• [deleted]

Peter,

You wrote: "We agree the speed of an approaching light wave can be relative c+v. The difference is that you stop there, and suggest that alone is enough to convince the troglodyte armies to renounce their god, repent and lay down their arms. I on the other hand suggest there is also a fundamental quantum reason that we always find local c as a maximum speed..."

This "we always find local c as a maximum speed" is mysterious. I have never found anything like that. Nobody whom I know has. Who are *we*? Aliens?

Pentcho Valev

  • [deleted]

Eckard

You are a strange one. You seem to wish for help to understand but then rebuff it, and dubb me with an interesting new name. No, I am not a Nixey nor related to any. I believed I could help as an educator, but perhaps I was wrong. I'm little used to failure, but can face it well. May I perhaps assume you are outwith the age range I am familiar with teaching?

In case you should feel you need any other opinion on physiology or reproductive systems I will keep watch on Peters work. Of those I had the pleasure to read last year it was Peters that, for me, gave the most clear and fundamental advance in understanding. But we are all quite different, with different strenghts, and any and all are probably wrong and will remain so.

I wish you well.

Judy

  • [deleted]

Peter,

For what reason do you exclude the possibility of just one common space? If Fig. 1 of Nixey did relate to acoustics then I would expect the air to the left the same as the air to the right and therefore the velocity re air the same in both cases.

I know that MMX was interpreted as evidence against a common absolute space. I included my Fig. 5 not independent from my Fig. 1.

You asked why reflections from a mirror in motion in a vacuum do c wrt the vacuum not the mirror. I imagine vacuum a space empty of air, not nothing but a moving re to virtually every object carrier of fields. (re = wrt)

Eckard

Eckard

You ask "For what reason do you exclude the possibility of just one common space?" It is because that concept only works 'locally', as, famously, do Maxwell's equations.

We first consider just one space at a time. But at the limits of each space there must be another 'common space', entirely equivalent. Then, as there are almost limitless cars, buses, trains and galaxies, there are, as Minkowski then Einstein (1954) concluded; "infinitely many spaces in relative motion."

In Nixey Fig 1. Yes, the spaces left and right are the same background space. But of course the centre medium n, in motion, is also a space is it not? And the waves within that medium propagate at c/n within and with respect to it. NOT c wrt the surrounding background space.

That 'surrounding space' may be the lab on the space station, which itself is moving at v wrt the space outside it, within Earth's ionosphere. And yes, I agree, that space DOES have a state of motion itself. It is not just MMX that falsified a 'single absolute space/frame' for all media everywhere, all of astronomy, optics and logic excludes it beyond question. That conceptual part is very simple. But what confuses most is;

Each 'space' then implicitly must be 'thought of as bounded' (not currently conceived, as pointed out by Einstein) and the boundary condition only needs to be a modulation mechanism. This is where the logic of absorption and atomic scattering at local c comes in, which is Nixey Fig 2, equivalent to a refractive plane of a moving medium (or the moving mirror surface charge).

So now consider your last line above. The 'moving' mirror is thick glass with a silvered back. Light does c/n through the glass IN THE MIRROR FRAME! So it then MUST change speed on exiting that frame into the DIFFERENT background frame. Yes? It is that speed change that is confusingly called the 'LT', and which gives the Doppler shift. It is implemented by re-emission at the c of the background frame. THEN all of physics falls into place. Including resolving all the anomalies I referred in my essay and many others there was no 'space' for (if you'll forgive the pun!) along with the other unique predictions.

If you still do not agree, then please do explain how light at c/n in the glass of the mirror can change speed to c in and wrt the vacuum, so by both n and v (mirror) without changing speed!?

Peter

Pentcho,

I venture you suggesting dt=c+v would be 'alien' to most. Just the suggestion of it for neutrino's caused major panics. Universal dt=

    • [deleted]

    Peter,

    When I performed experiments with mirrors I used so called surface mirrors that were coated with silver at surface. So I avoided refraction in glass. Anyway, I maintain: Refraction and reemission are effects that are not of primary importance if we are using wave equations in order to describe the propagation of waves. You mentioned spatial limitations to waves. While the extension of air with constant c is indeed rather limited, I share the guess that the em-waves carrying vacuum is effectively endless at least in good approximation. I asked "For what reason do you exclude the possibility of just one common space?" You answered: "It is because that concept only works 'locally', as, famously, do Maxwell's equations." Sorry, can you please explain this? I do not even understand how you define what border is assumed to the location.

    Eckard

    Pentcho

    It seems I used the 'up to' symbol, wiping out 90% of my above post!

    I think I discussed how 'alien' it is to most to conceive anything OTHER than dt=max c, or the max c (or c/n) always found locally within propagating media when using the standard universal assumption of frequency and wavelength being inversely proportional. How you think you stand a chance of convincing anyone of propagation at C+ you'd have to explain!

    I agree the current assumptions are wrong. You then propose different assumptions, but they are LESS acceptable (right or wrong) and anyway also not consistent. This includes with optics, (try it on KRR!) and as an astronomer I've studied everything possible on the subject and found local c=dt to first order about the ONLY absolutely undeniable thing there is (i.e. binary star light absolutey does arrive together irrespective of emitter motion). Also your assumptions don't actually really resolve anything and just adds to problems. There are dozens of anomalies and paradoxes out there. Can you give me a list of which it resolves?

    OK, so I have found a slightly different set of assumptions. I've shown that mine ARE consistent with logic and all observation, and that they CAN resolve all the anomalies. What else could it do? So the only remaining problem is to persuade people to abandon deeply held assumptions.

    The question then is, who will manage this first, mainstream or Pentcho?

    Unless of course anyone can find anything apart from belief and assumption to falsify it with. So far not one. I almost wish they could as I could go sailing. Can you?

    Best wishes.

    Peter

    Eckard

    It is important to consider a glass mirror. I suggest we can't do worthwhile science by 'passing by' all things we can't explain, or call them 'unimportant'.

    Media move wrt other media. Do you suggest waves ignore the media? Of course you wouldn't. So light in one medium is doing a different speed globally to that in another.

    Maxwell's equations are, and have only ever been, only valid for each limited local space. They famously will not transform via the LT (a complex matter of 'partial time derivatives'). So the local spaces may then represent inertial frames. You should find plenty of references to this well known limitation which has never been resolved. If not I'll find some (or just see T E Phipps). All resolves with effectively an LT at the TZ.

    Best wishes

    Peter

    • [deleted]

    Peter,

    I propose no assumptions. I am only referring to Doppler effect for sound waves:

    "Sound waves have speed c, and f and L are related by c=Lf. For an observer moving relative to medium with speed u, apparent propagation speed c' will be different: c'=c±u. Wavelength cannot change - it's a constant length in the medium, and same length in moving coordinate system (motion does not change lengths). Observed frequency has to change, to match apparent speed and fixed wavelength: f'=c'/L."

    Then I am referring to the straightforward analogy between Doppler sound and Doppler light which is often implicit for obvious reasons: writing c'=c+v for light waves may prove suicidal for the author. So please comment on the above analysis of the Doppler effect:

    1. Is it correct?

    2. Is it equally valid for light waves?

    If your answer is double yes we can close the discussion - thank you and good luck in the contest.

    Pentcho Valev

    • [deleted]

    Peter Jackson or anyone who knows the answers:

    Please improve these questions if necessary so that they may deserve your responses.

    If a macroscopic mechanical spring operated mantel clock is moving close to and horizontally to the surface of the Earth at a constant velocity, will it physically undergo length contraction and/or time dilation. Will its time keeping function slow? Will the clock keep slower time than an identical clock sitting stationary on the surface of the Earth. Will its size or shape change compared to an identical stationary clock sitting on the surface of the Earth?

    If a macroscopic mechanical spring operated mantle clock is moved from a stable high position above the Earth, stationary with respect to a point of the surface of the Earth, to a stable position on the Earth, will it have changed size or shape and/or rate of its time keeping function due to General Relativity type effects? Will it physically undergo length contraction and/or time dilation?

    I am not asking about effects due to acceleration. There is no acceleration of either clock with respect to the Earth. There is no velocity for the stationary clock. There is constant velocity for the clock moving parallel to the Earth. I am not asking about photons or doppler effects. I am not asking what the clocks look like from different perspectives. I am asking what happens to the clocks themselves with regard to relativity type effects? Please disregard any atmospheric resistance. The moon could be substituted for the Earth.

    James Putnam

    Pentcho,

    No. Like most current science that's an incomplete understanding, so it is what's been leading us astray.

    The new and more complete view may be;

    1. All collections of matter forms a 'medium'.

    2. All lenses or detectors are collections of matter.

    3. The detector medium and approach medium are then in different states of motion.

    4. Lambda IN one medium must then vary instantly on contact with the other.

    5. Speed in one (c) would then vary to become a different speed in the other (c').

    6. The relation c=fL is then consistent, as found, and with a complete new aspect of it's prime importance exposed. c+v is only 'relative', because the PLACES the propagations are in are physically separated and co-moving.

    This solution gives the Doppler shift, (delta f & L) and also resolves all the paradoxes introduced by SR, and all anomalies in current interpretations of observation. It cannot be falsified by ANY evidence.

    Your option is not indeed proposing any NEW assumptions, but it is relying on the old ones that are now, or will be, discredited. We may say this assumption is equivalent to saying "we can 'see' something without actually USING our eyes!!' Mine accepts that we need to actually USE our eyes to see.

    Can you see the big difference?

    Peter

      Eckard, (et al).

      The local domain limits of Maxwell's equations, which I'd assumed were also well known in EE, are discussed in many places and ways, normally as a kinetic 'transform' problem in em. Here they are along with 'extinction' equivalent to a boundary mechanism; (many later papers also discuss).

      Equivalence of the Ewald-Oseen extinction theorem as a nonlocal boundary-value problem with Maxwells equations and boundary conditions J. Opt. Soc. Am. 68, 602-610 (1978) http://www.opticsinfobase.org/josa/abstract.cfm?uri=josa-68-5-602

      In terms of Maxwell's field equations the domain limit is at the 'near field' transition zone. Poorly understood when linked to a Cartesian view, but rationalised as 3D spatial limits and mechanism in my essay (and imminent paper) as 'defining' discrete fields. If any other readers have any other links or insights please do post them.

      Many thanks, and best wishes

      Peter

      • [deleted]

      Peter,

      When the observer starts moving with speed v towards the source of sound waves, then, relative to him, the frequency shifts from f=c/L to f'=(c+v)/L, the speed of the waves from c to c'=c+v, and the wavelength remains unchanged (L'=L). This is discussed in elementary textbooks and is OBVIOUS.

      Are the textbook formulas f'=(c+v)/L, c'=c+v and L'=L true, Peter? You should answer this question before proposing your "new and more complete view".

      Pentcho Valev

      Pentcho

      No. Wavelength is NOT invariant on transformation. Any 'text book' that suggests that is perpetuating current inadequacies. in fact they do not do so, but only refer to the RELATIVE speed, without properly recognising that they are doing so.

      It is a 'shorthand simplification' which hides the mistake all sensible minds in physics are searching for.

      L'=L is only 'obvious' to those who can't be bothered to think and analyse carefully enough. Which I agree is most at present.

      I have clearly answered your question. You have not yet falsified my proposition. Quoting old theory in an attempt to disprove it's better replacement is invalid. This is what relativists do, so you should not resort to it.

      Why do you not accept or try to falsify the clear logic?

      I suggest only your beliefs in your old ingrained viewpoint stand in your way.

      If you test the more complete model in application I promise you will find it impeccable.

      Peter

        • [deleted]

        Peter,

        Yahoo did not find "kinetic transform problem".

        You wrote:

        "Maxwell's equations are, and have only ever been, only valid for each limited local space. They famously will not transform via the LT (a complex matter of 'partial time derivatives'). So the local spaces may then represent inertial frames. You should find plenty of references to this well known limitation which has never been resolved. If not I'll find some (or just see T E Phipps). All resolves with effectively an LT at the TZ."

        The space in which electromagnetic waves propagate according to Maxwell's equations is ubiquitous, i.e. it is the same in all vacuum that surrounds the earth and almost undisturbed in the air and in cosmic dust for many frequencies.

        With TZ you meant transition zone from near field to far field. This transition is not due to the refractory index of air but it depends on wavelength.

        I also guess you used LT not for Laplace transformation but for Lorentz transformation. The issue which has been convincingly addressed by Phipps should not be confused with your vague guesswork. Where wrote Phipps "local"?

        Eckard

        Eckard

        Predictions confirmed.

        The Integral/Ibis (X to Gamma) findings have confirmed the basis of predictions made regarding AGN's, quasar jets, blue shift and polarity etc. both in last years essay, referred in this years, (Inc. end notes) and particularly here; http://vixra.org/abs/1102.0016

        They are anyway of general interest. A short extract from todays ESA '1st decade' press release;

        "astronomers have detected polarised emission in three sources observed with INTEGRAL. The first detection of polarised gamma rays was achieved using data from the brightest source in the high-energy sky: the Crab Nebula, a supernova remnant consisting of a nebula with a pulsar at its core. The polarised component of the nebula's emission, revealed by INTEGRAL, appears to be aligned with the rotation axis of the pulsar, thus demonstrating that gamma rays are emitted in the vicinity of the central source - and possibly by the jets that stem from it."

        and perhaps more for Pentcho's interest;

        "Given the very large distance of the source, located almost 300 million light-years away from Earth, a team of astronomers has exploited these data to study how the light emitted by the source has propagated across the Universe before reaching us. In fact, if light rays with different polarisation states were to travel at slightly different velocities, as a result of the Lorentz invariance violation, this would leave a distinctive imprint on the data collected by INTEGRAL. Lorentz invariance violation is a symmetry breaking predicted in some of the theories that unify gravity and quantum physics. The study based on INTEGRAL data revealed no such effect: if such a symmetry violation is at play, it must occur at much higher energies than previously thought. The study also set a limit for the fundamental length scale of quantum gravity, which has to be smaller than 10^-48聽m."

        link; ESA INTEGRAL Oct 2012.

        Peter

        Eckard

        Maxwell's equations are not invariant under 1st order transformations. This means their domain is limited to a single (thus 'local') frame. In practice you'll find this domain equivalent to the near field, (or relevant to the 'near field' term) which, if you recall, you were kind enough to remind me of.

        I agree TZ position is lambda dependent. So is very small for light but large for radio waves. I thought I'd posted this extract from my new joint paper with JSM before;

        "Six different radio engineers familiar with antenna science, when asked for the equation for the TZ position, might all feel they know the precise answer. Yet each of their answers could be different. For wavelength L answers may range from L/2pi to 5L/2pi or 50D to 2/L to 2D^2/L where D is the radius of the transmitter (dish, or antenna length). For visible light this (Fraunhofer) transition distance from the surface of a small mass at rest is ~1 micron

        • [deleted]

        "a single (thus 'local') frame" ???

        • [deleted]

        Any discussion between sane people, no matter how heated, is based on elementary truths which are obvious and acceptable to both parties. That the motion of the observer cannot alter the wavelength is one of those truths, Peter.

        "vO is the velocity of an observer moving towards the source. This velocity is independent of the motion of the source. Hence, the velocity of waves relative to the observer is c + vO. (...) The motion of an observer does not alter the wavelength. The increase in frequency is a result of the observer encountering more wavelengths in a given time."

        Carl Mungan: "Consider the case where the observer moves toward the source. In this case, the observer is rushing head-long into the wavefronts, so that we expect v'>v. In fact, the wave speed is simply increased by the observer speed, as we can see by jumping into the observer's frame of reference. Thus, v'=v+v_o=v(1+v_o/v). Finally, the frequency must increase by exactly the same factor as the wave speed increased, in order to ensure that L'=L -> v'/f'=v/f. Putting everything together, we thus have: OBSERVER MOVING TOWARD SOURCE: L'=L; f'=f(1+v_o/v); v'=v+v_o."

        Pentcho Valev

        • [deleted]

        Congratulations Peter.

        Few theoretical physicists get the satisfaction of having made correct predictions confirmed by experiment, especially predictions that standard theory does not make.

        I think you should take full credit for your ideas. Could you quote the specific predictions from your vixra paper referenced above, explain how they match the new data, and how standard theory is not up to the job? This will help non-experts such as myself better understand and appreciate your work