John,

time is both an effect as you and J.C. N. smith, I and others say -but it is also an integral and necessary part of an Observed Image universe, because of the non infinite speed of em data transmission.

Electromagnetic variation information, potential sensory data, may lead to production a space-time image. Even though the output image only exists at one time, not several, THE CONTENT of the image does show a spread of time. There is an important difference between an image (think of a photograph) as something and the content of the image. For analogy, a bit like the difference between a book and the contents of the book. The material book exists at only one time not across several times but the tale within might be spread over a lifetime or generations, or even aeons of time.

Constantinos

My point about the 'blank sheet of paper' was to invite others to think about it. After all, I have been providing the answer in postings for some time. Anyway, a short version is below. This of course runs the risk of not 'covering off all the angles', it takes about 15/20 pages to do that. The crux of the argument being that it is very easy to presume a flawed constitution for physical existence, and then develop a theory based on it.

In short:

The start point is that there is existence of some form or other. But by definition, being aware of it, means that we can only know of, what must be presumed to be, a particular form of existence. Which could be characterised as having 'detectability', or the proven potential thereof based on previously verified detection and knowledge of the physical process enabling that. This is because we cannot transcend the physical process underpinning awareness.

So whether there 'are' alternative forms of existence to this, or whether this is 'really' existence, is irrelevant, because we cannot be aware of them. This is what we must analyse. The entire circumstance for us comprises awareness caused by a form of physical existence, which after processing results in either knowledge or not-knowledge. Knowledge being the equivalent of the form of existence available to us, as at that time, not-knowedge being belief.

Awareness involves sensing physical existence, ie receiving physical input (which includes both what is received and what can be hypothesised as potentially receivable). Receiving being in the line of travel and interacting with. For this to occur, there must be something which is independently existent of the detection systems, since it involves receipt, and because otherwise those detection systems would never have evolved. The subsequent processing of what is received is irrelevant to the physics. The fact that a sentient organism, as opposed to an inanimate entity, can utilise what is received can have no effect on physical existence.

The ontological/epistemological conundrum being that as we cannot transcend the form of existence available to us, any comparison with what 'actually' happened is not possible. Whilst the physical processes which result in what we receive are not physically perfect, and/or we are able to 'enhance' awareness of the resultant physical output of those processes during subsequent processing. So, in establishing knowledge, and differentiating it from belief, these issues must be overcome.

Furthermore, while what is received is, of itself, physically existent (ie light, noise, etc), it is only a representation of what physically occurred. Because it is the result of an interaction with that, and enables awareness of it due to the evolution of sensory systems. A feature of these phenomena being that the physically existent state of the representation (ie what is detectable) does not alter (or nearly so) whilst in existence.

The differentiation between the physical phenomena received, and those which caused them, is critical, as:

-what is received is only a representation of what physically existed

-the phenomena involved in capturing and transmitting this representation have physical properties of their own which influence the extent to which they can effect this acquired functional role, ie representing reality perfectly

-there is always a time delay between physical occurrence, and the receipt of any representation.

Our physical existence comprises those existent phenomena which are sensorially detectable by any organism (or proven they could have been so), and the phenomena then proven to have caused them. Proof of existence being based on verified experienceability, either directly or indirectly effected.

Given the input received, we can identify that the form of physical existence we can know has two fundamental characteristics:

-what occurs, does so independently of the processes which detect it

-it involves change/alteration, ie comparison of inputs received reveals difference

This means that the physical existence we can know is existential sequence. The entirety of whatever comprises it can only exist within that sequence in one definitive physically existent state at a time, as the predecessor must cease to exist so that the successor can exist. In sum: to be physically existent, by definition, entails no form of change or indefiniteness in whatever is existent at any given time, change being a feature of the difference between physically existent states. And therefore, physical existence is a spatial phenomenon, which alters over time.

Paul

Anonymousse

The standard view of SR is incorrect. Einstein clearly defines it as a hypothetical circumstance where the is no gravitational force, so there is only uniform rectilinear and non-rotary motion, light that travels in straight lines at a constant speed, and fixed shape bodies. That is, SR is not what was written in 1905.

However, that is irrelevant anyway, because the supposed dichotomy between light and a constant is a red herring. Einstein has no light, there is no observational light in his theory for 'observers' to observe with. He uses a constant against which to measure duration and distance, and calls this light, but it is not light, just a conceptual constant. His fundamental fault was in failing to differentiate physical existence from the light based representation thereof which we receive. That is where the timing difference is. His concept of the relativity of physical existence is incorrect.

As I said before, there are no problems with the flow of time, assuming that one understands properly what is actually happening. Physical existence is an existential sequence. At any given time, it exists in one definitive physically existent state. There is alteration from one physically existent state to the next, that occurs at a rate, which is what timing measures. Motion, ie alteration in spatial position, being only one example of change.

Paul

Peter

You made the differentiation between point particles and waves, not me.

"But now let's stop assuming things and look more carefully at what 'speed' and 'motion' are. They are relative concepts..."

This is where your theory is flawed. It has nothing to do with 'rest states'. Observation, or any form of sensing, can have no effect on physical existence. The issue is about physically existential state. And we cannot know this, because we cannot externalise ourselves from it. But the corollary of this is that we are in a closed system. Therefore, whilst we can never 'actually' know what is moving and how fast, etc, etc, we can know within the closed syatem. And in order to do that, one can select any entity and deem it the reference, then compare any other entity with it, and identify the difference. Within the closed system, it is these differences that are real. Such calibration necessitates the use of the same reference for all the results to be comparable. That analysis is certainly not achieved via whatever happens to be the 'local background frame', because you are not maintaining consistency of reference.

Paul

Time is not an effect, the physical feature which timing is measuring is the rate at which alteration occurs in any given physically existent state.

Space-time is incorrect, as too is Einstein's concept of relativity. Physical existence can only be in one definitive physically existent state at any given time. There is then alteration (which occurs in many forms)and hence a different physically existent state supercedes. Physical existence is just a spatial phenomenon which alters over time. the timing differential which Einstein thought was a characteristic of physical existence is actually the difference in timing between time of existence and time of reeipt of representation thereof (eg light).

Paul

Paul,

The concept of Space-time and Einstein's relativity greatly advanced the comprehension of observed reality. Those two concepts are not WRONG they have just been misunderstood for a very long time. Despite their many discussions Einstein and Kurt Godel did not manage to overcome the persistent problem of the nature of time and Einstein knew that his work was incomplete. However they had, all that time ago, identified time as a very important problem.

John,

You wrote, "You are right. There is no physics field that looks at reality in general terms."

No kidding. Just what do you think I've been preaching all these years -- not just about how physics works, but how science itself functions?

One can always find a way to keep asking the same question, over and over, and it leads nowhere.

Andreas Albrecht explains in precise terms that the question hinders progress toward a unifying theory, and the silence is deafening. The message couldn't be clearer:

There ain't no reality in science.

Tom

John,

To try and ensure that my point wasn't lost, I'll answer your question with another:

"If you have a theory where time is axiomatic, versus one where it is emergent, which would be simpler?

Not whether which is right, just which is simpler."

Where's the physics in your proposition?

Tom

No matter how many times some cites an idea does not make it correct. As a theoretical physicist you are suppose to make some undiscovered predications. Einstein's space-time concept made a lot of undiscovered predictions. Expanding on Guth's work is a strange way to being because that theory was developed explain something that should have been predicted.

Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Dark Flow, The accelerating Universe. All these fundamental measurements were not predicted but fused into old theories. It is like taking a mathematical conclusion and just attaching it to the end of any mathematical proof. How does any of these logics actually lead to those conclusions.

    Georgina,

    Good to hear from you again!

    It is a sea of non-linear information carrying energy, that we have to filter through the linear process of our mind. sometimes it does present convenient narrative arcs of expansion and consolidation and sometimes our minds stitch one together, but the essential reality is it doesn't stop. The enregy is always going somewhere and doing something.

    Tom,

    That does go to the point about generalization and specialization and how easy it is to focus on the details and let the big picture work itself out.

    A simpler explanation would satisfy Ockham's razor. Being able to explain reality in terms of the fewest possible axioms would seem to be the direction of progress for physics.

    "The principle of inertia, in particular, seems to compel us to ascribe physically objective properties to the space-time continuum. Just as it was necessary from the Newtonian standpoint to make both the statements, tempus est absolutum, spatium est absolutum, so from the standpoint of the special theory of relativity we must say, continuum spatii et temporis est absolutum. In this latter statement absolutum means not only 'physically real,' but also 'independent in its physical properties, having a physical effect, but not itself influenced by physical conditions.'"

    So if inertia could be ascribed to space alone, with time as an effect of the mass and energy, it would present a more efficient model of reality.

    "There ain't no time in inertia!"

    Anonymous,

    "How does any of these logics actually lead to those conclusions."

    Consider the origin of quantum theory, said to be the most successfully verified theory in science, ever. All its sophisticated machinery, both mathematical and experimental, from 1803 until today, is dedicated to explaining Thomas Young's simple two-slit experiment.

    Explain, it does. But not in a mathematically complete way. It takes the phenomenon for what it is, and retrodicts a cause. Unfortunately, the explanation drags along a lot of philosophical baggage -- nonlocality, the meaning of free will, superposed positions, probabilistic wave functions, the nature of time.

    As you say, Einstein's relativity -- the special and the general theory -- comes mathematically complete. Ideas become thought experiments and thought experiments become physical experiments in a straightforward mathematical model.

    I wish more people could see that Albrecht's framework contains the same potential for mathematical completeness, in that the unifying idea might in principle be tested against known physical results and extended -- in the same manner that Einstein extended Newton's theory of gravity.

    We ought to be looking for falsification rather than verification. It's becoming more obvious that standard quantum theory offers no falsifying criteria.

    Tom

    Anonymous

    You can compare rates of change without referring to the measuring concept of time, ie by direct comparison-x occurred whilst y occurred. Indeed, if one considers a quartz based timing device, for example, what is actually being compared is a sequence of crystal oscillations with other change sequences. Which reveals what is physically being measured, ie the rate of change in physical reality, and what the reference for timing is, ie a conceptual rate of change to which all timing devices are, within the realms of practicality, synchronised.

    Who has solved what in terms of synchronisation, certainly not Enstein, which was the point I made. Einstein 1905 Para 6 (part 1):

    "If at the point A of space there is a clock, an observer at A can determine the time values of events in the immediate proximity of A by finding the positions of the hands which are simultaneous with these events. If there is at the point B of space another clock in all respects resembling the one at A, it is possible for an observer at B to determine the time values of events in the immediate neighbourhood of B. But it is not possible without further assumption to compare, in respect of time, an event at A with an event at B. We have so far defined only an "A time" and a"B time." We have not defined a common "time" for A and B..."

    Incorrect. Either timing devices are synchronised or the system is useless. Time of observation does not determine time of existence, not that there is any observational light in Einstein anyway, designating an entity an observer does not make it so. The various events either existed at the same time or they did not.

    Another mistake he makes is over the conceptualisation of distance. This is an artefact of physically existent entities which exist at the same time, ie a spatial difference between them. In other words, x=vt has to be applied with caution, because the concept is that a specific spatial quantity can be expressed in terms of the duration it would have taken for something to travel it , had it been able to do so, which it cannot. Furthermore, Einstein involves subsequent timings to establish distance. This is obviously incorrect, because a distance is a function of the existent circumstance at a specific time, at another time that circumstance may well have altered. Einstein 1905 Para 6 (part 2):

    "...for the latter cannot be defined at all unless we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A. Let a ray of light start at the "A time" t(a) from A towards B, let it at the "B time" t(b) be reflected at B in the direction of A, and arrive again at A at the "A time" t'(a)."

    Referring back to the point above, note here the use of the word light, but it is not light, because nothing is observed, it is just a constant.

    Paul

    To,

    "This dialogue is over, unless you answer my simple question"

    LOL. In other words, you are not about to answer my simple question.

    Presumably Ockham's razor is not part of your understanding of physics, especially if it conflicts with long held beliefs.

    There is Einstein's observation that 'A solution should be as simple as possible, but not any simpler.'

    Then there is the Tom amendment; 'Nor should it conflict with the canon.'

    John,

    You have to have physical content to have a physical idea. You don't. This has nothing to do with "the canon," or with "Ockham's razor" or with "Tom's understanding of physics."

    It has to do with measurement units and their application to physical phenomena. If you can't explain your idea in those terms, none of those other things mean anything at all. You can claim to "make an argument" all day long -- it doesn't amount to physical science.

    Tom