All

"Well, I said ''see my essay'', because I wanted to avoid having to copy the arguments of my essay in your thread"

I do agree with the general point being made here. There are some very awkward exchanges taking place, as this becomes more like a beauty contest than a search for facts, and hopefully controversial ones. There is a difference between making a relevant point, but having to refer back for substantiation (or purely by implication referring back), and making an oblique point (or just saying 'well done') in order to market an alternative essay. Posts can only be short. And understandably, people would prefer a discussion which has direct relevance to something they have written to be on their blog, because it inherently looks as if there is interest in their essay.

I might also take the opportunity to express my opinion that I am unhappy rating other people's work, particularly since this has implications. By definition, if one can 'understand' what is being said then unless it tallies with what you have said......we are back to beauty contest, more than assessment by factual validity.

Paul

In my last post I meant to say:

A self-creating universe does NOT live in a time realm of its own making but contains and produces all time within, so here we see clocks showing an earlier time as they are more distant, which only is possible if they (are observed to) run slower as they are more distant, even if they are at rest with respect to the observer.

In such universe we need no mysterious dark energy to explain the observed linear relation between the redshift of galaxies and their distance.

As to the point Paul makes:

For reasons I have set out in my essay, I think big bang cosmology is a waste of time and taxpayer money, so I try to subvert any paper I can find on this subject in this year's essays, not to wage a beauty contest or to fish for readers for my own essay, but mainly to put an end to a completely outdated idea and clear the way for some real progress.

Though I certainly don't intend to offend people working in big bang cosmology or don't respect their good intentions and efforts, I want to break through the habit in this branch in physics which, based on a deeply flawed idea, keeps spawning other hypotheses which, based on the same misconception, necessarily are as flawed.

To me what happens in cosmology here, is comparable to an alien society where the belief that their own planet is at the center of the universe is a truth which under no circumstances is to be relinquished. As a result these alien cosmologists had to dream up an artificial, very complicated scheme which keeps that illusion intact but nevertheless is able to predict motions of stars and galaxies pretty good.

If observations are made which seem to contradict these hypotheses, then they either are in the process of being incorporated into a new hypothesis of processed into a variation of an already existing hypothesis, so what I want to do is break the taboo by showing a how things look like from a different vantage point, where no far-fetched hypotheses have to be thought up to explain observations.

Though in general I agree that physics shouldn't be a playground for philosophy but a domain for statements which can be experimentally tested; some philosophical insights can have a huge impact on physics if they concern the interpretations of observations, even if they aren't experimentally verifiable, like the question whether the speed of light refers to a velocity or to a property of spacetime.

Anton

Anton:

That's quite enough of that. Without having read my essay, you admit that you're trying to "subvert" it, even though you don't have a clue what it stands for.

For the record, at the end of my essay, after careful analysis, I have drawn attention to the result of a calculation that indicates a potential connection between cosmology and gravitational collapse, although I haven't explored the possibility here at all. What I have done in my essay is criticise a big bang that is both singular (undefined) and the cause of everything---so I'm actually sympathetic to your cause, although I wish you would be less offensive in going about it.

You've said that you don't mean to offend, but you're trying to pick fights with people whose position you are totally ignorant of, and attempting to subvert essays you've not read past their abstracts. Please consider: I entered an essay on cosmology into a contest that's entitled `Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?'; so, obviously, I too think there are fundamental problems with the standard cosmological picture.

Daryl

Dear Vijay,

Thanks for your kind words and interest in my opinion, but I fear you've missed the point in my essay. I actually favour an expansion scenario through which redshifts would incur as photons traverse space, as I feel this is the most realistic and logically simplest way of accounting for the phenomena. The point I've argued for is that, if our expanding Universe *should* expand, the principal cause of that expansion should not be undefined.

Regards,

Daryl

Paul,

While I don't wish to elicit any more comments from you on this, I do want to note for the record that the conceptions of simultaneity and space-time that I've argued for in my essay are not as you've advertised them---i.e. they're different from those which are almost universally held. I agree that your discussion of "timing" is best moved over to your blog.

Daryl

Daryl,

Thanks for a delightfully well argued essay. I always appreciate work in which no attempt is made to hide assumptions, and everything falls into place precisely. For an alternative view in which no background space, coordinate system or cosmic rest frame applies (or can apply), I hope you get a chance to visit my essay site.

Congratulations and good luck,

Tom

    Daryl

    OK, but I am not sure why since these are important underpinning assumptions. Neither am I sure the extent to which your conception of SR correlates with what Einstein said it was, which was the point I raised. Simultaneity is timing, but I was not having a discussion about timing, JCN was, my point was about physical existence.

    Paul

    Daryl

    ''As Einstein noted [..] there appears to be a frame relative to which the bodies of our Universe are at rest, on average [..] Without such assumption nothing can be known about the redshift, of course. For it is true ... that a cosmic time must be assumed in order to calculate redshifts''

    The introduction of such reference frame comes down to saying that the universe lives in a spacetime continuum not of its own making: to an imaginary observer outside the universe. This is no problem in classical mechanics which is based on the assumption that particles and particle properties only are the cause, the source of interactions and forces. However, if in a self-creating universe particles create themselves, each other, then particles and particle properties must be as much the product as the source of their interactions, of the force between them -in which case it is illegitimate to consider the universe as an object which has particular properties and is in some particular state as a whole. If by definition there's nothing outside a universe which creates itself out of nothing, without any outside intervention, nothing with respect to which it can have any particular property or be in some particular state, as a whole, then it cannot have such properties or be in such state.

    In that case the entire concept of cosmic time, and hence the big bang idea is meaningless, so big bang cosmology describe a fictitious universe.

    Though you reproach me for not really reading your essay, from your reactions on my posts, I gather that you haven't really read my essay (and posts) or don't really understand it (or don't want to as my findings invalidate yours?), which indeed is hard as it shows things from an entirely different perspective than big bang cosmology does.

    Anton

    Anton

    There cannot be a proper cosmic time (as in timing) unless there is some physically existent phenomenon that always travels at the same speed, in the same direction,and is functionally perfect at 'recording' all the details of another physically existent phenomenon. That is, a perfect reference. Then, and only then, do we have a reference against which the timing of events can be properly inferred. And of course, this presumes we can then intercept it, without affect, and fully and accurately de-code it. Now, what we do have is a reasonable indication of the chronology of events.

    Paul

    Hi Paul,

    The perfect reference you're speaking of is the CMB---a highly isotropic black body signature indicating that we're moving through the Universe at 371 km/s. The CMB is very much like the isotropic signature of galaxies we observe, which had previously indicated the same, but its nearly perfect uniformity provides continuity that really completes the picture. By the way, along with the observation of the CMB itself confirming a prediction of big bang cosmology, the anisotropy signature in the CMB, with variations from perfect uniformity measured at one part in 100,000, also agrees very well with the description of quantum fluctuations in the hot early Universe which expanded in the manner that's indicated as well by SNe Ia observations. Since scientists tend to think a lot of models that provide predictions that are later confirmed, we think this is a really good indication that the big bang scenario is right.

    Daryl

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    Daryl

    Thanks for that. It is not 'perfect' in the sense that I was trying to convey, which is that it would be capable of revealing every physical detail of a any physically existent state, point in time by point in time (ie is the perfect timing reference). Indeed that is probably impossible for any physical phenomenon to achieve, let alone us having to have brains the size of a planet to process the data! But that failure, in terms of sensory deection, does not mean that that is not what physically occurs, and this (CMB) is certainly, 'good enough' as a 'clock' for the purposes required. Which were the points I was trying to get across to Anton. All of which leads back to 'Big Bang' as a logical start point of physical existence, as it is knowable to us.

    Paul

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    The main thrust of your paper is a distinction between the symmetries of spacetime, or its local transformation group SO(3,1) of Lorentz, and the symmetries of the spacetime solution. The synchronous basis is one where Killing vectors K_i, i = 1,2,3 obey the SO(3) group [K_i, K_j] = ε_{ijk}K_k. The distinction is then between the Lorentz group of spacetime that holds in local frames and the global symmetry of the spacetime manifold.

    Cheers LC

    Dear Tom,

    Thanks very much for your kind words about my essay. It means a lot to me that you had this to say about it. I will post something on your site as soon as I can.

    Daryl

    Dear Dr. Daryl Janzen,

    Congratulations for your PhD. and for an excellent paper.

    I read your essay (rather also had the pdf read most of it to me aloud!) and liked your conclusion, although some of the arguments where a bit too technical for me to follow. For some years I have concluded that Einstein did a disservice to physics by insisting on a fixed speed of light, a flexible time and space dimensions in an ether-less universe. As your two quotes on the first page show he was great enough to revise some of these ideas later, but now it is time to do away with SR altogether and start anew.

    In 1905 Einstein could have simply restated Lorentz (and Poincare's ?) ideas of the existence of an absolute universal ether (with matter permeable to the ether), and measurements subject to Lorentz transformations according to moving frames. The point is that it is clocks that slow down, not time itself dilates (and rods contract, not space itself). There is no time dimension in my 2005 Beautiful Universe Theory, just 'instantaneous' local states of the universe. A position reiterated in my present fqxi paper "Fix Physics!". I would really appreciate your reading both papers and hearing your feedback.

    With best wishes

    Vladimir

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      Vladimir (Daryl)

      As previously stated, please see my posts in my own blog for an explanation as to what SR is, as defined by Einstein, and how it came about (13/7 11.24) and where the original mistake was made (11/7 19.33). This is not my essay by the way, just a 'side issue' substantiating what is a rather 'throwaway line' in it. Some of the points you are making are correct, but not the totality. As per your reaction to my cold case review, it would be a big step forward if everybody revisted what was actually said over 100 years ago.

      Paul

      Dear Vladimir:

      First of all, just in case you're interested (since you mentioned the quote; and since it's so relevant to the aim of this particular essay contest), here's a more complete exerpt from Einstein's (1916) tribute to Mach:

      ``But how does it happen anyway, that a properly endowed natural scientist comes to concern himself with epistemology? Is there not more valuable work in his own trade? I hear some of my colleagues saying this, or sense from many more that they feel this way. I can not share this attitude. When I think about the ablest students I have encountered in my teaching, viz. those who distinguish themselves through independence of judgment, and not through sheer agility only, so I state of them that they had a lively interest in epistemology. They gladly entered into discussions about the aims and methods of the sciences, and showed unequivocally, through persistence in advocating their views, that the subject seemed important to them. In truth, this is not surprising.

      ``If I am not ambitious for external reasons, such as making money, and also not, or at least not exclusively, the sporting pleasure, or delight in brain-gymnastics due to a scientific turning, then, as a disciple of this science, I must have a burning interest in the question: What possible goal does the science want to reach, to which I dedicate myself? To what extent are its general results `true'? What is essential, which is based solely on accidents of development?

      ``... Concepts which have proven useful in ordering things, easily attain such an authority over us that we forget their Earthly origins and accept them as unalterable facts. They are then branded as `necessities of thought', `a priori givens', etc. The path of scientific advance is often made impassable for a long time through such errors. It is therefore by no means an idle trifling, if we become practiced in analysing the long-familiar concepts, and show upon which circumstances their justification and applicability depend, as they have grown up, individually, from the facts of experience. For through this, their all-too-great Authority will be broken. They will be removed, if they cannot be properly legitimated, corrected, if their correlation to given things was far too careless, or replaced by others, if we see a new system that can be established, that we prefer for whatever reasons.

      ``This type of analysis appears to the scholars, whose gaze is directed more at the particulars, most superfluous, splayed, and at times even ridiculous. The situation changes, however, when one of the habitually used concepts should be replaced by a sharper one, because the development of the science in question demanded it. Then, those who are faced with the fact that their own concepts do not proceed cleanly raise energetic protest and complain of revolutionary threats to their most sacred possessions. In this cry, then, mix the voices of those philosophers who believe those concepts cannot be done without, because they had them in their little treasure chest of the `absolute', the `a priori', or classified in just such a way that they had proclaimed the principle of immutability.''

      Anyway, I also wanted to clarify a couple of things regarding your comment. I don't think we need to do away with SRT and start anew: the theory provides an accurate description of phenomena which can't be ignored just because we're uncomfortable with some of its logical consequences. In this respect, Einstein remained steadfast to his theory of 1905 and the definition of simultaneity he expounded there, as he said only two weeks before he died, ``To us believing physicists the distinction between past, present, and future has only the significance of a stubborn illusion'', which is now a well-known logical consequence of his definition.

      However, I do feel very strongly that we need to insist upon a logical reduction of SRT, through a non-operational definition of simultaneity which is more consistent with what we know from cosmology, and which admits a description that is more like the common-sense perception of time's passage. This is what I've argued for in my essay. According to the description I've given, neither should clocks (or time) actually slow down, nor should lengths (or space) really contract, but things should be perceived as such when synchronous events are not actually simultaneous. If you do have another chance to read (or listen to) my essay, I hope you'll find this helpful, as I've tried there to reconcile the physical description from SRT with a presentist description of time that's just like what you described in Q2 in your essay.

      In any case, thanks very much for taking the time to read my essay and commenting on it. When I'm able to read through yours in full, I'll leave a comment for you there.

      Best,

      Daryl

      Daryl

      But 1905 is not SR. More importantly, that definition of simultaneity (from Poincare) is where the problem starts, because it is incorrect. So the subsequent expounding of relativity was incorrect. But their core start point, ie dimension alteration (and then light curvature in GR), may be correct. A flawed explanation of a hypothesis does not mean the hypothesis is wrong. It is spacetime and simultaneity that is wrong, these being the contexts within which it became 'explainable'. Dimension alteration might be right.

      Paul

      Hi Paul,

      Just out of curiosity, have you ever read Hilary Putnam's (1967) "Time and Physical Geometry"? I think he did a really good job of showing what the problem is with the common idea of what SRT is supposed to describe. If you haven't read the paper, I suggest starting with the second last paragraph, and then going back and trying to see how he gets there from the start.

      Daryl

      Daryl

      OK. Though I am somewhat inclined to believe what Einstein said it was.

      Paul

      Daryl

      Putnam might have had an inkling of the 'right' answer, but not of the proof. Forget SR, and all these other mangled approaches. It is very simple, reality is a sequence, so there is only one at a time. Timing is extrinsic to reality, not intrinsic. It being a methodology for rating the speed at which alteration occurs, ie between realities, not of a reality.

      Paul