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Dear Prof. Wharton,

I found your essay to be very original, and particularly the fact that it pointed out some aspect of our deepest understanding that I was not aware of was particularly refreshing.

It appears to me that your view of the LSU implies a "block universe" but I did not see any remark to that effect. Is that correct? If that is the case, does it also open the door to violations in causality? Finally, it seems to me that an acceptance of an LSU interpretation of entanglement "rationalizes away" the conceptual difficulties it poses. Should we not be careful that we don't "give up to soon" before we can find an explanation of a puzzling phenomenon?

I found it interesting that on two tangential points your essay and mine have complete agreement:

The notion that there are still hidden forms of anthropocentrism embedded in our current worldviews, and that the Path integral formulation provides a more fundamental way of understanding quantum mechanics. I hope that you may find the time to take a look at my essay and provide constructive feedback and criticism. I'd particularly appreciate your perspective on whether your think that some of the ideas in there are more in accord with the NSU or the LSU.

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    Hi Ken, here are the passages from your essay to keep in mind for the comments below:

    If one wants to place quantum theory into the spacetime of GR,

    one must use the Lagrangian Schema, solving the

    problem "all at once". Only then can the solution

    take into account the actual future measurement

    which, recall, is imposed as a boundary constraint

    on L. So an LSU-minded physicist, when encountering

    entanglement, would have no reason to add new

    dimensions. The "spooky" link between entangled

    particles would merely be joint correlations enforced

    by virtue of both particles contributing to the same

    global action.[12]

    We can treat the universe as a global, four dimensional

    boundary-value problem, where each subset of the universe can be solved in exactly the

    same manner, with exactly the same rules. Stories

    can be told about what happens between quantum

    measurements, and those very measurements can be

    enfolded in a bigger region, to simultaneously tell

    a bigger story.

    Beautiful essay, and as you know, we are with you on: rejecting Hilbert space realism and realism about Schrodinger dynamics, block universe, and the use of future boundary conditions ( see http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1393 for example). But we want to explore the logic of your essay as a stalking horse. As you know, both the NM formalism and the LM formalism are compatible with either a block universe or say presentism. And as you know, both the LM and NM formalism can be done with or without a future boundary condition. So nothing ontological follows from the use or dis-use of these formalisms, which is to say they must be interpreted to get out ontological conclusions such as block universe. So you have not given us any argument for a block universe apart from the claim that it would allow us to get rid of Hilbert space. But even if you had argued for a block universe, is block universe either necessary or sufficient for the non-existence of Hilbert space? Is a block universe either necessary or sufficient for a time-symmetric account of QM which provides a local account of entanglement? None of these conclusions are established in your essay. So you have not argued for a block universe directly and you have not established its necessity to your ONTOLOGICAL conclusion about LSU over NSU. We already knew that a psi-epistemic account makes the measurement problem go away and we already knew that future boundary conditions could be used to tell a local story about entanglement, nothing new there. But from this it doesn't follow that the future is equally real or 'already there'. What you need is an argument to the effect that if NSU is true and block universe false then getting rid of Hilbert space, use future boundary conditions, etc., becomes much harder, but there is no such argument in your essay. As far as we can see, someone could (and they do) still believe in NSU/reject block universe and adopt all your other suggestions. In your defense you do suggest the possibility of finding a formalism that demands the use of future boundary conditions, that would certainly be a good start.

    Second, your essay doesn't provide us with any positive alternative interpretation of either NRQM or QFT. The only thing we can conclude is that you want a psi-epistemic account and to preserve locality. So we would like to see your interpretation of QM, hear how it helps with larger problems about unification, how it explains presumably unique QM phenomena like discrete outcomes, etc. It is clear that you want "QM systems" to have definite position values with worldlines and continuous mediation "between measurements". In other words, in spite of all your NSU bashing, you still insist on that type of explanation for the QM so long as it's in spacetime and not Hilbert space; so for you, even if you found your new formalism that demanded the use of future boundary conditions, you still assume there would always be a 3+1 type explanation of a NM sort between the measurements, you just have to work backwards to get it. So in fact, the only thing non-NSU-like about your universe is that it's a block universe, but as we suggested above, it isn't clear that is much of a difference maker by itself. Also notice that the use of future boundary conditions doesn't require that QM systems have definite worldlines and the only reason to assume they must is some sort of NSU prejudice.

    Ken says the following at the end of his essay:

    We can treat the universe as a global, four-dimensional

    boundary-value problem, where each

    subset of the universe can be solved in exactly the

    same manner, with exactly the same rules. Stories

    can be told about what happens between quantum

    measurements, and those very measurements can be

    enfolded in a bigger region, to simultaneously tell

    a bigger story. And most importantly, such models

    will suggest further models, with alterations that

    only make sense in a Lagrangian framework { perhaps

    a local constraint like L=0, or treating the

    Euler-Lagrange equations as just an approximation

    to a fundamentally underdetermined problem.

    So for anyone in the audience listening, our post to Ken here is one shot in a long series of exchanges where we try to convince him that he simply doesn't go far enough down the rabbit hole in his rejection of NSU. If you want to see what a complete rejection of NSU-type thinking (we call it dynamism) really looks like and what it can do well beyond just interpreting QM, read our essay. We don't write as well as Ken unfortunately, but we do paint a more detailed picture. In our essay you will find that our fundamental equation (or toy model of it anyway) might be the sort of new fundamental explanation that Ken is looking for. But our account requires giving up much more of the NSU-type picture than Ken's does. The pay-off however, is much greater across the board.

      Thanks, glad it caught your interest. I suspect we're talking about two very different things, however. Perhaps you're concerned with objects that in principle follow some well-defined dynamical equations, but those equations just happen to be too complex to calculate to the required precision. I'm concerned with global rules that apply on the level of the Lagrangian density and the action, but have no corresponding Newtonian-style equations that always can describe time-evolution from a given state.

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      I'm largely following David Tong and Jan Zaanen in reference to the fermion sign problem. "[T]oo complex to calculate with the required precision" doesn't even begin to describe what Zaanen calls "the nightmare of modern physics." There's no known mathematics capable of dealing with it and if Matthias Troyer and Uwe-Jens Wiese are right there probably won't be.

      But thanks very much for the response.

      • [deleted]

      Dear Dr Wharton

      First quote from your essay: "The LSU blends time and space together just

      like GR, while the NSU has to grapple with a dynamic evolution that seems to single out time as\special".

      In my essay I write about this issue ,but contrary.

      See my letter to Dr Stephen Weinberg.

      http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413

        Hi Peter,

        I'm afraid that I still can't find the commonality between our ideas, but thanks for your nice words, and best of luck in the contest.

        Dear Ben,

        Thank you very much for the thoughtful questions. You're asking a lot of the same questions that I am, as I pursue this research program. Here are some attempts at answers, based on my current thinking. (Numbers match to your questions.)

        1) The key question is why the path integral works in the first place. If you have to sum first, and then square, then you're correct: one needs all the paths to be "real". But there's another way to "double" the paths so that you never need to square the sum (Sinha and Sorkin, 1991), in which case one can imagine that the universe is just choosing one of these possibilities (weighted appropriately), and the unchosen paths aren't "real". The problem with this, as noted in that paper, is that if one is taking the particle perspective, then some of those probability weights have to be negative, in order to get interference. BUT -- I currently think that a field-configuration-path view can solve this problem, especially if a similar "doubling" is used. (To see my arguments for fields vs. particles, you can try my previous essay in this series, "quantum theory without quantization".) This is actually my main research focus right now.

        2) Feynman's approach does indeed take the Lagrangian that classically yields a real, second-order Euler-Lagrange equation, and (via the path integral) makes equivalent predictions to a complex, first-order Schrodinger equation. (Dropping one order is offset by the real->complex transition.) But I'm not interested in generating NSU-style equations... The question is how to quantize a classical Lagrangian (such as GR's) without ever making such a step in the first place. No, it's not known how to do this yet, and I don't know of anyone else who is really working on it. (I'm looking forward to reading your paper, and hope to get to it soon.)

        3) The latter. I mean, look at how beautiful GR is, with a few brilliant principles guiding the whole thing. Then look at the conceptual mess of QM and QFT. Which is more likely to be on the right track, especially when it comes to spacetime? Sure, maybe GR is also incorrect at some level, but it seems to be to be closer to the ultimate truth than QM (again, especially when it comes to spacetime).

        4) Well, in any unified theory along the lines that I envision, the metric would also be solved "all at once", along with any matter fields. So an external hypersurface boundary condition on a manifold would generate the structure of the spacetime within that boundary as an effect. Is this giving up traditional causality? Sure. But traditional causality is just another aspect of the NSU. (Also, see the recent piece on my work with Huw Price.)

        Maybe one way to think about it is to make an analogy with a high-Q laser cavity that contains a standing-wave EM field. Flipping time and space, the analogy to the NSU view would be that the left mirror causes the field, and the nodes of the field then determine where the right mirror is allowed to be. (Sort of a left-to-right causal order.) The LSU view is that both mirrors determine the allowed modes of the field that can be inside the cavity. Extending the field to include the spacetime metric, this solution would also determine how far apart the mirrors were in the first place. The global solution might then still look like a "left-to-right causal" relationship, but it would be an illusion.

        5) Yes, I like the continuum -- and here I'll again point you to my last essay, 'quantum theory without quantization'. If it's not still on the fqxi site, a copy is here. Is this anthropocentric? I don't see how, but maybe it's a blind spot of mine. (Furthermore, I don't like Planck scale arguments for discreteness, because those scales aren't Lorentz invariant. Doubly special relativity doesn't solve the problem, I don't think, without introducing bigger problems at macroscopic scales.)

        As far as why we live in 4D, sure, I'd like to know that, but would be content with an ultimate theory that took that as a given. My guess is that once we found an ultimate theory, we could experiment with other dimensionalities and at least narrow down the coherent possibilities. But it seems tough to do that without a working ultimate theory.

        Thanks again for some great questions!

        Ken

        Hi Edwin,

        Thanks for the kind words! I'll be looking forward to your comments.

        Ah, in that case there might be more overlap than I thought. I'll do some reading and let you know if I find any connections.

        Thanks, Peter -- good luck to you as well.

        Frank, I'm afraid I don't really follow much of your comment, but good luck developing your ideas. Friedemann is an adjunct faculty member in our department, but he doesn't teach here, and is mostly at SETI. He's working on some very interesting things these days...

        Hi Armin,

        Yes, the LSU assumes a block universe, but so does the NSU and all of modern physics, as I see it. (With the exception of the measurement problem as applied to the standard quantum state; for more on this telling mismatch you'll have to dig up my entry to the very first FQXi contest.)

        Denying a block universe is basically saying that we're parameterizing physics all wrong, and we shouldn't have functions that look like the classical Electric field E(x,y,z,t), but instead things like E(x,y,z,t_clock,t_obs), where t_clock is usual time and t_obs is the time at which one is discussing E. Maybe someone will develop such a physical theory, but until they do, physics assumes a block universe.

        As for your second question, it depends on what you mean by "violations in causality". See the recent piece on my work with Huw Price.

        Also, I'm not trying to "rationalize" away entanglement -- I'm trying to come up with a spacetime-based LSU model that quantitatively yields all of the same correlations as the standard configuration space version. I don't have it yet, but there are no conceptual show-stoppers. As for whether I'm 'giving up too soon'... I'm actually just exploring an alternate path towards the same goal. I don't think the century-old NSU-approach to quantum phenomena would suffer if a few researchers headed off in a new, promising direction. :-)

        If your entry concerns the path integral, I'll put it near the top of my to-read-list... Thanks for the pointer!

        Hi Yuri,

        I think I disagree with Weinberg's response to your interesting question -- I don't think that you can discretize space while not discretizing time, at least not in any GR-friendly way.

        That said, I'm not a particular fan of discretization at all -- at least not the conventional justifications for it. (That was the last essay contest, which I linked to above.)

        • [deleted]

        My essay devoted at first to splitting space from time.

        GR-is not completed theory,as SR.Why i must be friendly to her?

        • [deleted]

        Some of the fundamental stuff:

        (1.) Zaanen:

        Quantum Critical Electron Systems: The Uncharted Sign Worlds

        Mottness collapse and statistical quantum criticality

        (From "Mottness collapse" above:) "For 'everything else' this connection with classical statistical physics is severed as the quantum partition sum contains both positive and negative 'probabilities': the fermion (or 'quantum') signs. On the one hand, these represent the greatest technical embarrassment of theoretical physics because there is not even a hint of mathematics that works in the presence of signs [30]."

        Pacifying the Fermi-liquid: battling the devious fermion signs

        Fermions, fermions, fermions! (PowerPoint converted to PDF)

        (2.) Troyer and Wiese:

        Computational complexity and fundamental limitations to fermionic quantum Monte Carlo simulations (Main paper ... cited in all Zaanen above)

        Quantum Monte Carlo and the negative sign problem (PowerPoint converted to PDF)

        Hi Michael,

        Yes, lots of points of agreement. But let's take the disagreements one point at a time.

        First, you bring up the block universe. This is a red-herring that has little to do with NSU, LSU, or anything directly related. In my mind, the arguments against the block universe (arguments for presentism, or the growing block) are simply are not consistent with SR, GR, or how we parameterize physical events (see my post to Armin above). I know that lots of philosophers (and some physicists) seem to think that presentism or the growing-block is potentially viable, but the burden of proof is on them, not me. Smolin is trying to change physics to add a "now", which is fine, but physics does not currently have a "now". And most of the anti-block arguments sneak in multiple time dimensions in practically every sentence. Even the way you phrased it --" But from this it doesn't follow that the future is equally real or 'already there' ", is using the word "already" that treats time as a subject while using the word "future" that treats time as an object. Those are two different times (the time at which the future is discussed, and the time of the future in question), ergo one needs a model with two time dimensions to even have a physics-based discussion about presentism.

        I'm confused about your sentence that reads: " As far as we can see, someone could (and they do) still believe in NSU/reject block universe and adopt all your other suggestions." This baffles me, and leads me to think I didn't write a very good essay, given that my primary suggestion is to reject NSU. And while I maintain that ordinary NSU physics implies a block universe, LSU *certainly* implies a block universe. What do future boundary conditions mean to someone who doesn't think the future is "real"? Who is "someone"?

        For your next big point, I grant that I have no detailed model, just some of the pieces. You guys are way ahead of me on that front. (Actually, I have a beautifully simple model (hinted at the end of my essay), but I'm having a devilish time working out the math, so I don't yet know if it generates the right probabilities.) I also would like to see how my (future) model deals with all these things, but it's always nice to map out potential show-stoppers before one gets that far. In my experience, all of the proposed show-stoppers come from people implicitly assuming NSU without realizing it. Therefore I wrote this essay to help lay out the fact that NSU is a pervasive assumption, not a necessary logical position.

        You write: " you still assume there would always be a 3+1 type explanation of a NM sort between the measurements, you just have to work backwards to get it.", but that's not quite right. In an LSU model, once you work backward to fill in the 4D spacetime, you can translate that 4D description to a 3+1D *description* of what is going on between measurements. But I do not think it will be "Newtonian", in that it will not always be a solution to some master differential equation , and I do not think it will be an "explanation", just a movie-like description of what actually happened. For an *explanation*, one will have to consider the whole 4D-LSU picture. Hopefully this makes it clearer how much difference there is between the NSU and the sort of LSU that I envision.

        You end that part with "Also notice that the use of future boundary conditions doesn't require that QM systems have definite worldlines and the only reason to assume they must is some sort of NSU prejudice." First of all, you know I'm looking for field descriptions, not particle descriptions, so "worldlines" is a bit misleading. But I'm not sure what you're getting at, exactly... asking the universe to have some particular reality between measurements doesn't seem NSU or LSU, just *realist*. Again, that intermediate solution need not, in general, solve a differential equation.

        Finally, you seem to imply that your RBW gives up "more of the NSU-type" picture than I want to myself, but I think you're conflating much of the realism of standard classical physics with the Newtonian Schema, as defined in my essay. Classical physics works on a continuum; does this make the continuum in any way part of the Newtonian Schema? No -- see the definition of NSU in section I. (After all, my main example of the NS is a computer, which are typically digital!) I grant that RBW gives up more of standard physics than I want to, but let's not throw out perfectly valid concepts unless we need to. What quantum phenomena force a spacetime-realist to give up is the NSU, not spacetime itself. Maybe spacetime will have to go as well, but I'm never going to make that leap without first undertaking a much better exploration of the spacetime-realist-LSU landscape.

        Best, Ken

        You certainly don't have to be friendly to GR or SR -- many quantum theorists take the same view.

        For me, I guess I just have too much respect for Einstein's hard-won insights, and too little respect for our human intuitions about time.

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        My favorite quote from Einstein is:

        "What I am really interested in is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom."

        Dear Professor Wharton,

        Thank you for your eloquent essay. As I am one of those lay persons for whom the Lagrangian approach is "non-intuitive", I can't pretend to follow all of your arguments in its favor. Yet, your criticisms of the Newtonian approach seem clear enough to me. My corresponding thought is that the laws of physics are algorithms summarizing, after the fact, empirical data. One tends to forget that, in favor of a notion that they have some independent causal power to "determine" the future. This is so only to the extent they can be extrapolated to new situations. Otherwise, 'determine' can mean only the human sense in which one does one's best to determine what is, or will be, the case, or will be observed. In other words, dynamical equations do not have causal power and do not describe determinism in nature, only the logical determinism that belongs to mathematical systems, which are products of definition. Whether the sample of data used to fit the equation to reality consists of an 'initial condition' (NSU) or of 'boundary condition' (LSU) seems to me irrelevant to this point, though there may be, as you say, advantages to the latter approach.

        In any case, it seems common sense that the universe can "compute itself" only in the trivial sense that it is an analogue of itself--an "analogue computer". Even if the universe is ultimately discretized, in no way can we assume that it is a digital computer that "processes information" in the way that our computers do, obeying the laws of physics as a computer obeys its program. Such beliefs are but the worst sort of anthropomorphism, embracing current technology as the metaphor for reality. But that is nothing new in physics, which early embraced clockworks and machines as models, and now the computer as universal machine.

        Dan

          Dear Ken

          First of all it's great to know that we are neighbors living in San Jose. I also have been a part-time lecturer at San Jose State in the past and have several faculty friends there. I would like to get in touch with you and meet you if you would like to share the mutually beneficial results of our work.

          Your conclusion -"The universe is not a computer" is fully vindicated by the results presented in my paper - -" From Absurd to Elegant Universe". It is shown that the observed universe behavior can be predicted via proper inclusion of the missing physics of the well-known spontaneous decay of particles. This new physical understanding that is missing from QM and GR provides a better alternative than merely using an alternative mathematical scheme to solve the QM mysteries, inconsistencies, and understanding the universe. Inclusion of this missing physics provides the degree of freedom in the universe that a computer does not have. The QM uncertainty is shown to be an artifact of this degree of freedom so far ignored in physics/cosmology theories. There is no need to "....assuming the NSU must be correct, and using suspiciously anthropocentric reasoning to recast the universe in an image of our quantum calculations" as you have rightly said in your paper.

          My paper provides a new fundamental understanding of the Cosmological Constant and relativistic universe expansion based on spontaneous motion. The current QM and GR paradoxes and inconsistencies are shown to be artifacts of the missing (hidden) physics of the well-known phenomenon of spontaneous decay. A new Gravity Nullification Model for Universe Expansion (GNMUE) is proposed that integrates the missing physics of the spontaneous mass-energy conversion into a simplified form of general relativity. The model predicts the observed expansion of the universe and galaxies and other data. The model provides answers to key fundamental questions and resolves paradoxes among general relativity, quantum mechanics, and cosmology. It also bridges the gap between quantum mechanics and relativity theories via revealing relativistic understanding of the inner workings of quantum mechanics. The impact of the new understanding on widely-accepted fundamental assumptions is discussed and a new wholesome perspective on reality is provided.

          I would greatly appreciate your comments on my paper. Please feel free to get in touch with me at avsingh@alum.mit.edu.

          Best Regards

          Avtar Singh