Pentcho,

Regarding your comment that I have mistakes by saying that gravitational time dilation really exists. The best way that I can answer that is that if you are correct, then relativity is in much worse shape than what I point out in my essay! But I hope you appreciate my approach in that I take Einstein and mainstream relativists at their word on a lot of relativity and still show that all of it can't possibly work.

And regarding your Hoffman reference with the accelerating sky laboratory - I never endorsed Einstein's 1911 model. (I never said it's impossible either - just not consistent with the 1918 paradox resolution.) As a matter of fact, once one accepts the symmetry break during inertial part of trip - you wouldn't need the simulated gravity anyway. If there is a separate contribution from acceleration, another possibility is that it is a local effect, placing a local stress on the system which would impede the normal rate which time elapses in that frame.

I appreciate the contribution from you and Daryl on this.

John,

Thanks. I am looking forward to reading your essay. We have similar (but not identical) viewpoints on time anyway. As for the revolution - its already here.

Elliot,

Thanks for the great review! That's one of the great things about shaking the impossibilities out of physics. It makes the investigation of other theories possible. We both agree on what's wrong with relativity. From there you and I have different theories of what can take its place. You have MDT and I have the fundamental behavior theory of time. If I turn out to be correct - you can ship me a bottle of diet soda from California. If you turn out to be correct, you will have to let me know what your beverage of choice is (not too expensive though).

Thomas,

Thanks. Yes I can be long winded. I do that sometimes to try to be as inclusive as possible since readers have varying levels of expertise. I will try to get to your essay soon.

Bill,

Thanks but I never described any step or frame from a human intuition point of view so I'm not sure what you think is misguided about my careful step-by-step analysis.

Thank you all for your participation in this important discussion. I am currently making my way down the thread of posts and will resume the replies where I left of soon.

  • [deleted]

Dear Chris Kennedy,

There is no way I can express my gratitude to you for your essay, so I will not even try. I now claim for myself the title of being the undisputed biggest crank ever. I can refute Einstein completely. If you would be kind enough to read my essay Sequence Consequence, you will be rewarded by finding out something Einstein apparently rarely thought about. It is called reality.

Einstein's principal ideas were called the "General Theory of Relativity" and "Special Theory Of Relativity." They purported to explain mathematically how the Universe operated in three unified spatial dimensions.

One real appearing Universe can only be perpetually occurring in one real here for one real now always staying in one real dimension once. All real stuff has to always stay in one real dimension once. There is only one real or imagined 1 of anything once.

According to Einstein, An abstract ever expanding Universe can appear in a unified three abstract space/time dimensions. That is unreal. How is the abstract stuff distributed? Does the heavy abstract stuff helpingly congregate in abstract space/time dimension A, abstract medium mass stuff gather in abstract space/time dimension B, and the abstract light matter stuff only convene in abstract space/time dimension C. It is like the old graphic puzzle where you have to draw three separate lines representing water, gas, and electricity piping all going into three separate houses without any of the lines crossing.

Einstein's theories depend exclusively on what abstract observers ought to observe, and how abstract clocks should read. Always keep in mind that the theoretical shortest distance between two theoretical points is not a straight line. It is a theoretical limited point of a lesser dimension. The farthest theoretical distance two abstract points can be placed apart is an abstract straight line of infinite length. The only real distance between two real points is a real curve.

No two snowflakes of the trillions that have fallen have ever been found to be identical. One real Universe can only obey one real law. Every one of those sparks created at CERN has to be unique. There is only ever 1 of anything real or imagined once.

  • [deleted]

Hi, Mr. Kennedy,

All acceleration can easily be eliminated by letting a single clock pass two fixed clocks, as shown:

[C]-->

[A]------------------------[B]

----------------------------[C]-->

[A]------------------------[B]

Since Clock C was already moving inertially prior to its reaching and passing Clock A, and since C does not stop at Clock B, but merely meets B in passing, there is absolutely no acceleration involved.

If clocks A and B were synchronized prior to C's arrival at A, and if C matches A when it passes A, then C will NOT match B when it passes B.

This raises the important question Why do Clocks B and C not match?

Unfortunately for those of us who wish for simplicity, there are still two possible causes involved, viz., (i) Einsteinian synchronization, and (ii) intrinsic clock slowing. (By the latter, I am referring to the similar physical situation where two people who were born at approx. the same time but whose ages now differ greatly. This is an intrinsic age difference.)

Fortunately, (i) can easily be eliminated by using triplets.

Let's use Ann, Bob, and Carl. At the start, Bob passes Ann as their ages match, then Bob goes on to meet Carl as their ages also match, but when Carl goes on to catch up with Ann, their ages do NOT match.

Bob passes Ann when they are both 5 years old:

----------------------[Bob5]-->

----------------------[Ann5]

Bob goes on to meet Carl, who happens to be the same age as Bob:

-----------------------------------------[Bob9]-->.6c

----------------------------------.6c

  • [deleted]

My post looked ok in preview. I will try again with the diagrams.

the 3-clock diagrams:

[C]-->

[A]------------------[B]

----------------------[C]-->

[A]------------------[B]

------------------------------------------------

the 3-people diagrams:

Bob passes Ann when they are both 5 years old:

----------------[Bob5]-->

----------------[Ann5]

Bob goes on to meet Carl, who happens to

be the same age as Bob:

-----------------------------[Bob9]-->

-------------------------

  • [deleted]

OK, looks like I have to resort to words alone in the people case.

Bob passes Ann when they are both 5 years old.

Then Bob goes on to meet Carl when they are both 9.

Carl then catches up with Ann when she is 15 but

he is 13.

Looks like posting here is more difficult than

the theory of special relativity!

Dude! I don't drink anything expensive either--no alcohol as my hero is Kelly Slater who leads a clean lifestyle.

But I want to hear about the "fundamental behavior theory of time!"

You've been seeing the problems, so your solution will be cool!

When do we get to see it? You may wish to copyright it online first at copyright.gov, along with all your other essays. :) Now and then I run into folks who say they came up with MDT. :)

Peter,

Thank you. Good to hear from you again. I just read your 2010 paper in the above link you provided. I will recommend it along with your essay. We focus on different areas of relativity, which is good. After a careful review of both of our works - it will be interesting to see what is left standing. You have admirable focus for taking on the speed of light issue. I purposely do not. As you may have seen in my essay - I give conventional relativists a pass on just about everything: Hafel-Keating, speed of light, all forms of time dilation, adjustments for sagnac, simultaneity, etc.. and I basically say "I've taken everything to have told me to be true about relativity, accepted it and isolated out only the relationship between relative motion and time dilation from SR and if you understand that there is relative motion between the ground and the satellites, then everything Einstein says about time dilation would indicate that the clock system would be impossible to sync yet it does quite nicely."

I look forward to a continuing discussion.

Daniel,

Thanks - however I read the link you provided and do not agree with that analysis. It seems the author is arguing that relativistic effects are insignificant by taking a snapshot in time rather than acknowledging that the error can be quite significant even after a few hours. I recommend you read the Ashby link provided on my reference page.

Take care.

Thanks James.

I'm just looking for a good responsible discussion that can increase our knowledge of these topics.

Dear Nobody, my essay will show that Bob can pass Ann when they are each 5 years old, but that requires Bob to be moving at a speed that makes him Ann's age when he passes by her.

Then, in order to meet Carl when they are both 9, Bob must have been traveling at a speed that will allow him to catch up w/Carl in 4 yrs for Bob, but in more yrs than that for Carl.

Thomas Garcia, "On the Nature of Time."

    • [deleted]

    Hello, Garcia,

    Could not locate your essay, and I do not understand your above. There need not be any history involved (such as your "but that requires Bob to be moving at a speed that makes him Ann's age when he passes by her"); we can start the process with two people of any age passing each other. (It's just for convenience that I made Ann and Bob both 5 years old at the start.)

    For example, if Bob is 25 when he passes Ann when she is 5, and then Bob goes on to meet Carl when Bob is 29 and Carl is 40, we still have Carl catching up with Ann when she is 15 and Carl is 44, which means that Ann gained 10 years whilst Bob/Carl gained only 4 4 = 8 years. And we can also eliminate history by replacing people with clocks and setting them to read whatever times we want as they pass. (For example, we can set the "Carl" clock to match the "Bob" clock as they meet in passing.)

    As for your second sentence above, I am just as confused as I was re your first sentence.

    When Carl's entrance occurs, his history before that meeting with Bob is irrelevant. As I just said, it really does not matter if Carl's & Bob's ages are the same when they meet. All that matters is the end result, and that result is the fact that people in different inertial frames age differently. And special relativity theory has no physical explanation for this experimental result. This is - to be kind - a serious defect of the theory.

    • [deleted]

    Hi, again, Garcia,

    I *was* able to locate your essay - had a not-found false-negative error at first. Here are a couple of comments re the essay:

    In your train example, the different observers do not necessarily have different speeds through space. This is just the standard case of reciprocal time dilation where each observer sees the other's clock as "running slow," so there is no proof here that observers who move at different speeds through space age differently. However, this is proved by the Triplet Example which I gave above (which of course was not original with me).

    You said that the traveling and turning-around twin would be younger than the stay-at-home people "because his ship would have to accelerate." As the Triplet Example shows, acceleration has nothing to do with it.

    Thanks, Nobody, for reading my entry, and for your feedback as well.

    The train experiment shows time "dilation" better than the Twins Paradox, I think. I try to explain why both observers are moving through space at different speeds when they take their measurements. Both are on the earth's surface, so both are moving with the planet as it moves through space at the same speed. Also, both are moving with the spin of the earth at the same speed. However, their speeds are different from each other because one is moving on a train while the other is stationary with respect to the train's motion. Granted, that is a tiny difference in speed, but if it happens to the twins, it must happen to the train observers too, IMO.

    The observers of my essay do not "see" the other's clock. If it is so that if they could do that, their clocks would appear to each other to be moving slower, I do not know why that would be, because I have not read that argument yet. If you have a link, I would appreciate reading it.

    Your "Triplet example" cannot have A & C stationary because all objects are in motion. Thus, for space travelers to be a certain age as one passes by another and then reaches a third object requires dfferent speeds of all of them. SR clearly shows the rate of the passage of time for objects depends on their speed (not velocity). From that, I draw the conclusion that time is a property of matter and passes inversely proportional to any discrete object's speed.

    Thomas Garcia