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  • Post #304

Pentcho/Eckard

In 1905 Einstein presumed:

-light starts at a constant speed, ie independently of the speed of the entity involved

-light continues to travel at that speed unless impeded in some way

In SR this is also what he assumed because there is no gravitation, ie it is again in vacuo. In GR he also assumed this, because the effect on light, ie an example of an impediment to its travel, was attributed to gravitational forces.

Now, irrespective of why he thought so, the fact is that this is correct, because the creation of light is an atomic reaction (ie it is not collision/reflection), hence the same result every time, and like everything else, it will continue to travel at that speed unless impeded.

It is, just a moving entity. The speed of the observer is irrelevant. As I said in a post above, light is currently travelling between the chair and the waste basket in this room, and vice versa. There is NO physical difference between this circumstance and the one which involves light travelling to me. The ONLY difference is that I can process that light when received, chairs and waste baskets can not. But that is not physics, it is physiology, biology, sociology, etc.

The problem with relativity is that there is always a time delay between the physical occurrence, and the receipt of light from that occurrence. But Einstein conflated reality, as represented by light, and reality. So he attributed this delay to reality, with his idea that 'everything has its own time', which lead to a model of reality which has time as, effectively, another spatial dimension. The error in relativity has nothing to do with the speed of light, nor observation, in the sense of processing that light. Conflating light and reality has another important consequence, in that the speed of light becomes the determining factor, which it obviously in the physical representation of reality, aka light, but not reality, which is different. So the speed c, also becomes a surrogate for t, as well as being observational light. Being concerned with rate of change, t is a constant, irrespective of what is actually used in practice to measure it.

All arguments about the M&M experiments are relevant to those experiments and understanding what went wrong there, if anything, but they are irrelevant to relativity. Which is about the relative timing of the receipt of light, but they failed to differentiate light from reality, so thought the variable was at the other end of the process. Put simply, they thought existence occurs (which is when the light occurs) at a different time and then finishes up at the same time when received. Whereas, actually, existence (and hence light) occurs at the same time, but takes time to travel, so is received at different times depending (in pure conditions) on distance. Furthermore, that distance can alter whilst the light (which is really a series of lights) travels, thereby causing a differential between the rate of change in reality and the rate of change in the timing of receipt thereof.

Paul

When I wrote my essay, Marmet's paper "The overlooked Phenomena in the Michelson-Morley Experiment" was for a while not available to me. That's why I did not quote it. Marmet was not quite correct when he wrote that the Michelson-Morley ignored the influence of the velocity on the angle of reflection. Moreover, his Figures are rather confusing. Nonetheless he already came to the correct conclusion which is also experimentally confirmed by Feist.

Eckard

a month later
14 days later

  • [deleted]

  • Post #307

Eckard

Sorry this is rushed.

The flaw in your thinking is the presumption of 'nothing' as a reference. This cannot be achieved. Neither did people mean this.

"Maxwell imagined light an electromagnetic wave propagating in empty space with constant speed c relative to (abbreviated below as re) this hypothetical medium".

What he meant was that under 'perfect' conditions, any example of whatever constitutes 'light' always moves at the same, and a constant, speed. This is because its formation is the function of an atomic interaction, ie not a collision - the same interaction always resulting in the same speed. And, as with any other entity, light will keep moving at that original speed, and in the original direction, unless impeded in some way. The point is that when measured, that will involve something else which will be moving at a different speed and in a different direction. Measuring being a process involving the identification of difference by comparison.

In respect of Michelson, surely he was referring to light, and/or the ether through which it travels, both of which are something, not nothing.

Michelson (1881): The Relative Motion of the Earth and the Luminiferous Ether

Para 1:

"The undulatory theory of light assumes the existence of a medium called the ether, whose vibrations produce the phenomena of heat and light, and which is supposed to fill all space...Assuming then that the ether is at rest, the earth moving through it, the time required for light to pass from one point to another on the earth's surface, would depend on the direction in which it travels."

As I have said before, this is correct. Light wrt earth will render different results depending on how the measurement is effected. The point is not about the ether, but light. And all light cannot be deemed as the same physical entity, which it obviously is not. Light received from the same physical occurrence over 'there' is different to the light received over 'here'. It is just that the physical qualities which are utilsed in the subsequent processing if received by a sentient organism, are the same (or very nearly so). Similarly light received from a physical occurrence at a different time, is different (so too is the physical occurrence).

So, the question is, why was this effect not found. Which your essay may have identified. Certainly something went 'wrong', because the start assumption is correct.

Paul

  • [deleted]

  • Post #308

Paul,

Well, Maxwell imagined electromagnetic waves belonging to a hypothetical medium called ether, and Michelson was possibly skeptical about this idea when he wrote: "ASSUMING then that the ether is at rest, the earth moving through it, the time required for light to pass from one point to another on the earth's surface, WOULD depend on the direction in which it travels" [my emphases].

I do, however, not see the necessity to distinguish between the hypothetical ether and the hypothesis of just one preferred frame of reference called empty space. Likewise I deliberately use the letter c for the constant velocity of light as for the constant velocity of sound although c originally stood for celeritas not for constant re medium.

The question how do the single elements of the world depend on each other via empty space challenged e.g. Guericke to perform utterly important experiments. In contrast to Michelson, v. Guericke was not an agnostic. Your naive style of reasoning would not allow you to trust in the theory of electromagnetic fields.

My file "Michelson's Still Illusory Expectation" tries to show that the reasoning behind Michelson's experiment was still incomplete after Michelson and Morley took the objection by Potier in account.

Eckard

  • [deleted]

  • Post #309

Eckard

"I do, however, not see the necessity to distinguish between the hypothetical ether and the hypothesis of just one preferred frame of reference called empty space."

So what is the reference against which the comparison to establish difference (in this case speed) is being made, it has to be something. And whatever these entities are, a distinction is always made between 'ether' and 'light'. Also, what is "empty space"? My "naive reasoning" is just analysing phenomena at the generic level. For example, light is a specific physical entity and it moves.

Paul

Paul,

Be cautious with the notion nothing. Empty space "exists". Does zero exist? Addition of zero to something does not change anything. However multiplication by zero has an effect.

Consider empty space like a white sheet of paper. Once you have chosen two points on this empty space, you have made it a frame of reference where any other point is located.

Eckard

  • [deleted]

  • Post #311

Eckard

"Be cautious with the notion nothing. Empty space "exists"

Really? So, if it 'exists', what is it? Noting, somewhat obviously, that if it exists, it is therefore something, not nothing.

My original point being, apart from the fact that nothing cannot exist, it is impossible to reference to nothing, and any measurement involves a comparison (reference) to identify difference and must be made wrt something. And indeed, that something must remain the reference (or a factoring effected, which is the same thing) for various measurements to be comparable.

Your point about zero is irrelevant. That is a representational device, it is not being stated that zero exists. What is being stated is that there are none of something specific in a specified circumstance.

"Consider empty space like a white sheet of paper. Once you have chosen two points on this empty space, you have made it a frame of reference where any other point is located."

This is not correct either. As I have said before, when considering spatial relationship, the reference is a conceptual spatial matrix that is 'imposed' on physical reality. Then at any given point in time, any given physical entity can be 'mapped' onto it. Indeed, its spatial footprint is the spatial points 'occupied' at that given time. But to effect this, something, at that given time, has to be chosen as the spatial reference, in order to 'fix' the spatial grid. It cannot just 'float' about.

Think about it, when you say something is here, and something else is over there, what are you actually saying.

Paul

a month later
5 months later

Meanwhile I have to correct myself. While the expectation by Michelson and Morley was indeed still a bit incorrect, they already noticed this, and Michelson was already correct in 1881 in that Maxwell's idea of relative motion between earth and aether was untenable. Please find my explanation in this essay .

Eckard

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