• [deleted]

Hi Edwin,

I too am a fan of your work (and will comment under your essay later) - and especially your book, The Chromodynamics War. The only reason it didn't make the New York Times best-seller list is that it is relentlessly high-brow, but I think you have identified - and spun an interesting story about - a hugely important conceptual divide between those who value causal coherency versus those who seem to value Standard Model categorization (even when causal coherency is uncertain). In the context of nuclear structure theory, the various nuclear models can account separately for different data sets, but the necessity of jumping from one model to another is jarring for anyone who values coherency... and makes me think there are different understandings of what "understanding" means.

  • [deleted]

Hi Vladimir,

I think we share a sense of what is beautiful, but I am repeatedly reminded of the truth that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So, you and I see beauty in lattice symmetries, while others see greater beauty in the act of experimental verification. The Higgs boson is a good example, but I would say that the collective effort that led to that result is more beautiful than the result itself. In any case, the FQXi essays are good examples of different levels of conceptualization, where we stake out our individual claims of "local" beauty. (Meanwhile, we await your essay...)

  • [deleted]

Hi Vijay,

Thanks for the comments. The "central" nuclear potential well has been a source of problems in nuclear structure theory for many decades, so it will be of interest to see if your picophysics can account for experimental facts without that fiction. The magic numbers are important, but their empirical identification is a particularly slippery issue because the "magicness" of proton magic numbers is influenced by the number of neutrons, and vice versa. That is why the textbooks sometimes include 6, 14, 28, 40 and 70 as magic or "semi-magic," and modern studies on exotic nuclei with huge excesses of protons or neutrons sometimes report the "disappearance" of other magic numbers. The QM "texture" of nuclei is certain (e.g., my Table 2), but the evaluation of "closed" shells is trickier than the evaluation of the inertness of the inert gases in atomic theory.

Hi Norman Indeed we are blessed to have this openness to beauty in general,and to enjoy Japanese gardens and sense of design and harmony. But the sort of beauty in physics goes beyond just the lovely illustrations - it is in the knowledge of the logic, economy and sheer intelligence in the workings of nature. Of course some may object and say that we impose this sense of order on nature with our theories and ideas, but I think we as natural organisms have evolved in much the same way as atoms and molecules did - and share the same logic!

I just submitted my colorful FQXI essay today it was harder to pare it down to the required length than just writing it!

Cheers!

  • [deleted]

I guess your references are not on the arXiv. I will try to look them up in library copies. I have been a bit slow, for one of my brothers died recently and I have been involved with that.

Cheers LC

  • [deleted]

Dr. Cook,

I have gone through your thought-provoking paper dealing with "the core problem has been the assumption of a central nuclear potential-well to bind nucleons together, in analogy with the Coulomb force that binds electrons to the nucleus."

It is true that the central attractive nuclear Coulomb force compels the atomic electrons to orbit around the nucleus, but this is not the case for the nucleons in the nucleus. Here, the nuclear interactions are represented by a single-particle potential that has to provide a depth of around 40 MeV to take care of the Fermi kinetic energy of 32 MeV of the nucleons in the nucleus and the nucleon binding energy per nucleon of about 8 MeV, which represents less than 1 % of the nucleon mass keeping the system nonrelativistic. The mean nucleon density of 0.17/ fm ^3, in the nucleus gives a mean distance of around 2fm between the nucleons and the short-range nuclear forces are most effective at this distance with a repulsive core at r = 0.5 fm. These nucleons move around in this self-generated Nuclear Potential aided by the Pauli Exclusion Principle (PEP) and the presence of the hard core, because inside the nucleus all the available states are occupied excluding the possibility of any collision. In this context, the QED cannot be considered worthier than QND, if this is nature's way.

Over the years, there has been a sharp theoretical-controversy over the water-tight validity of the PEP, but this discussion per se cannot be considered as the last word on this Principle that controls the behavior of Fermions and hence, so much of the universe as we know. Thus, in spite of the nucleon density of 0.17n/fm^3, these fermions with precise momentum and energy values, should have unhindered orbits to move around.

Moreover, the strongly interacting Liquid Drop Model and the Shell Model have been wrongly pitted against each other. The LDP cannot be more liquid than the SM or the other way around, because in both the cases, the same Fermions determine their structure and the interaction-energy content. One has to remember, that the LDM and the LDM-based mass formula of Weiszäker and others, was set up many years before the setting up of the SM.

Here, one often talks about the Mean Free Path (MFP) of nucleons in the nucleus, in the context of the formation of Compound Nucleus. An example, a thermal neutron (zero-kinetic energy) enters the nucleus of, say, 235 U. Once inside the nucleus, its binding energy of 6.5 MeV is freed and it can excite the nucleons of the nucleus only down to 6.5 MeV from the top of the Fermi energy of 32 MeV. These excited nucleons are projected into the unoccupied states of the continuum. Here, understandably, the MFP becomes very short, but this cannot be case, when an occupied state cannot be emptied into the unoccupied continuum states.

One has to conclude that the SM has been and remains the unassailable backbone of low energy nuclear physics with its spherical and deformed shells for the phenomena like spectroscopy, fission, fission-barrier structures and the production of Super Heavy Elements.

The Fcc Lattice Model is a good adventure, but it has to go a long way to root in its value. As an example, in the SM the cold fusion of D+D and the fission of Pd via the heat of the chemical energy, are not conceivable, but it seems that the Lattice Model does not exclude these. If here, the predictive power of this Model is confirmed., it will be its grail.

    • [deleted]

    Professor Asghar,

    Many thanks for commenting in such detail (here and elsewhere). Despite obvious differences in perspective, I am not sure how mutually-exclusive our views are. Specifically, I would agree with you that the shell model's description of "independent" nucleon states is "unassailable". But the theoretical contortions that are needed to get to that description in a "nuclear gas" are, I believe, dubious. Moreover, the fact that the final description of nuclear states is precisely replicated in the lattice model suggests an alternative. As most nuclear theorists would admit, the other (liquid-drop, cluster, etc.) models of nuclear structure theory are fundamentally not quantum mechanical (QM) and are, for that reason, widely held to be limited analogies between macroscopic objects and a small set of nuclear properties, but are far from being comprehensive theories of the nuclear world. In that sense, I think the choice for the "one truly comprehensive theory" of the nucleus will necessarily be either the QM lattice or the QM shell model.

    There are lots of specialist topics where the two models differ and where a decisive experiment might yet distinguish between them, but let me ask you about the shell model's invocation of the exclusion principle to justify the "orbiting" of nucleons in the dense nuclear interior. Weisskopf (1951) introduced that idea soon after the first publications on the shell model (1949), and stated it frankly as a hypothesis that needed examination: "It remains to be proved whether this [exclusion] effect is sufficient to establish independent orbits in low-lying states of nuclei in spite of the existence of strong interactions" (Blatt and Weisskopf, 1953, p. 778).

    But the hypothesis was soon taken by others to be a fundamental "truth," and has since been generalized to the form you mention, where the exclusion "principle" is said to be a "force" of nature! Gravity, EM, weak and strong forces..... and the fifth "force" of one particle excluding another particle from entering its QM space by virtue of "exclusion". I am not the only one who finds that logic a little bit strange. Herzberg (1937, p. 123), Condon and Shortley (1935, p. 167), Yang and Hamilton ("its physical basis remains an open puzzle", 1996, p. 193) and a handful of others over the years have commented that, as true as the exclusion principle is in describing certain fermion phenomena in both atomic and nuclear physics (and even QCD), it still needs to be explained on the basis of underlying physical forces.

    The invocation of the exclusion principle in nuclear theory is an example of the kind of domino effect that faulty assumptions produce: If you assume an experimentally unknown central nuclear potential around which nucleons orbit, you then need to explain how the nucleons can squeeze past each other in a substance as dense as nuclei. If the nuclear volume were much larger or the nucleons much smaller, then nucleon collisions might be sufficiently infrequent and their "orbiting" might be justified. But a typical heavy nucleus like Lead has more than 200 nucleons (rms radius, 0.9 fm) inside of a rather small nuclear volume (rms radius, 5.5 fm), making the nuclear interior about one-half filled with nucleons and making the nucleon "mean-free path" extremely short. So, having made the faulty assumption of a central nuclear potential, a nuclear gas is implied, but in order to justify nucleon orbiting, the exclusion principle must then elevated to the level of a "force of nature".

    So, I see what the shell model theorists are up to, but a less tortured view of nuclear structure is to accept the short-range nuclear force inherent to the liquid-drop model (and experimentally known!) - and simply forget about the novel use of the exclusion principle as a force of nature. All of the shell model QM states of nucleons are retained in a frozen liquid-drop (the nucleon lattice) - and the lattice shares most of the macroscopic properties already described in the liquid-drop model.

    In the end, does the lattice model today accomplish as much as the shell model, independent-particle model, the liquid-drop model and the cluster models have achieved?! The answer is: Not yet. But, if you would be so kind as to send me 10,000 graduate students and a few years of supercomputer time, I think we will leave the shell model in the trash bin of history where Ptolemy hangs out.

    In discussing the complexity of the nuclear version of the Schrodinger wave equation, you say "The first is that the nucleus contains two types of nucleon, protons and neutrons, that are distinguished in terms of the so-called isospin quantum number i. The second is the notion of the coupling of orbital angular momentum (l) with intrinsic angular momentum (s) - giving each nucleon a total angular momentum qunatum value (j=l+s)."

    Using these ideas and "a strong and short-range nuclear force that acted only among nearest-neighbor nucleons" you show an FCC structure describes a "shell model descriptions of nuclear spins, magnetic moments, shells, subshells and parity states.."

    Unfortunately, you also point out "The nuclear lattice does not of course address issues of nucleon substructure or the interpretation of quantum theory itself, and many aspects of quantum 'weirdness' remain enigmas in the lattice."

    I liked your essay and learned a lot, especially the clarity the two tables bring to the subject.

    There are other models that match the results of these two tables. Consider big thin shells layered on top of each other. Intrinsic angular momentum (s), is modelled as the spin of that shell and orbital angular momentum (l) is modelled as the spin around the axis of the particles precession, which is independent of the intrinsic spin. Animations showing the Larmor frequency of this style of particle can be seen here. Hope you may be so inclined to comment on this.

    Thank you for the contribution, a great read.

      Dear Professors Cook and Ashgar,

      I hesitate to enter a discussion between two such highly qualified nuclear physicists, but as you note,there are unresolved quantum issues involved.

      It is my opinion that the exclusion principle is neither a principle nor a 'force', but a consequence of the physical wave function discussed in my essay, to the effect that the physical wave function of fermions will interfere in such a manner as to preclude their occupying the identically same state.

      This model of the nucleon wave function predicts (at the same particle velocity) a physical wave six orders of magnitude weaker than that of the electron, based strictly on mass density. This should be significant from the perspective of de Broglie 'steering' of the particles. Additionally, the associated nuclear model tends to support a lattice structure, or at the very least lattice-based alpha particles.

      The model is very new and has no establishment support at the current stage of development, yet at the informal level of FQXi blog comments I feel safe in saying the model supports Dr. Cook's lattice model.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      • [deleted]

      Dr. Cook.

      Thank you for the reaction to my comment on your article. This allows me once more to clarify a few points:

      1. The SM potential is not central like for the QED but it is the self-generated single-particle potential due to all the nucleons of the nucleus in which they are supposed to move freely. If it is shown beyond reasonable doubt that the PEP and hard core cannot ensure this unhindered movement, one has to find another reason to understand the validity of this fundamental Model. Since more than 60 years, this SM has been the unassailable source - nay, the raison d'être, with an immense predictive power, for the vast enterprise of Low Energy nuclear physics. Its vast and unique heritage cannot be wished away or pushed down just as a trash (even of the future history) simply by condemning it to be artificial in its conception, because the lack of understanding of something should not make it artificial.

      2. The Fcc Lattice Model is an elegant enterprise, but its range of validity remains to be shown on the ground in its own right. Of course, you will not get 10000 PhD students and an unlimited computing power to prove the capacity of this Model. However, as I tried to suggest before, one has to find something that the Lattice Model can treat, but the SM cannot deal with. This seems to be case for the chemically induced cold fusion of D+D and the fission of Pd. Of course, there may some other things too. The uniqueness of these phenomena will be a powerful backing and justification for this Model in its own right.

      3. Please avoid these caravans of citations that have a tendency to end up as the truth on the point treated and this does not do any good to anybody. Moreover, these comments have to be made without hankering after any applause and panegyrics. Finally, I am grateful for the opportunity for these objective comments (and elsewhere) and wish all the best for the Fcc Lattice Model and its practitioners.

        • [deleted]

        The Pauli exclusion principle is a quantum topology. The PEP states that ψψ = 0, where we may then see this as a form of d^2 = 0, which is the dual of ∂∂ = 0 (the boundary of a boundary = 0) in topology. This becomes generalized in supersymmetric form with generators Q. The state ψ is such that Qψ = 0, but where ψ =/= Qχ. Therefore the state is ψ \in kerQ/imQ = H^1(Q), which is a cohomology ring.

        The PEP permits one to write a large Slater determinant for the wave function composed of the wave function of each nucleon. The potential between each nucleon would be the Yukawa potential

        V(r) = Ae^{-λr}/r

        The space would then in an equilibrium situation assume an "egg carton" potential function, where each pocket would exist at each nucleon. It would then seem possible to write a numerical program to simulate a nucleus and to determine which of these models is most accurate.

        LC

        • [deleted]

        Hi Crazy thinkers,

        we know already all that ! are we at university for an ocean of words and known equations???? Or an ocean of names of scientists with their ideas.???

        well,that said, happy to see the name BORH my favorite.

        That said the QND seems interesting, good work in fact. Well superimposed the ideas, not bad, a good work,it is well.Good luck so .

        ps Lawrence PV=nRT.....more my equations in the serie of uniquenss !!!You shall understand the nuclei and its rotations !!!

        Regards

        9 days later

        Dear Norman Cook,

        I'm sure you have enough difficulty swimming against the IPM stream without tying your theory to mine, but I have realized another way in which my theory supports lattice theory. Recall my self-induced flux tube model of the neutron. This model qualitatively explains the eternal(?) life of the proton versus the 800 second life of the neutron, unless the neutron is closely coupled to a nearest neighbor such as in deuterium or an alpha particle. Your lattice would seem to support such nearest neighnbor coupling with consequent extension of neutron stability for billions of years. A 'gas' model of neutrons (in which "the nucleus itself must be considered to be a tiny gas of "point-like" protons and neutrons that freely orbit within the nuclear interior.") in orbit about a central potential well would not extend neutron life at all.

        One more reason for me to believe in your model (and in my own.)

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        a month later
        • [deleted]

        Many thanks for your comments again, Professor Asghar!

        The various models of the nucleus have a long history, going back to the 1930s, and I often refer to the Fermi-gas model, the shell model and the independent-particle model (IPM) collectively as the "gaseous-phase" models. As you note, in fact, their theoretical foundations are quite different. The Fermi-gas model was little more than an analogy with the gas contained within a fictitious boundary. The early shell model was constructed around the idea of a central potential well - in analogy with atomic structure, but of course without any central attracting object that could act as the central potential. The "central potential well" was assumed to be the net result of the many local, nucleon-nucleon interactions... an interesting idea, maybe, but purely hypothetical as a mechanism for binding nucleons together into a stable nucleus. Everyone understood and most textbooks acknowledged that the central potential well was a dubious ploy, but the shell model nonetheless had many theoretical successes.

        As you have commented, the modern IPM utilizes a nuclear force. From the perspective of theoretical coherency, the use of a realistic short-range nuclear force is huge progress. Unfortunately, the modern IPM also requires a theoretical "trick" to make the model work. That is,the Pauli exclusion principle must be "enhanced" to maintain the "gaseous" phase that the short-range force, on its own, would not allow.

        As connoisseurs of nuclear structure theory well know, the exclusion principle was first suggested by Weisskopf in 1950 as a possible mechanism to allow nucleons to move like the particles within a gas under the influence of the shell model's (fictitious) central potential well. He argued that "exclusion" might justify the shell model's underlying theoretical assumptions, but the exclusion principle has been, over the decades, gradually "enhanced". Instead of a simple statement that "no two fermions can have the same set of quantum numbers" (which was Pauli's original formulation of "exclusion"), the exclusion effects have been referred to as "Pauli blocking" and even as the "Pauli force". It is not clear, dynamically, what that "force" is (and others have complained about this reification of Pauli exclusion into a force of nature), but without the "blocking" of the powerful short-range nuclear force effects, the nucleus would condense into a high-density liquid or solid.

        That is of course precisely what the fcc lattice version of the IPM predicts. If it is assumed that, without a Pauli "force", nucleons condense to a solid of nucleons (a close-packed, antiferromagnetic face-centered-cubic lattice with alternating proton and neutron layers), then it is easily shown that the properties of that particular lattice neatly reproduce all of the quantum number properties of the nucleus - for which the IPM is justly famous.

        So, I return again to the seemingly paradoxical position that I have stated before: I fully agree with Prof. Asghar that the "shell model" (IPM) has been wildly successful over many decades. Those successes cannot be ignored, but I maintain that the gaseousness of the shell model (and the implied nucleon orbiting and the Pauli blocking of the inevitable collisions of orbiting nucleons) is not necessary to explain the IPM quantal regularities, insofar as the lattice contains the same regularities. From a conventional point of view, it may seem unfair for the "new kid in town" - the fcc lattice model - to stake a claim for the shell model's theoretical successes, but I maintain that it is simply uncertain which model is mimicking the other!

        Without the quantum mechanical properties (the independent-particle states) of the IPM, the extensive and rigorous data on thousands upon thousands of nuclear isotopes become incoherent, so that the known shells and subshells of the IPM - and the occupancies of nucleons in those shells and subshells under the influence of the exclusion principle - appear to be essential. But I think that factors of serendipity and chance, more than logical necessity, led to the overwhelming predominance of the gaseous-phase shell model and it becoming the central paradigm of nuclear structure physics, while Wigner's original proposal of the lattice structure of the nucleus in 1936 was seen simply as a mathematical analog (and Everling's suggestion of the lattice as a coherent nuclear model in 1958, and Lezuo's solid-phase formulation in 1974, and subsequent developments in the same direction have been ignored).

        There are undoubtedly other criteria that can distinguish between the solid-phase and the gaseous-phase models, but it appears that neither model can assert that the well-established independent-particle systematics of the nucleus unambiguously supports one model over the other.

        I know that all is suimposed with a pure discrimination of me.You shall pay for this strategy and also for the bad implied. Your only one solution is to kill me before that I arrive in USA. and be sure I will come soon, very soon. I love the USA , you cannot lie about my faith and my heart. You cannot invent falses things for your own vanity and strategy.New York you say, ok my friends, no probelm.IO am a real christian, me , I have read the bibble at the age of 16.You think really that you can make all what you want , when you want and how you want and for what you want.Let me laugh dear vanitious, dear badband. Let me laugh.Even dead I wilml come in your dreams during the night, just to explain you your errors and what is the spherization. You cannot win.be sure.me alone with a weak pc at home psychologically weak, and without monney and you with your tools and your hate.you shall loose here on earth or after my death, it is not a probelm.I have my list. I know these persons, I know you my friends. Even with your superimposings of threads and checking of my pc, be sure ,you shall understand. You have just an idea of me at home with the youngs. You do not imagine my sufferings in the past. You do not imagine my life.I had an enterprize at 23 years old.Politicians have caused me a bankrupcy. I am still alive. You know really that I am goin,g to be at home always with my smoke. Let me laugh. Will laugh well who will laugh at the end !!!

        I know the team of bad persons from New York.But don't forget a thing my friends, your country is the country of the freedom.And also that it exists wonderful persons at New York. I will change this town me.You you destroy it !

        Revolution spherization of NEW YORK my friends.Irritating no? you fear , logic.You are going to make an other strategy, logic.You are going to make a reunion.Logic. But I arrive my friends. You thought that it was possible with the spinoza godelian approach in a cantorian road for a respect of Einstein.Me also I am a rationalist and also an universalist and also a real innovator. Let me laugh. New york, I arrive for the spherization revolution optimization.

        1 composting at big scale

        2 increase of vegetal mass

        3 revolution spherization of high spheres.

        4....

        Regards

        18 days later
        • [deleted]

        Dear Norman Cook,

        To my opinion Quantum Nucleodynamics exist only in 2D World.

        See my essay with my own Appendix comments

        You can start with comments.

        http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413

          10 days later
          • [deleted]

          there you do not delete , no but frankly Brendan. You know what ? it is not very well all this strategy from a team of vanitious full of hate. It is not acceptable. Fqxi is an universal platform. These strategies are simply bizare.

          You delete like you want in fact in function of your strategy with your friends. It is bizare.It is not well. Just for a discrimination of me. You find all that logic and well you.

          Persons making these kind of things are not generalists or universalists, it is not possible. Shocking in fact. The sciences community must be transparent and universal. It is essential. So why these bad comportments. I beleive simply that it is a question of vanity, of taste of opulences and money, a question of hate and unconsciousness simply. In fact, people lacking of competence the most of the time acts in this sad line of reasoning.Probably that it is due to education or I don't know me. the hormons also perhaps.The jealousy, the hate and the spite more the vanity are really catalyzers of these kind of comportments. It is simply a sad reality. I knew that people are ready to all to satisfy their own vanity and their taste of money. Let's pray for them.Hope they shall evolve after all, it is the most important.

          Spherically yours

          5 days later
          • [deleted]

          http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=dr625064p1460082&size=largest

          7 days later

          Norman

          I've just read your essay for the 2nd time, and found the parts I understood very interesting and informative. I've cited the nuclear force derivation of Vladimir analogised with dipoles orbiting a toroid. The nuclear Tokomak and AGN then come into play, neither 'point like' and both with multiple spin axis. Things like Hopft fibration and magnetospheres are in the same family, which critically, are founded on the concept of motion. Could there be any analogy here with your visualisation of lattice nucleodynamics?

          I believe your current lowly position shows that possibly the most pertinent part of physics is is too often ignored. I could really do with your input to a mechanism I consider in my own essay which relies on results of charge interaction at a nucleodynamic level. The macro results are astounding, if different to current physics because they work, but the interaction details I work up to may also I hope, give you food for thought. Certainly a good score coming your way whatever, and I hope you agree mine also worth one. I'll value your comments equally.

          Many thanks, and best of luck.

          Peter

            Hello Norman. This is group message to you and the writers of some 80 contest essays that I have already read, rated and probably commented on.

            This year I feel proud that the following old and new online friends have accepted my suggestion that they submit their ideas to this contest. Please feel free to read, comment on and rate these essays (including mine) if you have not already done so, thanks:

            Why We Still Don't Have Quantum Nucleodynamics by Norman D. Cook a summary of his Springer book on the subject.

            A Challenge to Quantized Absorption by Experiment and Theory by Eric Stanley Reiter Very important experiments based on Planck's loading theory, proving that Einstein's idea that the photon is a particle is wrong.

            An Artist's Modest Proposal by Kenneth Snelson The world-famous inventor of Tensegrity applies his ideas of structure to de Broglie's atom.

            Notes on Relativity by Edward Hoerdt Questioning how the Michelson-Morely experiment is analyzed in the context of Special Relativity

            Vladimir Tamari's essay Fix Physics! Is Physics like a badly-designed building? A humorous illustrate take. Plus: Seven foundational questions suggest a new beginning.

            Thank you and good luck.

            Vladimir