Nature Has No Faithful Mathematical Representation by Roger Schlafly

RF:

Yours was an interesting and informative essay.. As a newcomer to the FQXi community, I feel few of the "community" grade, or even look at, my essay which approaches the problem very realistically, based on an internal view.. Might you look at it, comment if so inclines, and grade it?

To Seek Unknown Shores

聽聽 http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1409

Thank you

TE

Roger,

Your wrong statement:

"The crucial experiment was by Michelson-Morley in 1887, showing that the speed of light was the same in different frames of reference."

which catapulted you to the top of the community rating list, is taught by almost all Einsteinians:

http://www.amazon.com/Faster-Than-Speed-Light-Speculation/dp/0738205257

Faster Than the Speed of Light, Joao Magueijo: "A missile fired from a plane moves faster than one fired from the ground because the plane's speed adds to the missile's speed. If I throw something forward on a moving train, its speed with respect to the platform is the speed of that object plus that of the train. You might think that the same should happen to light: Light flashed from a train should travel faster. However, what the Michelson-Morley experiments showed was that this was not the case: Light always moves stubbornly at the same speed. This means that if I take a light ray and ask several observers moving with respect to each other to measure the speed of this light ray, they will all agree on the same apparent speed!"

http://www.pourlascience.fr/ewb_pages/f/fiche-article-la-disparition-du-temps-en-relativite-26042.php

Marc Lachièze-Rey: "Mais au cours du XIXe siècle, diverses expériences, et notamment celle de Michelson et Morley, ont convaincu les physiciens que la vitesse de la lumière dans le vide est invariante. En particulier, la vitesse de la lumière ne s'ajoute ni ne se retranche à celle de sa source si celle-ci est en mouvement."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,993018,00.html

Stephen Hawking: "So if you were traveling in the same direction as the light, you would expect that its speed would appear to be lower, and if you were traveling in the opposite direction to the light, that its speed would appear to be higher. Yet a series of experiments failed to find any evidence for differences in speed due to motion through the ether. The most careful and accurate of these experiments was carried out by Albert Michelson and Edward Morley at the Case Institute in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1887......It was as if light always traveled at the same speed relative to you, no matter how you were moving."

Yet a few Einsteinians teach THE TRUTH: Originally (prior to advancing the ad hoc length contraction hypothesis) the Michelson-Morley experiment unequivocally showed that the speed of light varies as predicted by Newton's emission theory of light:

http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Its-Roots-Banesh-Hoffmann/dp/0486406768

Relativity and Its Roots, Banesh Hoffmann: "Moreover, if light consists of particles, as Einstein had suggested in his paper submitted just thirteen weeks before this one, the second principle seems absurd: A stone thrown from a speeding train can do far more damage than one thrown from a train at rest; the speed of the particle is not independent of the motion of the object emitting it. And if we take light to consist of particles and assume that these particles obey Newton's laws, they will conform to Newtonian relativity and thus automatically account for the null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment without recourse to contracting lengths, local time, or Lorentz transformations. Yet, as we have seen, Einstein resisted the temptation to account for the null result in terms of particles of light and simple, familiar Newtonian ideas, and introduced as his second postulate something that was more or less obvious when thought of in terms of waves in an ether."

http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay-einstein-relativity.htm

John Stachel: "An emission theory is perfectly compatible with the relativity principle. Thus, the M-M experiment presented no problem; nor is stellar abberration difficult to explain on this basis."

http://www.philoscience.unibe.ch/documents/kursarchiv/SS07/Norton.pdf

John Norton: "These efforts were long misled by an exaggeration of the importance of one experiment, the Michelson-Morley experiment, even though Einstein later had trouble recalling if he even knew of the experiment prior to his 1905 paper. This one experiment, in isolation, has little force. Its null result happened to be fully compatible with Newton's own emission theory of light. Located in the context of late 19th century electrodynamics when ether-based, wave theories of light predominated, however, it presented a serious problem that exercised the greatest theoretician of the day."

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/1743/2/Norton.pdf

John Norton: "In addition to his work as editor of the Einstein papers in finding source material, Stachel assembled the many small clues that reveal Einstein's serious consideration of an emission theory of light; and he gave us the crucial insight that Einstein regarded the Michelson-Morley experiment as evidence for the principle of relativity, whereas later writers almost universally use it as support for the light postulate of special relativity. Even today, this point needs emphasis. The Michelson-Morley experiment is fully compatible with an emission theory of light that CONTRADICTS THE LIGHT POSTULATE."

Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

Dear Roger Schlafly,

The double slit need a deep thinking.

Please see my essay: Rethink the double slit experiment"

http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Xiao_KeXiaoFQXi828.pdf

The cross-linked angle established the connection between two slits by the fine structure constant.

"Plato as the Allegory of the Cave."

Now I realized that Plato guessing holographic nature of the Universe.

Thank you for hint.

Yuri Danoyan

Roger,

Since the Michelson-Morley experiment is compatible with Newton's emission theory of light, it by no means showed "that the speed of light was the same in different frames of reference":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emission_theory

"Emission theory (also called emitter theory or ballistic theory of light) was a competing theory for the special theory of relativity, explaining the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment. Emission theories obey the principle of relativity by having no preferred frame for light transmission, but say that light is emitted at speed "c" relative to its source instead of applying the invariance postulate. Thus, emitter theory combines electrodynamics and mechanics with a simple Newtonian theory. Although there are still proponents of this theory outside the scientific mainstream, this theory is considered to be conclusively discredited by most scientists. The name most often associated with emission theory is Isaac Newton. In his Corpuscular theory Newton visualized light "corpuscles" being thrown off from hot bodies at a nominal speed of c with respect to the emitting object, and obeying the usual laws of Newtonian mechanics, and we then expect light to be moving towards us with a speed that is offset by the speed of the distant emitter (c ± v)."

That is, your statement:

"The crucial experiment was by Michelson-Morley in 1887, showing that the speed of light was the same in different frames of reference."

is simply wrong.

Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

Roger,

In 1887 Newton's emission theory of light was the only existing theory able to explain the null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment. So your statement:

"The crucial experiment was by Michelson-Morley in 1887, showing that the speed of light was the same in different frames of reference. G. FitzGerald was the first to make the logical deduction from the apparent contradiction, in 1889, by saying, "I would suggest that almost the only hypothesis that can reconcile this opposition is that the length of material bodies changes..."."

is both wrong and misleading, which means that you will be one of the winners in this essay contest.

Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

I reiterate my request:

Dear Roger Schlafly,

While your views are often at variance with accepted tenets, they largely agree with my own experience, reasoning, and critical analysis of literature.

Inspired by a stunning result of experiments by Feist, Fig. 5 of my essay offers a plausible explanation of why the MMX failed to measure the aether drift. Pentcho did not yet respond.

I have to credit Paul Marmet for making me aware of the key importance of a possible mistake in Potier's correction to Michelson's original calculation: Most likely, this correction was still not yet correct.

Israel Perez claims to reinstate the preferred frame of reference while maintaining Einstein's SR. How do you judge this claim?

Sincerely,

Eckard

Walther Ritz was the genius, Lorentz and Einstein were dwarfs compared to him. Clever Einsteinians are often secret Ritzians:

https://webspace.utexas.edu/aam829/1/m/Relativity.html

Alberto Martinez: "Does the speed of light depend on the speed of its source? Before formulating his theory of special relativity, Albert Einstein spent a few years trying to formulate a theory in which the speed of light depends on its source, just like all material projectiles. Likewise, Walter Ritz outlined such a theory, where none of the peculiar effects of Einstein's relativity would hold. By 1913 most physicists abandoned such efforts, accepting the postulate of the constancy of the speed of light. Yet five decades later all the evidence that had been said to prove that the speed of light is independent of its source had been found to be defective."

https://webspace.utexas.edu/aam829/1/m/Relativity_files/RitzEinstein.pdf

Alberto Martinez: "In sum, Einstein rejected the emission hypothesis prior to 1905 not because of any direct empirical evidence against it, but because it seemed to involve too many theoretical and mathematical complications. By contrast, Ritz was impressed by the lack of empirical evidence against the emission hypothesis, and he was not deterred by the mathematical difficulties it involved. It seemed to Ritz far more reasonable to assume, in the interest of the "economy" of scientific concepts, that the speed of light depends on the speed of its source, like any other projectile, rather than to assume or believe, with Einstein, that its speed is independent of the motion of its source even though it is not a wave in a medium; that nothing can go faster than light; that the length and mass of any body varies with its velocity; that there exist no rigid bodies; that duration and simultaneity are relative concepts; that the basic parallelogram law for the addition of velocities is not exactly valid; and so forth. Ritz commented that "it is a curious thing, worthy of remark, that only a few years ago one would have thought it sufficient to refute a theory to show that it entails even one or another of these consequences...."

http://www.sps.ch/fr/artikel/geschichte_der_physik/walter_ritz_the_revolutionary_classical_physicist_2/

Jan Lacki: "Ritz had no time to make his theory more elaborate. He died complaining that no one, even in Göttingen, was granting his views sufficient care. His emissionist views were submitted to heavy criticism and experimental tests were later realized to show their inanity. Today, with considerable hindsight, we know the end of the story and how Einstein and Planck's views shaped our contemporary physics. While few would today contest the reality of quanta or turn their back on field theory of elementary processes, it is interesting to know that the criticisms against Ritz's conceptions were shown, since then, often wanting, if not simply incorrect. It is fair to say that if Ritz's emission theory is false, it cannot be as easily dismissed as it was thought in Ritz's times. Be it as it may, Ritz remains in the history of physics as an admirable figure, with a highly original theoretical turn of mind and an impressive command of mathematical methods, making him one of the emblematic theoreticians of his time. In retrospect, if he refused to adhere to the ongoing physics revolutions, he was highly aware of what kind of fundamental problems were at stake, and already this lucidity ranks him among the best."

Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

Pentcho,

While I am waiting for a reply by Roger Schlafly, I would like to tell you that in 2007 I tried to publish a paper "A still valid argument by Ritz". I referred to their agreement to disagree. Ritz rejected Einstein's anticipated future.

Given it was a mistake from the very beginning to expect a non-null result from the MMX then both Einstein and Ritz could not find the correct solution. I was guided by Norbert Feist's experiment when I found a quite logical quantitatively matching explanation for the unexpected null result, see my Fig. 5. Any factual objection?

Eckard

Roger,

Rather than "everything is made from math", most believe everything can be described by math. There is a difference. Physical reality is described by a subset of the totality of mathematics, and the math to reality map is surjective. The real problem is we look back from the physical reality perspective to mathematics that presents many choices, likely some we may not yet understand or possibly even know about at this time.

The reality of this surjection is some mathematical theories may show initial promise, yet not be fundamental enough to enlighten us on what we do not know. This should not be taken as a condemnation of the concept of using mathematics to describe physical reality. Too few mathematical physicists seem to have the flexibility to keep an open mind on other possibilities, like my shameless plug for my essay. Their intuition and physical religion tenants keep them on the path they are on, and really none of us are capable of demonstrating their efforts are for nothing, whether or not we subscribe to the idea reality has a mathematical characterization. You just have a different religion.

Physicists too often rely on mechanical models that set a particular mathematical path that more often than not more true to the model than it is to actual physical reality. It would be much easier to believe physical reality cannot be mechanically modeled than it is that it cannot be mathematically modeled. Multiple times in your essay you seem to dump on mathematics that could be taken as the result of a poor initial mechanical model and the host of assumptions it provides. You throw the baby out with the bath water.

Rick

Roger,

If you agree that human tradition of entangled co-existence of Physics and Mathematics has sufficient foundation and very long history,then problem is not in belief in pure mathematical reality, but in the search of the new ways of Mathematics-Physics optimization.In my essay I considered such problem as poor mathematical foundations of Relativity, connected with Einstein's complex numbers.R.Penrose made attempt to improve Einstein, and( as is known ) his twistor concept became foundation of String physics. Thus, more or less positive improvements in Relativity mathematics can produce new forms of advanced physics also. I await that some sort of refinements of Einstein's interval technique as well as Einstein-Penrose complex numbers can produce new unexpected developments in theoretical physics and cosmology.

Roger,

You wrote: "Pentcho, you are right that the emission theory was the only known explanation in 1887, but it is a historical fact that Lorentz and others eventually convinced everyone that light was a wave subject to the Lorentz transformation."

Something similar happened in Orwell's Oceania:

http://www.liferesearchuniversal.com/1984-7

George Orwell: "In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable what then?"

Pentcho Valev

Roger,

While I accept most of what you write, I still come down to rejecting the existence of a physical world in favor of only a mathematical multiverse. I explain this in my essay.

It is "without postulates" because (at least in principle) everything should be derived from pure math only. If you assume a physical world then you may have psotulates that can be explained in terms of deeper principles, but there has to be some ultimate set of postulates that are beyond explanation. Everything is then (in principle) explained from thosse fundamental postulates. But if there is no physical world, then there can be no fundamental postulates.

Roger,

I just read your paper. It took me a while to get to this. I am also not entirely sure what I think of it. I will be honest and say I don't hold fast to any particular metaphysics or philosophy of science/physics and so forth. I see these at best as hats to be worn at different times.

The relationship between mathematics and physics or science in general will probably never be understood. It is hard to imagine how a mathematical system can function with some concept of ontology, and conversely I am not sure how any theory of science can ever provide empirical content for mathematics. The distant prospect for that might be neurophysiology in the future with some scientific or testable theory of consciousness. For now I am not holding my breath on that.

It is interesting how mathematics used in one particular model system can appear in some other model. Isospin is formally much the same as the old nuclear model, and the AdS/CFT correspondence for quantum gravity, strings and M-theory has appeared in some form with London equations for superconductors. It is then most likely wrong to say that mathematics has nothing to do with physics, and that all of our use of mathematics in physical theory is either some accident or illusion. I also think it is likely the opposite is false as well where people say the physical world is mathematics.

In Penrose's book "Road to Reality" he starts out with a rather speculative idea of Matter, Mind and Mathematics in a triality system. This is similar to Plato's idea of physical and perfect forms that are "bridged" by mind, expanded on by Plotius, and frankly the opening of the Gospel of John is basically this same idea. However, this all looks like indemonstrable metaphysics.

Cheers LC