masses of fundamental particles,

          if you cannot reconcile General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics,

          if you cannot explain why galaxies exist, or come in radically different flavors like ellipticals and spirals,

          then you do not know diddly-squat about the cosmos.

          Particle physicists seem to be making it up as they go. Here's a nice example: They could not find a single free quark, so they made it a "law" that quarks are hidden inside other particles (just so!).

          It's mainly Ptolemaic epicycles in theoretical particle physics, no matter how vociferously they sell it to a credulous public.

          Robert L. Oldershaw

          http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

          Discrete Scale Relativity

          16 days later
          • [deleted]

          Hi,Robert

          Are you familiar with this book?

          http://www.amazon.com/Scale-Relativity-And-Fractal-Space-Time/dp/1848166508

            • [deleted]

            Your point of view close to Spinoza's philosophy a religion of nature.Nature - is the cause of itself(Causa sui).He was the closest in their outlook for the Einstein.

              Hi Yuri,

              Yes, I am quite aware of all of Nottale's work.

              Whereas I applaud many parts of his general outlook and his call for a fractal model of nature, I find the following problems with his proposed paradigm.

              1. Nottale assumes that there are upper and lower limits to nature's hierarchy.

              2. Nottale accepts the conventional scaling for gravitation and believes in the conventional Planck scale.

              3. Nottale downplays the crucial role that dark matter plays in cosmology.

              My research suggests that each of these assumptions is profoundly wrong, especially #1.

              His Scale Relativity may apply within any single given discrete cosmological Scale of nature's hierarchy, but I seriously doubt that it is the correct fractal paradigm for the entire infinite and eternal hierarchy.

              I have been a great admirer of Spinoza since I was made aware of his work by the work of Einstein.

              I firmly believe that Spinoza has given humanity the final word on the true identity of "God", although very few seem to agree with Spinoza, Goethe and Einstein that the infinite eternal hierarchical Universe, with its elegant laws, principles and symmetries, is all in all.

              God = Nature = everything natural and nothing supernatural.

              If others need a more anthropomorphic God, let them believe what they will. I would only argue that they are selling God short, in fact infinitely short.