Essay Abstract

According to reductionism, every complex phenomenon can and should be explained in terms of the simplest possible entities and mechanisms. The parts determine the whole. This approach has been an outstanding success in science, but this essay will point out ways in which it could nevertheless be giving us wrong ideas and holding back progress. For example, it may be impossible to understand key features of the universe such as its pervasive arrow of time and remarkably high degree of isotropy and homogeneity unless we study it holistically -- as a true whole. A satisfactory interpretation of quantum mechanics is also likely to be profoundly holistic, involving the entire universe. The phenomenon of entanglement already hints at such a possibility.

Author Bio

After completing a PhD in theoretical physics, I became an independent researcher to avoid the publish-or-perish syndrome. For 45 years I have worked on the nature of time, motion, and the quantum theory of the universe. I am the author of two books: The Discovery of Dynamics and The End of Time, in which I argue that time is an illusion. Details of my research work are given at my website platonia.com. Since 2008 I have been a Visiting Professor at the University of Oxford.

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Julian

Are you agree with my abstract?

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413

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Whenever I see Dr Julian Barbour or Dr Laurent Nottale's name, I am pleased and excited. I see any of them as the greatest humans in our science history whereas Einstein is nothing but a funny God. Sorry for those believers, I offended your God. It is OK, you God's believers can ask HIS officers to delete my comment.

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Julian Barbour,

Your friend Lee Smolin does not seem to be indoctrinated in the constant-speed-of-light religion:

http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Physics-String-Theory-Science/dp/0618551050

Lee Smolin, The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next, p. 226: "Einstein's special theory of relativity is based on two postulates: One is the relativity of motion, and the second is the constancy and universality of the speed of light. Could the first postulate be true and the other false? If that was not possible, Einstein would not have had to make two postulates. But I don't think many people realized until recently that you could have a consistent theory in which you changed only the second postulate."

http://www.fqxi.org/community/articles/display/148

"Many physicists argue that time is an illusion. Lee Smolin begs to differ. (...) Smolin wishes to hold on to the reality of time. But to do so, he must overcome a major hurdle: General and special relativity seem to imply the opposite. In the classical Newtonian view, physics operated according to the ticking of an invisible universal clock. But Einstein threw out that master clock when, in his theory of special relativity, he argued that no two events are truly simultaneous unless they are causally related. If simultaneity - the notion of "now" - is relative, the universal clock must be a fiction, and time itself a proxy for the movement and change of objects in the universe. Time is literally written out of the equation. Although he has spent much of his career exploring the facets of a "timeless" universe, Smolin has become convinced that this is "deeply wrong," he says."

I have the impression that high-ranking Einsteinians have secretly abandoned Divine Albert's Divine Theory long time ago. Is that true?

Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

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Julian

By definition (ie it is the only way physical reality can occur), the sequence of physical existence only occurs in 'one direction' and once. That is, any occurrence which has the appearance of oscillation or reversal, is a repetition of a previously existent state (ie present). Though in actual fact, it is highly unlikely to be even a repetition; it just appears so to us when viewed at a higher level of differentiation than that which actually occurs.

Similarly by definition, what constitutes the physically existent state of any given present, must be a function of the immediately previous one, because physical influence cannot 'jump' physical circumstance (and neither can a non-existent state have influence). Furthermore, of those possibilities, that which was the cause must have been immediately spatially adjacent to what subsequently occurred, because, again, physical influence cannot 'jump' circumstance.

The explanation as to how and why any given different state occurred, must ultimately be explainable as a function of the lowest level of that which caused it (ie the previous state). In any given circumstance, cause must ultimately be traceable to, and be a function of, the fundamental components of the circumstance involved.

Finally, these rules apply to all physical existence. There cannot be a situation whereby some phenomenon is deemed to have some physical effect, but have no physical existence of its own.

So the crux of the problem is: what, generically, constitutes a physically existent state, ie physical reality-that which exists as at any given point in time, and complies with these rules.

Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with applying a different approach as it might spark an idea. But this must then not lead to hypotheses which contravene the way in which physical reality occurs.

Paul

Dear Julian,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your essay. You write as well as you think. I have a few questions/remarks.

1. To what extent are shape dynamics and best matching dimension-specific? I ask this for three reasons. The first is because I wonder if dimension 4 is "selected for" by having special properties in this regard. The second is because certain theories, such as string theory, involve different numbers of dimensions, and it would be interesting to know how universal these ideas are. The third is because metric recovery from a different type of structure; namely, causal structure, is very different in dimension 4 than in dimension 3, for instance.

2. You mention matter-energy briefly in your endnote number 8, but just to be sure, do you regard matter as "part of" the conformal structure at the most fundamental level, or as something that "lives in" and "interacts with" the conformal structure?

3. In one of your references to The End of Time (which I have not read), you imply that time is an illusion arising from large quantum amplitudes of "time capsules." Do you regard causality also as an illusion, and how (if at all) do you distinguish between the two concepts?

4. I am curious about your general opinion of order theory in fundamental physics. The reason I ask is because the continuum is an order-theoretic concept, and you seem to comfortable with manifolds over the continuum, but seem to abstain from time/causal order as a fundamental concept, at least at the quantum level. Now, personally, I have it the other way around. Coming from a math background, and working mostly with complex manifolds and algebraic schemes, I find it very hard to believe that anything so fantastically uniform is physical at the most fundamental level. On the other hand, the idea of binary relations seems so primitive and basic to all observation that it seems like the most natural place to start. I discuss this, among other things, in my own essay:

On the Foundational Assumptions of Modern Physics

Just to be clear, I agree with you that holism is necessary, but I suspect it arises purely at the quantum level. Also, I think matter-energy and spacetime are ways of talking about aspects of a single structure at the classical level. Finally, the "superspace" in my view has the same type of local structure as its constituent universes, so "quantization" is an iteration of structure in a sense.

Anyway, I am too early in my physics learning curve to be committed to any particular theory, and the ideas you present here require some serious thought on my part. Take care,

Ben Dribus

    I can agree with some of Yuri's abstract, mainly because it only invites us to reconsider.For Pentcho Valev, as I responded to a similar post before, I still believe in the constancy of light. Nothing is certain in physics, but there is nothing as yet to question the constancy. For Paul Reed, I think you make rather conservative assumptions about "the way in which physical reality works". I believe one can have real insightful physics in which your assumptions are replaced by others. FQXI is about considering new ideas.

    Benjamin Dribus asks several good questions. 1) Shape dynamics and best matching will work in any number of dimensions. As of now, I see no compelling reason to change from 3+1. 2) In shape dynamics, matter 'lives in' and 'interacts with' the conformal structure.3) The relatively strong reasons for questioning the existence of time have led me to propose a different kind of causality, or explanation for what is. I guess I must ask you to read The End of Time. 4) You say "the idea of binary relations seems so primitive". However, I have doubts whether the structure one needs for physics can be built up from them. King Lear said to Cordelia "Nothing will come from nothing". I argue "Not much will come from not much". You might be interested in my previous essay "Bit from It" challenging Wheeler's "It from Bit". I will try to read your essay.

    I can read the final post in Russian but it still makes not much sense to me, though I agree time is ultimately an illusion.

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      Thanks Julian for another thought provoking essay! Your writing always makes me reflect. You're right that shape dynamics brings out the holistic nature of general relativity. The same holism is also manifest in the non-local nature of observables in GR and the holographic principle. Maybe this is not a coincidence?

      Dear Dr Barbour,

      Thanks for your thinking in different angles. You opened a new door in my own thinking by introducing SD, it widenes the perceptions that I had untill now. In "THE CONSCIOUSNESS CONNECTION" I also questioned reductionism and favoured "emergence" (i also referred to your work).

      The first question I have is about page 3 : you say "If the universe is spatially infinite, the answer is equivocal" (closed up), this looks like the center of the infinite circle that is everywhere, where it becomes a paradox, because the center is a point a singulairity. How do you see that ?

      The second one : page 5: "three particles pictured as dots on an infinite sheet of grid paper, then two coordinates dtermine the position of each" I wonder what coordinates that may be on an infinite grid, my perception is that the three points may be on any point on this grid and it is not possible to point out coordinates toward the limits of the grid becuase it is infinite, the points can only be coordinated in relation with themselves, but perhaps you meant to say that.

      "Terms of Complete Shapes of the Universe" (page 8), is a statement that paralels my perceptions of the alpha-probability in Total Simultaneity (the harbour of the "immense multitude", only with applying SD, it becomes more causal understandable. Imagine the TS as the singulairity with the infinite radius where there is an infinity of angles.(see also question one).

      "Even the times themselves are in a real sense created by the universe", here you are I think contradicting your former thinking, you are right when one accepts that the universe is a creation of consciousness and so again non existing as a measurable dimension, the objective illusion of time I declare by decoherence between the cutting Subjective Simultaneity Spheres forming a foam of circles with objective simultaneity.

      By the way I liked very much your PLATONIA.

      best regards

      Wilhelmus

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      Julian

      "For Paul Reed, I think you make rather conservative assumptions about "the way in which physical reality works".

      There are two knowns about physical existence: a) it is independent of sensory detection, b) there is alteration. Therefore, it is sequence. And the key feature of sequence is that only one state in any given sequence can occur at a time. Because the predecessor must cease in order that the successor can occur. This also governs what can potentially be a cause, both in terms of the sequence of existence and spatial position. The point about traceability to the smallest denominator is a logical truism.

      So there is nothing conservative about this, it is determined by physical reality, of which we are a part, and an avoidance of metaphysical concepts which have no physical correspondence. However, it is easy to say all this. The real question being: what constitutes a physically existent state as at any given point in time, ie physical reality-that which exists (there may be more than one type). Timing being the method whereby occurrence can be differentiated until one discerns what occurred at a point in time, which, practically, is probably impossible for us to achieve. Certainly at present the tendency is to refer to some physical state as having been existent when in fact it comprises more than one (ie there is alteration within the 'state).

      Paul

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      Leading philosophers and physicists (FQXi members among them) go even further: they reject special relativity, preserve Einstein's 1905 precious light postulate and restore absolute simultaneity (Orwell would call this "triplethink"):

      http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Simultaneity-Routledge-Contemporary-Philosophy/dp/0415701740

      Einstein, Relativity and Absolute Simultaneity (Routledge Studies in Contemporary Philosophy): "Einstein, Relativity and Absolute Simultaneity is an anthology of original essays by an international team of leading philosophers and physicists who have come together to reassess the contemporary paradigm of the relativistic concept of time. A great deal has changed since 1905 when Einstein proposed his Special Theory of Relativity, and this book offers a fresh reassessment of Special Relativity's relativistic concept of time in terms of epistemology, metaphysics, and physics. (...) Unfortunately for Einstein's Special Theory, however, its epistemological and ontological assumptions are now seen to be questionable, unjustified, false, perhaps even illogical."

      Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

      Dear Julian

      Another clear, well written essay. I have always looked at machian principles and SD with great enthusiasm and the essay makes it very accesible. The idea of generating the background (space,time) upon the behaviour of their ''inhabitants'' fascinates me. As I told you before, I plan to study SD deeply and try to find the origin of the best-matching procedure (maybe by using category theory?).

      ''Instead of thinking of particles in space and time, we should perhaps be thinking in terms of complete shapes of the universe''

      We arrive at the importance of shapes by questioning:'' what is time, what is space?'' and giving a meaning to them by observation. More questioning on what is time and what is space could lead to something even bigger that could maybe have SD as a part. This is what I argue in my essay (that I showed you as a draft via email. here´s the final version Absolute or Relative Motion...or Something Else?), and it´s something I´ve been thinking.

      Good luck in the competition!

      Best Regards,

      Daniel Wagner

      Some very brief responses and then a longer one.Daniel: you may well be right that questioning the nature of time and motion may lead to something even bigger. Sean: The nonlocality of observables is surely a direct consequence of holism as it exists in shape dynamics, holography, about which I know less, probably too. Wilhelmus: I cannot quite make out what you are trying to say, so I am unable to respond. However, one can certainly have coordinates as mathematical possibilities on an infinite plane.

      Paul Reed. You wrote:

      "There are two knowns about physical existence: a) it is independent of sensory detection" Quantum mechanics already makes that a questionable statement.

      "b) there is alteration. Therefore, it is sequence. And the key feature of sequence is that only one state in any given sequence can occur at a time. Because the predecessor must cease in order that the successor can occur."

      I accept there is alteration, though I would prefer to call it difference. But that does not necessarily mean you have a linear sequence A, B, C ... You can easily have branching and recombining sequences. This is strongly suggested by the by no means disreputable many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. With regard to you final comment, the natural numbers 1,2,3, ... form a sequence but I think it would be odd to say 12 must cease so that 13 can exist.

        Hello Mr Barbour,

        I found your essays very intresting. We search the answers. The universal spirituality like a torch of extrapolations. The reductionism for me is more complex. The trinity that said is relevant considering the fractal form the mai central sphere. But the complexity after this 1 and 3 is so important. The system is finite and precise, so it implies a specific serie , similar for the quantum scale and the cosmological scale. This number is very relevant. The main codes are inside these main central spheres, with their correlated volumes. This ultim fractal permits also the cretaion of all others forms. Your dynamics of sphapes are relevant when the finite groups are inserted. The newtonian mecanic and the Borhian interpretation are very relevant when the rotations are proprotional with mass. The unification of the SR and GR is explained in this line of reasoning.The duration is implied by the rotations of spheres.The time is so a pure correlated duration. Irreversible in its pure generality. The machian principle is relevant, your extrapolations also. My equations help for the universal rotation around the central sphere. That said the Universal sphere and this central sphere in my line of reasoning does not turn. So the rotation of the Universe of Godel is not logic in its generality.Only the intrinsic spheres turn.So the quantum spheres and the cosmological spheres. See that more a sphere turns, less is its mass.its volume also is correlated. That's why the finite groups are essential for the uniqueness serie. Like for the quantization of the mass. In this logic, the SR and the GR are unified.the light turns in opposite sense than mass.

        They turn so they are Mr Barbour ! the inertie dances with my equations if and only if the serie is finite considering the ultim fractal.

        See that this fractal is universal, so the universal sphere is a foto of our quantum uniqueness. It is important consideringt he Machian principle and the entropical principle in a closed evolutive space time. See that the isotropical and homogene space time(the sphere) is essential.

        The coherences appear easily when the groups are finite for the quantization.

        I ish you good luck, it is abeautiful essay.

        ps the fractal permits to create also all the forms and shapes.because the lattices disappear in the perfect contact....

        Regards

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        JB:

        Somehow, your essay seems related to my model, (in End Notes of To Seek Unknown Shores

        聽聽 http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1409

        I am trying to imagine the distal vertex of a tetrahedron that communicates with the central point of sphere contained within the solid angle of the tetrahedron such that the sphere is always tangent to the tetrahedral face. It is a naive attempt to combine motion AND growth from microscopic to macroscopic dimensions.

        Perhaps you can destroy the idea so that I might really retire.. Thank You.

        Your writing is lucid.

          Hi Julian,

          Thanks for yet another well-written essay. You may be interested to read some of Eddington's Fundamental Theory. There are some similarities to your approach.

          Nevertheless, I have to say I was a bit surprised by some of your assertions regarding reductionism. I think there is a subtle but important distinction that appears to have been muddled in several of the essays that have been critical of reductionism and that is the difference between reductionism as a method for investigating science and reductionism (or "constructionism" as P.W. Andersen called it) as an actual causal "structure" to the universe.

          Certainly holistic approaches are indeed useful and even reductionism itself does not deny that new features will appear at higher levels of complexity. But the holistic approaches still require knowledge of the fact that there *are* parts to begin with and thus must mean that some individual understanding of those parts is a prerequisite to understanding the whole. By dint of the fact that something possesses non-uniformity, which it must if it is to be understood as *having* parts to begin with, requires some recognition of those parts as individual features. Thus it would seem reductionism is *required* to some extent for an understanding of anything other than an utterly featureless structure.

          So, for instance, in your example of the triangle from shape dynamics, the concept of "shape" still requires knowledge of the concept of angles. To a large extent, this is still reductionism. Thus, while the universe itself may not be reductionist in its structure, I fail to see how we can make sense of it outside of a reductionist framework which is much broader than you make it out to be. Honestly, I really don't see how any of the shape dynamics arguments point to any serious flaws in reductionism itself unless one takes a seriously narrow definition of it that is completely inconsistent with the way it has been used over the years.

          Incidentally, many of the "failures" of reductionism that people like to point to (e.g. you mentioned some issues with general relativity) may simply be that these discoveries (like general relativity) are not universally applicable (incidentally, with regard to shape dynamics, I fail to see how it is all that different from a block universe, not to mention the fact that it seems as if the changes still need to be relative to *something* though heaven knows what that is).

          Regarding the history of reductionism, I also don't see how Newton's notion of absolute space "introduced" reductionism. That seems like a bit of "backward causation" from the shape dynamics argument about triangles. The truth of the matter is that reductionism as a method for carrying out the scientific method was developed by a number of people over a span over nearly 200 years.

          Sorry to sound overly harsh. I think there are certainly some interesting ideas to be explored here (including one that I will e-mail you about concerning the relationship between distance and angle), but I think my biggest objection is that it seems that reductionism has been mis-characterized. As one anonymous poster said elsewhere on this site, "In a serious sense anti-reductionism is a straw man. Practically, realistically, there's no other way to do experimental science except analytically."

          Again, sorry to sound so harsh. But where would we be without friendly disagreements, eh? Perhaps we'll get to do one of those mock debates at the next conference with you (and George Ellis and others...) on the pro-reductionist side and me (lonely old me...) on the anti-reductionist side.

          Cheers,

          Ian

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            Julian

            Indeed it is difference. Physical reality occurs differently, ie when one is compared with another then difference is identifiable, and hence we know there is alteration. In the circumstance of physical existence, any given sequence can only be linear because the predecessor must cease to exist. There can only be one physically existent state within the sequence at a time. Any form of recombining, oscillation or whatever is really a re-occurrence of a previous existent state (though I think the complexity is such that this could never occur, it is just that from a higher level of differentiation it appears that way).

            The analogy is a film. It has the appearance of constant movement, but ultimately there is a state of non-movement. This is the importance of timing (your favourite subject!). Because difference involves: 1) substance (ie what it was), 2) order (ie order of occurrence), 3) frequency (ie the rate at which differences occur). Timing is concerned with the latter. In other words. if we had a timing system with a unit of time which was equivalent to the fastest change in existence, then what occured could be differentiated to the level where there is no form of change. Which is what is physically existent, as it cannot involve change as that constitutes more than one existent state. Timing is concerned with the rate at which change occurs, it is not a feature of any given state of physical reality.

            Take an elementary particle spinning. What constitutes physical reality? The particle-no because it is in a variety of physical states. One has to identify one of them. So is it half a spin, a whole spin, etc? No, because that involves more than one physically existent state. The answer involves isolating the smallest degree of spatial alteration possible. Take the life-cycle of a leaf. Ontologically, it is incorrect to refer to the entity as leaf, thereby implying it is the same, but altering. It only appears to be the same at the level of differentiation we are capable of. In fact, it is a different physical reality as every given point in time in the sequence, it just maintains certain superficial physical attributes which we ascribe to leaf, and only one of those occurs at a time.

            Paul

            This will be a relatively long response to Ian Durham's thoughtful critique. First though a comment on Eddington's Fundamental Theory, I did try it many years ago and found it very tough. In the end I concluded he was incapable of saying anything that made sense, though he seemed to be groping towards a Machian standpoint. One of my lecturers at Cambridge referred to the book as "that graveyard of so many promising theoreticians."

            Now to reductionism:

            First, I spent some time looking for what seems to me to be the best definition of reductionism and found something that basically matches the opening of my abstract:

            "According to reductionism, every complex phenomenon can and should be explained in terms of the simplest possible entities and mechanisms. The parts determine the whole." You say:

            "Nevertheless, I have to say I was a bit surprised by some of your assertions regarding reductionism. I think there is a subtle but important distinction that appears to have been muddled in several of the essays that have been critical of reductionism and that is the difference between reductionism as a method for investigating science and reductionism (or "constructionism" as P.W. Andersen called it) as an actual causal "structure" to the universe."

            I'm afraid the latter meaning is too subtle for me too. What is a 'causal "structure" to [sic] the universe? You also say:

            "By dint of the fact that something possesses non-uniformity, which it must if it is to be understood as *having* parts to begin with, requires some recognition of those parts as individual features. Thus it would seem reductionism is *required* to some extent for an understanding of anything other than an utterly featureless structure."

            I completely agree that a prerequisite for science is nonuniformity. That was the whole point of Leibniz's objection to Newton's absolute space. However, I am not sure that this establishes parts as primary. A part of a landscape is of necessity extended and thereby a whole, since you need attributes to identify it. It has long been recognized that a thing is defined by a collection of attributes. Leibniz liked to say that a thing is defined by a true principle of unity, not by mere aggregation like a heap of stones.So I think a thing is a holistic concept; a triangle in Euclidean space certainly is.

            You also say:

            "So, for instance, in your example of the triangle from shape dynamics, the concept of "shape" still requires knowledge of the concept of angles. To a large extent, this is still reductionism. Thus, while the universe itself may not be reductionist in its structure, I fail to see how we can make sense of it outside of a reductionist framework which is much broader than you make it out to be."

            Here you do make a point that I find persuasive (though mathematically one needs the concept of a scalar product to make sense of angles in a vector space, which seems to me holistic). I didn't mean to claim one can utterly banish all part-like concepts (or, at least, I am not yet in a position to do so). The point that I was trying to make is that the universe may be far more holistic than is usually believed. I only claimed that shape dynamics changes our notion of the parts, winnowing away as much reductionist chaff as possible.

            You say:

            "Honestly, I really don't see how any of the shape dynamics arguments point to any serious flaws in reductionism itself unless one takes a seriously narrow definition of it that is completely inconsistent with the way it has been used over the years." I am not a philosopher of science, but have read generally on the topic and checked a few definitions before writing my essay. What you suggest does not match my reading and understanding. At the least, I am sure that there is a huge conceptual difference between the structure of Newtonian dynamics and shape dynamics. I would say it is the difference between a basically reductionist and a basically holistic conception. That was the message I was trying to get across.

            You say:

            "incidentally, with regard to shape dynamics, I fail to see how it is all that different from a block universe" In a (classical) block universe, many different histories coexist and there is no criterion that allows one to choose in a non-arbitrary way a special distinguished one among them. In shape dynamics there is.

            You continue:

            "not to mention the fact that it seems as if the changes still need to be relative to *something* though heaven knows what that is." Shape dynamics is better described as being about differences rather than changes. Its key mechanism, best matching, enables one to quantify the difference between two nearly identical wholes without using any structure extraneous to each of them. That is where it differs radically from Newton's scheme, in which the external structure of absolute space has causal effect.

            You also say

            "Regarding the history of reductionism, I also don't see how Newton's notion of absolute space "introduced" reductionism. That seems like a bit of "backward causation" from the shape dynamics argument about triangles. The truth of the matter is that reductionism as a method for carrying out the scientific method was developed by a number of people over a span over nearly 200 years."

            Of course, methods develop over a long time and qualitative reductionist notions, above all in atomism and in Descartes's mechanical philosophy, predated Newton. However, I would still argue that reductionism got into its stride with Newton. His scheme was above all suitable for my purposes because shape dynamics is, I would still maintain, far more holistic.

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              Julian,

              I am suspecting that the angle you "measure" in ADM correlates somehow to a Lorentz Rotation angle? Recall that a Lorentz boost can be represented as a bonified rotation in the information space of Dirac. Does ADM build the "information space" of Einstein that provides the ultimate in a physical spatial scaling w/ "a measured Lorentz angle value" for each physical object possesing mass and having a rest frame to make measures within? If so, this sounds like the information we receive when we multiply by a complex #. Isn't this the information attained by conformal QED? ADS/CFT stuff with Alpha being the 5D symmetry having the 4D QFT "shapes" occupying a bounding surface?

              Your analogy of the Alpha as the most uniform angle space yearned for by all different angle spaces (well you may not have exactly stated this ... ad lib by me here) may imply that the angle space of the ADS version of a QFT "desires" to become part of the 5 Dimentional informational space but has asymmetrically been broken off and given a series of angle measures that "precisely measure the asymmetric break-up" (maybe encoded in DNA for a "life" shape?)... like a conciousness in birth being the asymmetrical parting from a structure having a complete symmetry (like point symmetry of the electron. Hmmm, this may imply that the quantum field is created by nothing more then a correlation between the asymmetric "yearning - a projection on to Alpha" that drives all other shapes to entropically become more in line with the symmetric Alpha (an S matrix with a mission!) ... thus ... all shapes contain paths (maybe similar to the Feynman decision paths) that lead them them back to occupy the Alpha symmetry once again... ?

              Afterall ... in ADM a living thing would have a shape space ... and like all shapes ...

              My most enjoyable read, Thank you,

              Tony

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                Dear Julian Barbour,

                thank you very much for this essay. It does very clearly set out your ideas and the ideas of other that have been the foundation for them. Like your previous essays, it is accessible to non specialists, very well crafted and relevant to the essay question. I am sure there is still more I can learn from it. It is another fine essay.

                You wrote "Using grand philosophical terms, the gap between epistemology - what can be observed - and ontology - what is assumed to exist - should be as small as possible. Ideally, there should be no gap at all....." That is where our views necessarily diverge. As I regard the observed output of data processing to be distinct from what existed unobserved as the source of the data.

                Thank you once again for giving some time to discuss you work on your blog thread and your replies here. Good luck in the competition.

                  Thanks for your thoughtful reply! I suppose it is rather appropriate that when I wrote my thesis on Fundamental Theory that I included photographs of headstones from the graveyard where Eddington is buried. At any rate, I'm not sure I entirely agree regarding Fundamental Theory, but that's for another discussion over a drink sometime.

                  I still think I disagree about reductionism, though. As big a fan as I am of dictionaries, I find they do not always capture the subtleties in the actual usage of certain words. So nothing in the definition you posted is necessarily wrong, but I think the interpretation of that definition is almost too literal.

                  Consider a car, for example. I don't think anyone would disagree with the suggestion that a car can be easily understood via reductionist methods (in fact, Robert Pirsig demonstrates this, albeit with a motorcycle, as a beautiful demonstration of a reductionist scientific method in his Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance). But are there facets of a car that are meaningless outside of the whole? Absolutely! We could understand how every individual part works *and* how they work together to move the car, but the *purpose* of the car is entirely holistic.

                  Now consider a mechanic. Can a mechanic fix a car if he/she has a wholly holistic understanding of it, i.e. only knows its purpose? No because if the car fails the mechanic must still understand how the individual parts work in order to figure out how to fix the car! Yes, he/she needs to know how each of the parts is connected, but fixing the problem means isolating it.

                  As George pointed out in his essay, in many situations there are holistic issues that often enact a "top-down causation" effect where the "whole" somehow enacts restrictions on the parts. But that's really true of anything. For the car example, an accelerator peddle will go completely to the floor if the cable attaching it to the engine snaps (this actually happened to me). The limitations in the motion of the accelerator pedal are driven by a whole host of issues, many of which are "holistic" or even unrelated to the actual mechanisms of the car itself (e.g. laws may constrain design). Despite all of this, I can't see how a reductionist method could possibly be avoided here nor do I think reductionism itself excludes certain holistic notions such as "purpose" (incidentally, in order to determine the purpose of a car, if one is ignorant of such things, amounts to obtaining more information which is, in itself, a reductionist thing to do - the "whole" doesn't proclaim itself a car).

                  So the argument goes that there are certain phenomena that are simply either too complex or too abstract to be understood in the same way as a car. But this begs the question, how do we *know* these phenomena are too complex or abstract? Are we simply assuming they are since our usual reductionist methods haven't worked (yet)? If so, then we are a priori assuming there's a problem with reductionism. But this is a logically unprovable assumption. As Carl Sagan once said, "[y]our inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true."

                  Or, what happens if we give up when we are just on the verge of understanding but don't realize it? Worse yet, what happens if this anti-reductionist movement takes on a life of its own and drives reductionism into obscurity? Because the argument that certain phenomena are too complex to be understood in this reductionist manner is the exact argument that is used by proponents of intelligent design and creationism. I find that a bit frightening.

                  At any rate, regarding shape dynamics, I agree that there absolutely is a huge conceptual difference between it and Newtonian dynamics. I understand precisely where you are coming from on this. However, I completely disagree with the idea that you can quantify the difference between two nearly identical wholes without appealing to something external to both (this is exactly what Eddington tried to do with Fundamental Theory). I mean, certainly at some point we get into some kind of recursiveness (even language is recursive since it is used to define itself). But with things like shapes, how does one quantify a difference without some reference? At some point one needs to define something which I say is reductionist. You may say this is still holistic, but at this point the argument has become one of semantics because the fact is that we need to define properties (which are inherently *not* holistic) by which we can compare the shapes. (I have more to say on this point, but I'll send you an e-mail about it.)

                  Now, in regard to my point about reductionism as a methodology versus reductionism as a formal structure to the universe, let me explain the latter by comparison to the former. While it might be possible that the universe contains structures whose function or purpose or nature simply cannot be understood by reductionist methods, this is *not* the same thing as saying that those structures' function or purpose or nature actually *is* independent of the behavior of its constituent parts. It may simply mean that there are limits to our *knowledge* of the universe. Part of this comes from the fact that we are *part* of the universe we are attempting to describe and thus naturally we will run into some problem of recursiveness. But taking a more holistic approach won't necessarily rid us of this problem.

                  So, reductionism doesn't obviate the need for holism, but fundamentally reductionism is still at the core of the scientific enterprise and must remain so if it is to remain science and not succumb to a lot of hokus pokus.

                  • [deleted]

                  Julian, Ian,

                  I think it somewhat "reductionist" to say reductionism is a product of the last few hundred years of scientific thought. Knowledge is foundationally a process of extracting information from the whole.

                  There is a conceptual reductionism to math which obscures wholism. When we actually add things together, we get a larger whole, so what we are really adding, when we say one plus one equals two, are the sets, not the contents of the sets. So we have one larger set, not applesauce.

                  This then is a dynamic process, where we do not just have distinct states in sequence, but one state that changes. It's just that our minds see the distinctions, the angles, not the connections, the distances. This is because our minds function as a strobe like process of extracting frames of seemingly static perception from that dynamic. Which we then string together as a sequence of events. Yet the foundational reality is only the process, because duration is the state of the present between the occurrence of events, not a timeline external to the present.

                  Writing on a phone is a study in thought compression.

                  • [deleted]

                  a sphere, interesting.:) revolution spherization !!!

                  John,

                  Well, to some extent, reductionism as we know it, vis-à-vis the scientific method, *is* largely a product of the last few hundred years of scientific thought. And, one of the points I've been trying to make is that nowhere does reductionism imply an anti-holism. Reductionism is merely a method for understanding the whole, but it does not deny that the whole may possess features that are unique.

                  Kudos on writing that on a phone, by the way. Most impressive.

                  • [deleted]

                  Ian

                  So the question is: what constitutes a 'part'? There may well be different types, but, generically, I would suggest it is that which is physically existent as at any given point in time. In simple language, what is 'there' if we could 'stop the tape' (reality being analogous to a film).

                  Your car is no different from any other sequence of physical existence. The issue is that in that circumstance, we are defining physical reality at a level of differentiation significantly above that which occurs. The 'entity' is being defined by virtue of certain superficial physical features, and so long as they pertain, we know it as car. But the physical reality of this is much more complex. So long as the integrity of the physical sequence is maintained, and the explanation relates to that level of differentiation, then there is no problem. Indeed, apart from the fact that we could probably never define car (or any other entity) at the level of physically existent states, because of the sheer complexity involved, doing so will not assist understanding at a higher level in most cases. The 'purpose' of car is a sociological concept anyway. Issues arise when these higher levels of differentiation are deemed, incorrectly, to be physical reality, when actually they are sequences thereof (ie involve more than one physically existent state). Because then physical sequence can become confused (ie out of sequence), causal factors wrongly attributed, etc, etc.

                  For example: "enact a "top-down causation" effect where the "whole" somehow enacts restrictions on the parts. But that's really true of anything". Indeed so, but this is in the sense that what occurs next can only be a function of the previous occurrence. Any given physically existent state can only be the result of the immediate predecessor, both in terms of sequence and spatial location. Physical effects do not 'jump' circumstances. There is a implication in this type of thinking that the future is affected in some way. Ontologically, this is incorrect, as the future is non-existent. What actually happens is that a subsequent physically existent state occurs which is different from what otherwise would have occurred had the previous state been different. In the case of car, considerations are at a 'functional' level, in order to explain 'how it works'. It has not been differentiated to an physically existent level.

                  Paul

                  • [deleted]

                  Ian,

                  I wasn't denying that science has codified conceptual reductionism, just pointing out the irony of imlying only science is reductionistic, ie, reductionism of reductionism. So to be wholistic about reductionism, it might be said that all knowledge is inherently reductionistic, since knowledge requires perspective and perspective is subjective.

                  • [deleted]

                  Hello John, Paul, Mr Durham,

                  well said all that.

                  viva el revolution spherization.

                  • [deleted]

                  In your search for low N clustering parameters you may want to read Ralph Chamberlin's "Mean Field Cluster Model For the Critical Behavior of Ferromangetics." Nature, Volume 408, November 16, 2000. While this cluster model has been derived for ferromagnetics, it applies generally to all "physical ordering in a mean field" and may provide a computational path to Alpha once you define the coupling (probably a second law derived entropy maximization). What's nice is that it leaves size "unrestrictive" which would be desirable in you scaled holistic space.

                  Also, your holistic space must also come with a temperature vs. size if it is truely the universe to which the holistic space depicts. Microwave temperature for todays size, and hotter on average when the universe shrinks.

                  One other thing, you may want to also read David Hestene's Space Time Geometry" approach to build the electron in Dirac space. The basic form of to represent the electron has the spatial pseudoscalar as the power of e (natural log). This pseudoscalar element must be directly related to your shape when the mass is that of an electron - your angles 2+2, would be the measures.

                  Best Regards,

                  Tony

                  • [deleted]

                  Julian,

                  Not sure if you are reading my comments (no reply). I'll therefore make this my last "question" comment. Fermions are believed to form the structure of everything that has a measurable shape. Light (a boson) is the element that provides information regarding the shape (up to the Chandrasekhar limit). This implies that the information supplied by Shape Dynamics has to accomodate these facts (well, assuming they really are physical fact). This may then imply that Shape Dynamics can precisely describe information measured at the Fermi surface of virtually any manifold. Do the methods for obtaining information regarding the Fermi surface resemble Shape Dynamic methods - does this information correlate? One can envision the angle measures between atoms and molecules in solids (and especially atoms on the solid's surface) as being angle parameters in the Shape Dynamic representation. This would also bring forth band information as conduction (global information) and valence (local information). As the two bands part ways (conduction -> valence) global information (molecular levels) becomes local (atomic levels), periodic cellular, and increase in # of identical copies (all the atoms and molecules that makeup the solid). Can Shape dynamics accomodate anything like this? Characterizing band structure with a more simplified model could provide new horizons in the semiconductor business.

                  When a grad student, I went head to head with a person who insisted that the information regarding the 7x7 reconstruction of the Silicon surface was locked up in the measured angles and positions of the surface atoms .... that's it... and my argument was that the information was locked up in the hybridization of the atomic orbitals and forces generated (minimized energy, yadda, yadda). It would seem that from a shape dynamics perspective he may have had a good argument!

                  Regards,

                  Tony

                  Dear Julian:

                  I enjoyed reading your well-written and intuitive essay describing the weaknesses of the reductionist approach in representing the Natural physical reality.

                  My paper -" From Absurd to Elegant Universe" strongly vindicates the following conclusions of your paper especially related to the QM paradoxes and inconsistencies with GR -

                  "....it may be impossible to understand key features of the universe such as its pervasive arrow of time and remarkably high degree of isotropy and homogeneity unless we study it holistically - as a true whole. A satisfactory interpretation of quantum mechanics is also likely to be profoundly holistic, involving the entire universe. The phenomenon of entanglement already hints at such a possibility.."

                  The Reductionism literally means a pursuit of "Reduced" or truncated reality. The well-known Observer's Paradox of QM implies that the collapse of the wave function truncates the reality to the limits of the consciousness (or lack of it) of the observer. When this "Reduced" or truncated or incomplete view of reality is over-extrapolated to predict the universe or quantum behavior, paradoxes (multi-verses, multi-dimensions, black hole singularities, quantum gravity, quantum time, entanglement, dark matter, anti-matter, and dark energy etc.) and inconsistencies result leading to an Absurd universe.

                  My paper demonstrates that following a holistic approach wherein the whole universe is considered as a continuum of mass-energy-space-time, a very simple mathematical model of the missing physics (hidden variable) of the well-known spontaneous decay/birth of particles can be developed that explains the observed quantum as well as classical behaviors. The holistic model also successfully predicts the observed data at all scales from below Planck scale to beyond cosmological scales. The proposed model not only resolves black hole singularities but also the unresolved paradoxes of physics and cosmology. As you rightly said, the holistic model also explains the inner workings of QM and eliminates its paradoxes and inconsistencies with relativity. It also vindicates your conclusion that time is not a fundamental entity and is an illusion since the observed universe and galactic expansion can be predicted without any explicit consideration of a cosmic time.

                  I would greatly appreciate your comments on my paper. You can contact me at avsingh@alum.mit.edu.

                  Best Regards

                  Avtar Singh

                  You deleted all my comments because I did not read Shape Dynamics? The punishment is unproportional to the crime, Julian Barbour.

                  Pentcho Valev

                  • [deleted]

                  You are "in the job of actually salvaging absolute simultaneity away from the clutches of Einstein", Julian Barbour. So Harvey Brown says. You confirm:

                  Aspects of Time, Julian Barbour, Warwick, August 24th 2011: "Was Spacetime Glorious Historical Accident? (...) ABSOLUTE SIMULTANEITY RESTORED!"

                  The problem is that, in textbooks, the relativity of simulteneity is derived from the principle of constancy of the speed of light (Einstein's 1905 light postulate). So if asked:

                  Can absolute simultaneity and the light postulate coexist in Einstein's relativity?

                  any textbook author would give a negative answer. Now my question:

                  Can absolute simultaneity and the light postulate coexist in Shape Dynamics?

                  Please don't delete the question, Julian Barbour. If your answer is "yes", then Shape Dynamics is a miraculous science, even more miraculous than relativity, and I promise to study it very carefully.

                  Pentcho Valev

                  Dear Mr Julian Barbour

                  Our intuition gives that Machian principle is foundation of physics, although it is not yet proved. Similar unproved intuition appears at fundamentality of consciousness and that gravitational force is different that other forces.

                  You wrote that time arrow is a holistic phenomenon. I wrote similarly in one old article: "Important time's arrow is also the cosmological time's arrow. It is very likely that all in our cosmos is connected, so it has the same direction of time's arrow. It is not possible to communicate with someone who travels in opposite time direction. Therefore, time's arrow at the collapse of a wave function can choose arbitrary plus or minus direction, but it is motivated by direction of time's arrow in the cosmos. (By the way, it is very likely that explanations of big-bang need improvement. For instance, why is entropy at big bang very low?! Low entropy does not happen spontaneously.) Hitoshi Kitada [15] wrote that absolute time of universe does not exist and that only time for local observers exists. This is true in principle, but time also exists as connection between local observers, local observers are connected and this gives one direction of time's arrow of cosmos."

                  I claim also that space-time is an emergent phenomenon caused by matter. Otherwise, interpretation of general relativity also claims, whether all matter is removed from universe, nothing remains - neither empty space. This is a holistic consequence of general relativity similarly as Machian principle is.

                  This is written in my essay: "SR gives also that space-time is emergent so time exists only in matter [8], although, formally, every point in space in SR has attributed time. This is rarely mentioned, but it is very important. Namely, if all matter had been removed from our universe, there would not remain anything, not even space-time. Otherwise, this is given also by GR by its "diffeomorphism invariance" and by the "background free space-time" [9, p. 138]. Similar conclusions are given also by Markopoulou, namely that space-time arises as a consequence of relations between the elementary particles (or other elements of matter) [10]."

                  Maybe you should mentioned in introduction that quantum field theory is also holistic principle where field is more important than single particles.

                  My speculation: Maybe all universe has also properties of a particle. Otherwise, I am sure that black holes are elementary particles, maybe also universe is one particle, that means that it shows some properties of elementary particles.

                  Because of clarity it should be mentioned that Machian principle is also generalization of relativization: relations between objects are more important than location in one inertial system or in one coordinate system - similarly is at relativity principle.

                  Maybe You should explicitly mentioned that because angular momentum of universe is zero and because universe is finite, the Newton's bucket is so explained as not contradictory with Machian principle.

                  You replace time with time of universe. This is a cunning and something grounded idea, maybe it will show as good.

                  You mentioned that only six components of metric tensor is physically important, this means one volume and five angles. I do not understand what means which component? Can you explain this on three and two dimensional metric tensor and on a four dimensional example of Schwarzschild Black hole. Here non-diagonal components are zero, thus angles are only 90°? Do You think also about angles between coordinate axes?

                  You write also about dimensionless quantities. Do you see any advantage of using Planck's distance.

                  I suspect in my essay, that interior of black holes does not exist, similarly as tahions do not exist. Is this in any accordance with Your theory? Do You propose and novelty about Big Bang?

                  Otherwise You write very clearly.

                  Dear Julian

                  Original, thoughtful and well explained. But is reductionism a 'mutually exclusive' methodology? Should the real solution to the workings of the universe not be valid on a macro as well as micro scale, deriving observed reality from a consistent mechanism applicable to both ends of the 'known' scales, quanta to universe? (both ends of course yet unconstrained).

                  I now better understand your shape dynamics, but wonder where evolution from relative motion lies within it, as it seems not at the centre. Am I wrong? I found myself desperately hoping for a 'success' to hang this new set of beliefs on, but despite incisive analysis nothing materialised. May I offer an ADM based option.

                  You'd need to read my essay, but what this does is derive the effects we term SR from a quantum mechanism, and the mechanism from the morphology and evolution of universes. It may be seen as defining and creating the boundaries of closed three-geometries, each a mutually exclusive but nested inertial frame, defined by relative kinetic states. These have real evolving shapes, but size is immaterial. From the foundational structure of truth function logic an ontologial construct is described in the essay entirely from epistemological elements. A pre big-bang (not really a 'bang') state emerges as logically as local CSL.

                  I quite understand how improbable this seems, it is none the less the case. As Feynman said it does at first look wrong, so fails the test of 'beliefs' most use, but it has passed all falsification. I hope you may give it a stern test, and look forward to your critique. http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1330

                  Interestingly, the physical reality of the boundary mechanism is shown and correctly interpreted in the experimental findings in Rich Kingsley Nixey's essay Fig.2.; http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1448

                  Yours is a more clearly written essay than my own, with perhaps too dense an Architecture of the components, though I do add a little superficial theatre for fun.

                  Best wishes and good luck in the competition.

                  Peter

                  • [deleted]

                  Dear Dr. Barbour,

                  I just read your essay. The idea of shape dynamics appears to be a form of Regge calculus. I watched a video presentation of yours on the FQXi blog. The time evaluated from the Jacobi variational principle

                  δt = sqrt{m_iδx_iδx_i/(E-V)}

                  is related to a proper time, or an interval. This got me thinking about how you could describe this in a completely non-time manner.

                  It dawn on me how one could think about this according to light rays. In this way there is no matter of time involved with the "motion" of a shape, for null rays have no proper time. I illustrate this with two diagrams I attach to this post. The first is a flat spacetime description. This is also pictured in 2-space plus 1-time spacetime in 3 dimensions. Two points on a spatial surface emit light pulses. These converge on three points on a subsequent spatial surface. These then define a triangle on that spatial surface. The two points then emit subsequent light pulses and map the triangle onto a third spatial surface. In Minkowsk spacetime this continues indefinitely.

                  In the curved spacetime situation null rays are curved. Since the metric

                  ds^2 = g_{00}c^2dt^2 - g_{ij}dx^idx^j

                  is such that for ds = 0 we can have

                  U^iU^j = (g_{00}/g_{ij})c^2dt^2

                  And the optical path change due to curvature has a c^2 term. Hence we can assume the triangles on the spatial surface are flat. The deformation of null rays will then map the first triangle on the second diagram I attach into the second. The picture here is then completely described by null rays which have no proper time.

                  The time computed by the Jacobi variation is then an "emergent" or computed quantity. This is a parameter which emerges from the "motion" of the triangle, or the map from the first to the second.

                  On another vein I am not convinced that time is a complete illusion. Maybe I will go into this later, but I think that in quantum spacetime it may be that if you only have space then time is not defined. Conversely, if time is defined you have no space. I suspect the two are complements.

                  Cheers LCAttachment #1: light_rays_and_triangles.JPGAttachment #2: null_rays_and_triangles_in_curved_spacetime.JPG

                    • [deleted]

                    This post above is mine; I forgot to include my name. My essay is on a different path.

                    Cheers LC

                    • [deleted]

                    Lawrence Crowell wrote: "On another vein I am not convinced that time is a complete illusion. Maybe I will go into this later, but I think that in quantum spacetime it may be that if you only have space then time is not defined. Conversely, if time is defined you have no space. I suspect the two are complements."

                    How can one qualify this without facing deletion? "Not even wrong" seems to be a suitable euphemism. Brendan Foster? Is "not even wrong" too rude? Are you going to delete this comment?

                    Pentcho Valev

                    • [deleted]

                    here is what I wrote and got deleted without the link. do you think it is prime for deletion.

                    "The standard physics has failed to really tell us what reality is, your theory as non-standard is the most interesting one in my opinion. My theory QSA confirms your hypothesis as to the nature of time and is close to other aspects of your theory. It is also the most direct description of reality and it is a natural outcome of the mathematical universe hypothesis. My theory just like yours says that each point carries the information about the rest of the points in the universe; as a matter of fact that is how interaction is described (or brought about). My theory ties space (time indirectly), energy, matter, forces in one concept based on the line. The theory spits out the mass of the electron from purely random numbers, the first theory to naturally predict the mass of the electron. Moreover, the non-local behavior also naturally appears as an automatic consequence of invariance. Many other results are obtained including the amazing formulas."

                    Hi Julian,

                    I am always impressed with your commitment to relativity in its purest form.

                    I fail to understand, however, that you admit this barrier:

                    "I have given what I believe is the correct definition of Mach's principle [5] and argued that if the universe is closed up in three dimensions like the earth's surface in two then GR does implement Mach's principle [5]. If the universe is spatially infinite, the answer is equivocal. It is Machian however far you can imagine, but infinity is unreachable, and one can never establish a complete sense in which the whole determines the part."

                    Surely there are solutions to GR in an open universe that do not contradict Mach's principle. The conventional "finite and unbounded" interpretation of GR as finite in time (bounded at the singularity of creation) and unbounded in space, closed up like a 3-ball as you say -- suffers no loss of generality when transposed to a model finite in space and unbounded in time. This latter interpretation requires topology to implement global boundary conditions, and it agrees with your angle-preserving evolution of shapes without regard to the length-preservation inherent in ordinary geometry.

                    As always, thanks for a masterful presentation, and best wishes in the contest. (I hope you get a chance to visit my own essay site, "The Perfect First Question.")

                    Best,

                    Tom

                      • [deleted]

                      don't try with the probelm of language and the name sphere and the name ball, for me a sphere is a ball ok dude ! You cannot arrive at your aim without bad strategies poor thinker.

                      Insert my spheres balls in yopur parallelizations of frustrated in team.I eat your sciences at my breakfast band of comics.And you know it all furthermore and you insit like poor obliged strategist of nothing for nothing.

                      put the ball in your sphere dude and buy people to kill me band of comics and don't say that it is FQXi, no it is you and your team,.FQXi it is a wonderful platform, unfortunally poor corrupted act with the soa .It is not a probelm you know.all is said in fact between us. your hate eats you in fact.You are not able to make other things in your life, because your hormons are probably weak.so you make a revenge. the ball and the sphere now, put it where I think and you brendan , delete boy of the team paid in the future .I have pity band of comics.

                      I will go at New York so kill me , it is better band of comics , your name are already in a letter copied for the attorneys and my friends all around this planet and even if you have utilized false name like a false friend, don't forget my quick analyze and the conclusion easy to see. and You Mr Barbour, you accept this comportment also, no not you?

                      You think what Tom that you can steal a thing impossible to steal.try like you make, you shall see on the entropical arrow of times, we shall discuss when we shall be in the aether poor thinker limited furthermore. I see only a publicity and always a kind of comportment of generalist, but no tam, you are not a generalist.patrick Murphy said to shane steiçnman that bruce watkins improve, let me laugh band of comics.and kill me, and still you shall loose in the aether ahahahh sleep well .I will be there all the nights in your dreams, just to show you what are the contemplations of the universe.pray so or buy a bibble and the talmud and the texts of siddartha Gottam, because be sure dude.You shall understand.

                      Regards and put the balls in your sphere comics vanitious full of hate, your hate increases still, logic in front of the truth for the pseudos.

                      and also dude decreasing the veloccity of your country,you know what, you can even try with the faith, and even with all the discriminations, that will not change the spherization of all high spheres. you can trying with all what you want, but you know the better I am repeating is really to kill me. It is more easy if you begin to have doubts you know dude. Am I a danger for USA no !!! I love USA.Am I a danger for the bad systems, yes because I dislike the bad.

                      Regards