Essay Abstract

The notion of ``location" physics really needs is exclusively the one of ``detection at a given detector" and the time for each such detection is most primitively assessed as the readout of some specific material clock. The redundant abstraction of a macroscopic spacetime organizing all our particle detections is unproblematic and extremely useful in the classical-mechanics regime. But I here observe that in some of the contexts where quantum mechanics is most significant, such as quantum tunneling through a barrier, the spacetime abstraction proves to be cumbersome. And I argue that in quantum-gravity research we might limit our opportunities for discovery if we insist on the availability of a spacetime picture.

Author Bio

Researcher in Theoretical Physics as Sapienza University of Rome. Previously worked at CERN, Univ Neuchatel, Oxford Univ, MIT. PhD from Boston University. Was awarded an FQXi Large Grant in 2008

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  • [deleted]

Minkowski spacetime is a consequence of Einstein's 1905 two postulates. Are you suggesting the postulates are true but the consequence should be rejected?

Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

    • [deleted]

    Dear Giovanni,

    I am not contra to the spacetime, I am pro their divorce.

    See my essay http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413

    Hi Giovanni,

    When I started studying physics I would have thought that critique of Einstein's theory is something like a sacrilege. But things change. I really enjoyed reading your essay.

    Kind regards, Frank

      It is late. I did not mean the theory itself but its geometric aspect.

      Frank

      It is simpler still to admit the wackyness of the foundations of quantum theory itself rather than going after spacetime, especially since GR has been experimentally better confirmed (by several orders of magnitude) than the crown jewel of quantum theory (namely QED).

      Nevertheless, Good luck, Giovanni, for the essay competition.

      Joy

      • [deleted]

      The simplest thing is to admit that the speed of light does depend on the speed of the light source - the "recourse to contracting lengths, local time, or Lorentz transformations" was a costly mistake:

      http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Its-Roots-Banesh-Hoffmann/dp/0486406768

      Relativity and Its Roots, Banesh Hoffmann: "Moreover, if light consists of particles, as Einstein had suggested in his paper submitted just thirteen weeks before this one, the second principle seems absurd: A stone thrown from a speeding train can do far more damage than one thrown from a train at rest; the speed of the particle is not independent of the motion of the object emitting it. And if we take light to consist of particles and assume that these particles obey Newton's laws, they will conform to Newtonian relativity and thus automatically account for the null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment without recourse to contracting lengths, local time, or Lorentz transformations. Yet, as we have seen, Einstein resisted the temptation to account for the null result in terms of particles of light and simple, familiar Newtonian ideas, and introduced as his second postulate something that was more or less obvious when thought of in terms of waves in an ether."

      Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

      Giovanni

      Simpler than the winner of the last 3 world simpleton championships (in the famous words of Blackadder) "observers in relative motion do not share the same time." Precisely as you propose. (Pentcho this is the subtle point you missed). If what is termed a 'space time event' can grow and shrink on transformation, (change of kinetic state) then so must the length between peaks of a wave.

      I loved your incisive essay Giovanni. I too considered "detection at a given detector" and analyse it's massive (lol) consequences. I can't agree all agree with the clear truth of your suggestion; "...over the last century we gradually came to appreciate that there would be no spacetime without particles."

      I've been working on a re-interpretation of 'spacetime' with others including John Minkowski, which wirks well, and we believe the simplest of simpletons could comprehend if only they could drop the assumptions around the earlier interpretations. You beautifully show these assumptions as questionable and point in the same direction.

      I hope you may be able to read and comment on my essay (beneath the kinetic theatre).

      Congratulations on a fine and important essay.

      Peter

        dear Frank and Peter

        many thanks for the encouragement!

        dear Peter and Yuri

        I'll have to catch up on reading the other essays. It was hard enough to finish my essay on time for the deadline (August is a holiday period in Italy...and my kids correctly make every effort to remind me of that...)

        ciao Joy

        how is everything?

        as you know a few moons ago I would have given an assessment very similar to yours

        but gradually I developed the intuition that the most serious difficulties are at the interface between quantum theory and relativistic spacetime inferences

        and I am intrigued by the challenge of reassessing all this while weakening our insistence on the robustness of spacetime inferences

        it is interesting that both you and Darth (thanks Darth) look at things from the perspective of which challenge is simpler: quantum mechanics (/quantum gravity) or spacetime...I would go after all opportunities of finding new insight experimentally without imposing much prejudice on which avenues look more promising

        dear Pentcho

        as you can see from my essay I am not allowing myself much room for assessments such as "true postulates" and surely not for "true consequences of true postulates"

        In relation to your question I am only allowing myself to take notice of the fact that the predictions of relativistic theories have been very successful. Those predictions concern the readouts of our detectors and clocks, when arranged appropriately. The spacetime inferences based on those readouts have been so far very successful, but it is an experimental question whether or not those spacetime inferences will be allowed in all experimental setups. Most notably I fear that we could miss on some discoveries if instead of handling the availability of spacetime inferences as an experimental issue we adopted an unquestioning attitude toward spacetime

        best regards

        Giovanni

          Ciao Giovanni,

          It is good to know your kids are making you keep your priorities straight.

          Well, I agree with you that "the most serious difficulties are at the interface between quantum theory and relativistic spacetime inferences", but the question of the century is: What must give?

          You are right, of course, to "go after all opportunities of finding new insight experimentally without imposing much prejudice on which avenues look more promising." The latter would be like looking for the keys where light is, not where they are lost.

          All the best,

          Joy

          dear Pentcho

          I don't think other aspects of your post really apply to my approach...

          but "protective stupidity" could perhaps be adapted...I am concerned about the implications of our instinctive desire to let Nature conform to our expectations about it...

          cheers

          Giovanni

            • [deleted]

            The problem is straightforward, Giovanni. You seem to reject the consequent (spacetime) but then refuse to question the truth of the antecedent (Einstein's 1905 postulates). Such a behaviour is incorrect when the theory is DEDUCTIVE.

            Best regards, Pentcho

            • [deleted]

            I totally agree with Joy Christian

            it is well Darth Vador, you make a good job.

            Interesting strategy.

            Wawww impressing, you are si intelligent.Wawww all people are very impressed.Wawww incredible of revolutions and innovations. Incredible intelligence. Incredible checking of algorythms.Wawww probably still genius of net. wawww you are strong. Impressing, really. I am so impressed by the eqautions also, wawww the maths are incredible. I have never seen that.Even Euler will not understand. Impressing dear team.Really. There is no words for your intelligence. You are probably elected. So impressing.

            Incredible lesson of life. I have understood the humility due to your sincerity and of course your incredible intelligence. I am not the same man due to your high intelligent strategy. I thank you, really, without you, never I will understand this Universe.

            ps It is not like this that I am going to be less parano.

            spherically yours.

            what a world.

            • [deleted]

            Giovanni,

            You did question the truth of Einstein's 1905 postulates in the past:

            http://discovermagazine.com/2008/mar/13-e-nste-n

            "Six iconoclasts who could revolutionize physics - again. (...) 4. Giovanni Amelino-Camelia: 42, University of Rome-Sapienza, Italy. Body of work: His "doubly special relativity" posits that the supposedly constant speed of light actually depends on its wavelength and that space has a minimum distance. His theory could unify physics and help explain the early growth of the universe, but experimental proof seems to be a tall order. Einsteinian trait: Rejects accepted physics on the basis of logic arguments."

            Why are you so timid now?

            Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

            Hi Giovanni:

            I thoroughly enjoyed your well-written paper and fully agree with your conclusion - " .....in some of the contexts where quantum mechanics is most significant, such as quantum tunneling through a barrier, the spacetime abstraction proves to be cumbersome. And I argue that in quantum-gravity research we might limit our opportunities for discovery if we insist on the availability of a spacetime picture."

            Not only the above conclusions are vindicated in my paper - -" From Absurd to Elegant Universe", but also it is shown (figure 1) that since spacetime dilates at quantum particles' speeds (V close to C), observing or limiting quantum phenomena to fixed or classical spacetime departs from physical realty leading to the well-known inconsistencies and QM paradoxes. My paper proposes a new model for the missing physics of spontaneous decay that explains the inner workings of QM and demystifies the quantum observations resolving many of its paradoxes and inconsistencies with relativity theory. As you point out, this has never been done, and hence, the QM mysteries and misinterpretations continue to prevail.

            The model predicts the observed expansion of the universe and galaxies and other data. The model provides answers to key fundamental questions and resolves paradoxes among general relativity, quantum mechanics, and cosmology. The impact of the new understanding on widely-accepted fundamental assumptions is discussed and a new wholesome perspective on reality is provided.

            I would greatly appreciate your comments on my paper.

            Best Regards

            Avtar Singh

            Hi Giovanni

            I read your interesting and thought-provoking essay. I have some comments and doubts about some issues that I would be grateful if you could make some comments. You mention that:

            But in some sense we never actually "see" spacetime, we never "detect spacetime", and over the last century we gradually came to appreciate that there would be no spacetime without particles.

            You argue against space-time, but it was not clear to me what new conceptual framework or formulation you propose to replace space-time. For instance, in thermodynamics time is not an indispensable item for the calculation of the physical quantities, by only knowing the pressure, the temperature and the volume one can predict the outcome of a system no matter how much time elapses. To be honest, I did not get well why you see space-time redundant, the arguments you lay down appear to me somewhat messy, in what sense you think they are redundant?

            On the other hand, I have been studying the problems of the measurement of the one-way speed of light and of clock synchronization and one of your statements call my attention particularly this: "Alice and Bob establish that they are in relative rest at a distance L with synchronized clocks."

            According to my research the one-way speed of light has been never measured and clock synchronization a la Einstein assumes that the one-speed of light is isotropic which turns out to be redundant and thus a dead end. I have realized that clock synchronization has become a non-trivial task as at first sight it may seem.

            Moreover, you mentioned in relation to the aether that:

            I shall leave these questions to the appetites of philosophers... And then quote Poincaré:...Whether the ether exists or not matters little - let us leave that to the metaphysicians... Later you argue that the concept was rule out from physics because it turned out to be useless.

            However, in my essay I hold the opposite opinion that reviving the aether it is more useful to solve most of the present problems of physics. Bell, Dirac and others contented that the situation of the aether in 1905-1915 was quite different from the situation of the aether in the middle of the XX century. This seems to me very plausible and I discuss in my essay some of the misconceptions around this concept. I claim that certain assumptions should be revived in physics because of their usefulness. One case of this was the notion of light as a particle brought back to life by Einstein. I would like to quote what Newton thought about the aether and its connection with gravity (Vesselin Petkov also holds that gravity is not a force and thus quantization of gravity is chimera), which I think it could be of great relevance to physics:

            "Gravity is the result of a condensation causing a flow of ether with a corresponding thinning of the ether density associated with the increased velocity of flow..."

            To make even clearer that Newton was actually Cartesian in the philosophical matters of gravity, in a letter to Bentley in 1692 Newton wrote:

            "It is inconceivable that inanimate brute matter should, without the mediation of something else which is not material, operate upon and affect other matter, without mutual contact, as it must do if gravitation in the sense of Epicurus be essential and inherent in it. And this is one reason why I desired you would not ascribe 'innate gravity' to me. That gravity should be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act upon another at a distance, through a vacuum, without the mediation of anything else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an ABSURDITY, that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking can ever fall into it."

            Making the assumption that the quantum vacuum is some sort of fluid (as the CERN experiments have revealed) it has been shown that the bending of light due to the presence of a massive object can be equivalently explained by a gradient in the refractive index of the vacuum.

            Finally you mention that:

            But how should one describe the position of the particle when it is formally "inside" the barrier? And especially how much time does it take a particle to quantum-tunnel through a barrier?

            Besides reconsidering the aether in physics one should get rid of the notion of particle. Instead, I propose to use solitons which, as it is well known in several field of mathematics and physics, behave as particles in all aspects. The essay of Jarek Duda explains all the similitudes and at the same time the advantages of dealing with solitions in physics instead of particles. If one incorporates these two ingredients into physics the wave-particle duality disappears and experiments such as the double-slit experiment become quite intuitive and easy to handle.

            I wish you good luck in the contest and I would be grateful if you could leave me some comments about my essay.

            Israel

            dear Pentcho

            I am indeed more than willing

            to "question the truth of Einstein's 1905 postulates"

            actually I do not assign any truth to any postulates (my understanding is that "truth" is of interest for professions different from mine....)

            I am the type of physicist more intrigued by the challenge of finding the boundaries of theories, rather than elaborating more and more instances of success of any given theory

            and I take as working assumption that all theories have a limited realm of applicability, so for each of them I expect we will eventually find its "boundary of applicability"

            best regards

            Giovanni