• [deleted]

Edwin,

Keep in mind that relativity treats time and space as measures of duration and distance. Clock and ruler. Nothing more and nothing less. So the math derived is quite accurate. It's the assumptions of what these measure are, that is the issue. A ruler is one static device, but a clock is a measure of a system in action, so treating time as fundamentally static is flawed.

With space, whether it is distance, area, or volume, you are measuring space, but with time, you are measuring action.

  • [deleted]

Edwin

Now Constantinos is going to love this, because whilst I have been pointing out that maths is not inherently valid, I would not agree with your statement that maths is 'not real', assuming I understood it correctly.

The validity/reality of maths, as with any representational device, is dependent upon its correlation with what is being depicted (ie physical existence). But we can only depict it. In other words, we cannot externalise ourselves from our existence and check if any given depiction is correct. We are actually comparing one depiction with another when testing validity. So, assuming it is correctly derived, then that representation must be deemed to be 'it', as there is nothing else. Obviously, the maths per se (ie the numbers) is not physical existence, but I rather presumed the people you refer to have not made that simple a mistake!

The test of validity remains intrinsic, but this is acceptable as proof within the closed system of our existence. And in our case the reference revolves around experienceability/ detectability. The problem here being that several areas of physics are investigating aspects of physical existence which are not directly experienceable, hence the use of the maths depiction in the first place. The danger being that whilst internally valid, according to the rules of maths, the model constructed does not depict physical existence, and therefore should not be deemed to be it. Because the start presumptions did not correspond with the form that physical existence must have.

Paul

John,

Now I remember another reason I've refrained from entering into some of the perennial discussions. They're very time consuming. And they don't appear to go anywhere. I commented yesterday and today because Steven Kauffmann brought some new ideas to the table which I find very interesting. They concern issues about quantum field theory that I think are of real significance, and I wanted to bring others attention to his papers. What I don't want to do is dispute ideas of time and space and action, about which a trillion words can be said and still nothing resolved, as some of these threads prove. And those who think math is 'real' will go on thinking that. I can't conceive of eternal time and infinite space. You say you can. It will never get beyond that. I find many of your bio-socio-political ideas are simpatico with mine, and you sometimes come out with a real jewel of an expression. So I peruse your comments when I have time. But we're not going to come to any significant agreement on our theories of the universe and I don't enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing as some appear to. So I'm going to beg off here and try to get back to work on something I can make progress on. Thanks for interacting, and don't take this personally. I'm just short of time.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

  • [deleted]

John,

yes I agree the relations don't appear exactly fixed but there is some variation. What I think is important is that things do not exist in isolation but in relation to everything else in the local internal and external environment, which gives the forces that act to give the structure or arrangement. Whether a pattern exists because of the mathematics or the mathematics exists because of the pattern is not important, it seems to me, they go hand in hand. I don't really see now how a pattern can be real without also being a natural,applied, mathematical expression of the relations pertaining to that arrangement. It can be described with words or it can be described with some kind of mathematical language or abstract representation. That description is separate from the thing described though -theoretical not part of the material reality.

  • [deleted]

Edwin,

No problem. I Try to limit how much I bang my head on the wall as well, but don't have the option of pursuing it professionally.

I can't say I can conceive infinity either, as we are all bound by horizon lines. Definition is limitation and limitation is definition. As I've argued, perception is inherently subjective. So it's not so much seeing infinitely, as explaining how there are absolute bounds to space and action.

Georgina,

I don't want to appear to be taking one side of the coin of energy vs. patterns, as I do see them as two sides of the relationship. Energy manifests patterns and patterns define energy. It just seems to me that physics does tend to get wrapped up in the patterns and loses sight of the energy. Mass and structure are patterns manifesting, so they very much are physically real, but then when ideas like blocktime and multiworlds are considered, it ignores the reality of the energy. It can't manifest successive or multiplying states. Not only due to conservation of energy, but also because change is an essential characteristic of energy. As well as that the essential fact of choosing one direction over another is a primary feature of patterns in the first place. Energy manifesting multiple states just cancels out, like white noise.

  • [deleted]

Hiii Georgina,

Do you know of any other quantum anomalies and/or cosmological conundrums that CIG Theory may explain and that I could work on (no math pleasez)?

www.CIGTheory.com

Something I could think about while at work. Or while falling asleep at night.

THX

doug

  • [deleted]

Edwin,

Keep in mind this goes to the heart of my observation that by trying to eliminate infinities from the universe, they have ended up with an infinity of universes.

  • [deleted]

Rob,

We're not that far apart.

I agree that intelligent life *programs* run on every substrate. Because of this demonstrable fact, though, one has to make the reasonable assumption that the potential for consciousness inheres in every particle, because programs are not conscious.

I'll look up your book and read it if I can.

You wrote, "In my FQXI essay, I agree that all such interpretations (MWI et al) are equally valid. But I also stressed the point, that none of them *explain* anything. They are not part of *THE THEORY*, they were created external to the theory, per se, and slapped onto it, after the fact, like a post-it note."

This is certainly not true of the many worlds hypothesis, as it is based on a non-collapsing wave function. That *is* the theory. The mechanics of the theory support a continuous wave function by probability theory which admits the equally likely hypothesis.

It isn't surprising to me that you and Edwin are in accord philosophically -- because Edwin and I are also close, in our support of continuous function physics, i.e., field theory. Where we part company is in the number of dimensions required to sustain continuous functions -- I find that there are not enough degrees of freedom in 4-dimensional spacetime. This accords with string theory, the multiverse and of course, Joy Christian's framewrok.

You write:

"Regarding:

'In standard quantum theory supported by Bell's theorem...'

I think we both agree that Bell's *purported* theorem is not valid, although we have quite different reasons for our mutual conclusion. Invalid theorems support nothing."

It isn't the mathematics of Bell's theorem that I have a problem with. One gets into a semantic trap to speak of invalid theorems, since a theorem is true by definition. There are plenty of theorems (the Pythagoras theorem, e.g.) that are proven in contexts that have nothing to do with physics.

"Regarding:

'equaly likely' hypothesis at the center of probability theory ...'

"To me, probability theory is a branch of mathematics. Physical observations and theories can explain nothing about mathematics. Mathematics however, can be used to describe low-information-content phenomenon, like physics; In that sense (and no other) it can explain something."

I don't know any mathematician who will admit to mathematics having any information content *at all* -- any more than the English alphabet of itself conveys useful information. To the extent that mathematical structures describe physical information, they are no different from the sentence "See Spot run" that describes kinetic energy.

"Now if you want to consider the proposition that 'The new and critical thing that Albrecht introduces' explains why the mathematics of probability theory has been found to be a useful tool for developing physical theories, that might be of some interest."

He doesn't explain it -- he only says that his models suggest that ambiguous time leads to multiple cosmological initial conditions. I am the one who says that probability theory supports that hypothesis in the context of the many worlds hypothesis.

"But The Equally Likelihood hypothesis, has more to do with physicists, than physics. It is primarily concerned not with 'what is?', but with what do we 'intelligent life forms' known about what is."

I don't have a problem with that. Objective knowledge is itself concerned with what we know, not with "what is."

"In other words, it has less to do with what happened at the dawn of creation (or anything else outside ourselves), than with what is presently going on within our minds."

Is there a difference? Choose a point where creation began -- in the 4-dimensional Riemannian geometry of continuous spacetime, you will find that that point lies everywhere. Outside your mind, and within it.

Tom

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Tom

"Objective knowledge is itself concerned with what we know, not with "what is."

Obviously we can never know what 'really' is, because there is always the possibility of an alternative. But objective knowledge is what is, as far as we can know, and what is potentially available for us to know is definitive and exists in a specific form.. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with consciousness/mind. Somewhat obviously. Because the brain/sensory system processes a physical input received. Something physically existed previously and independently. All the processing does is enable sentient organisms to be aware of that receipt. A brick also receives that physical input, but cannot process it. And incidentally, what is physically received is not the existential sequence anyway, but a physically existent representation of it caused by a physical interaction with it at the time of its occurrence. One type of such a physical phenomenon being light.

Paul

  • [deleted]

Mathematicians understand conjecture as a necessary but unwanted part of the field for it is proof that they seek. Physicist seem to want conjecture rather than proof via experiment because it is an untestable conjecture or question the generates funding.

  • [deleted]

Physicists do not yet know how many independent physical constants there are.

Version 1.

G and c not depend from each other and not vary.This is silent agreement of modern physics.

Version 2.

G and c depend from each other and vary.

Version 3.

G and c not depend from each other but depend from third value of expanded medium of the Universe,from time.They vary synchronously.

Acceleration of the expansion of Universe is direct proof variation of constants.

Version 1 and version 3 chance 50/50 but supported only 1

  • [deleted]

Yuri.

I select door #2:

Version 2. G and c depend from each other and vary.

and we are talking G = gravitational constant and c = speed of light constant , (I hope)

G & "c" are not constants (nor is the cosmological constant constant)

Gravitational fields vary (the degree to which they vary determines the particle they become): F = G m1 m2 / r2

r2 F = G m1 m2

r2 F / m1 m2 = G

At "c" mass disappears and becomes its spatial equivalent.

Nearing "c", m1 m2 get smaller and smaller.

This appears to make G very big.

Where, "c" varies, m varies as well. This affects G (I don't know to much about G)

Door #2

Try to understand (www.CIGTheory.com) & maybe some of my other posts make sense too

space and time (variations of %"c") become the matter. MTS

was this the "G" & "c" you were talking about???

Here's what you could have had behind door #3......

THX

doug

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There is a fine experimental line between physics and philosophy. You are on either one side or the other but never both. When was the last prediction a physicist made and was confirmed? Everybody has a theory of an after the fact observation.

  • [deleted]

CIG Theory is experimentally verifiable, mostly through analysis of Red Shift data and observations. Its predictions should also move forward into realms not yet assessed by the author.

The faster the particle, the smaller it should be. This is a prediction of CIG.

Within the Standard Model there are now many many particles. Do we know their speeds? And sizes? If we know one we should know the other (use CIG & math).

CIG offers that size (as mass) goes down as rates (%"c") go up.

As stated before, the mass on the downside converts to new volumes of Space on the upside. But, the size of the mass particle (what's left) goes down.

Can someone let me know if the correlation of particle sizes and their rates of travel is consistent with CIG prediction? And find a formula that correlates the two (size & rate).

Somewhere I posted why big things are slow and small things are small. This post goes alone with it.

Someone??

THX

doug

  • [deleted]

Douglas you wrote

"r2 F = G m1 m2

r2 F / m1 m2 = G

At "c" mass disappears and becomes its spatial equivalent.

Nearing "c", m1 m2 get smaller and smaller.

This appears to make G very big.

Where, "c" varies, m varies as well. This affects G (I don't know to much about G)"

c=1/G then Planck unit M of mass sqrt(hc/G) become sqrt(hc^2)=cxsqrt(h) not common with mass dimension.

  • [deleted]

Jim:

I suspected that, I wrought about commonly and generally known things of general relativity and another things of physics, because I give them as known, in any case I thought

If he doesn't, he will question me.

Well in this case not knowing physics it's not a problem but an advantage, physicists seriously think the subject belong to physics, they are wrong, since I knew that the so called "time" is "movement" (I was 27) I realize that this does not belong to any specific discipline, no physics, no philosophy and less mathematics, but if I have to choose one discipline I would choose anthropology, psychology and a little bit of psychiatry.

This days physicists, especially theoretical physicists are great mathematicians that never require the help of common physicists, that they needed badly, instead Einstein was a great physicist that always required the help of mathematicians. Physicists now are self-sufficient, wrong, when you don't know something ask about it .Most theoretical phyhsicists, after general relativity they start looking for "the theory of everything" for that they needed to know "the nature of time" Maldacena were looking for it many years, failed, then as great mathematician he is he joint and help to advance "the string theory" to reach his goal, Smolin, Rovelli, they look for "the time nature" failed then they made "the loop quantum theory" a quantum gravity theory, also hoping to reach their goal. Even Christopher Isham that insisted that to reach "the theory of everything" he said "we have to know "the time nature" it looks that finally got tired and is looking now for the "topos theory". And many more. All this show how important is to know "the time nature", not knowing this have a really bad consequence for the discipline. They are becoming lost. (just see google).

Jim don't be afraid to know. During 18 years I read physics not because I really like it but because after I knew that the so called "time" was "movement" and because of being out of the discipline I decided to write a book "TIEMPO" and this, was to give them what they needed, "the nature of time" and because I did not know for what physicists needed it, for what or were they needed it and also to communicate with them, I have to read physics. You Jim were searching for "the nature of time" and had not the same motivation I had.

To find "the nature of time" I did not relay either on physics and mathematics, I just knew, what people said, that Einstein was a genius, in those years I just was thinking of, how it was possible that speed can slow time? , just the opposite of you, many years after I find out that the so called "time" was "movement" I start reading physics.

I don't know nothing of physics, even if you did not know the little I know of it.To know "the nature of time" You would see, you only need elementary school mathematics and high school physics an this is more than enough.

The problem is really another, first read again what Einstein said: " "Ideas and Opinions" Einstein, pg.283 y 284, ISBN Nº 440-04150-150.

"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking. It is for this reason that the critical thinking of the physicist cannot possibly be restricted to the examination of the concepts of his own specific field. He cannot proceed without considering critically a much more difficult problem, the problem of analyzing the nature of everyday thinking.

Our psychological experience contains, in colorful succession, sense experiences, memory pictures of them, images, and feelings. In contrast to psychology, physics treats directly only of sense experiences and of the "understanding" of their connection. But even the concept of the "real external world" of everyday thinking rests exclusively of sense impressions"

Please Jim read this with full attention , specially the following three lines:

" the problem of analyzing the nature of everyday thinking".

"physics treats directly only of sense experiences"

"everyday thinking rests exclusively of sense impressions"

Our brains without our senses are nothing.

About what I did say that being a physicist, or if we did study physics was more than an advantage an inconvenient, Einstein suggested the same. You know that Faraday knew as much mathematics as you and me, and he did not study physics in any physic school, he tried to prove his discovery , with iron filling, and rubber bands. Einstein said : " It is fascinating to muse: would Faraday have discovered the law of electromagnetic induction if he had received a regular college education?. Unencumbered by the traditional way of thinking......".(page 335). But Faraday was lucky and was find by an intelligent physicist and mathematician, Maxwell that put mathematics to Faraday written laws.

You know, that when I was young I explain to a friend of main, that was shoes repairman, who among physicians, engineers, lawyers, physicists that I knew, he was the most intelligent, he did not want to be anything else, I thought him the basic necessary things and after I explained him a really complex metabolic process, He understood perfectly he explaining back to me. On a fishing trip I did the same to a fifty or so year's old man without a finished elementary school. You know culture and intelligence are related but are not the same.

People attribute to Schrödinger a 19 century Austrian physicist this: "If we explain to an intelligent 14 year old boy our idea and he does not understand it, it's a fraud". If we really know something we should be able to explain to any normal human being. But all this implied personal and not written explanation, this I find out it's more difficult.

Einstein himself explain what he did with general relativity , with words (no mathematics needed) in "Ideas and Opìnions". Since Newton "space" and "time" were considered as absolute, this means as an scenery " where , "when" and "where" events happen, with relativity "space" and "time" became relatives, these are no more fundamentals in some way these loose importance, this means these are not any more independents, at contrary these depend, i.e. of inertia and gravity "forces". When he said "velocity" and "gravity" of a body slow "time" for the body, every physicist knows that and also know how to calculate the slowing, having the data of the speed (respect to a coordinate system) of the body and the speed of light and can proved that mathematically (you don't need that). They can do that, but they don't know how speed and gravity slow the so called "time", they don't understand that, just because they don't know what the so called "time" is, to know how the slowing happen you have to know the experimental meaning of "time" , they are looking for it and they called it "the nature of time", concretely, what they measure with clocks, and what they are measuring is "movement" (they are not conscious of it) as a consequence the so called "the nature of time" is "movement" the Fqxi contest to which you present your article, could be answered with just one word "movement", to help them you can explain why.

This is the theoretical explanation, but later they proved this experimentally with the Hafele-Keating experiment (atomic clocks in an airplain) and the GPS (global positioning system) where especial and general relativity, the first slow the satellite clock (inertia) and the second accelerate the clock functioning because is to far from earth (gravity) you can look for them in google.

Just read with attention, you need no mathematics, Imagine an a especial air plain with an analogical clock inside, flying not to high , the air plain speed would increase the plain and the clock mass, this means inertia would increase if we refer to the so called "time", speed will slow the so called "time", nobody know how and why, but if you know that the so called "time" is "movement" you can understand that the inertia will slow clock moving parts in that way slowing clock functioning, respect a similar clock in land. What slows is the clock functioning not the inexistent so called "time"

i.e. Imagine you are in a power full car, steep on the accelerator your body would sink on the back seat, What else? It would become hard for you to move forward, upward, and to both sides, why? because inertia would make difficult every movement of you, will slow your movements, like the clock moving parts. So speed will slow "time"?. No, will slow clock functioning, will slow "movement" not the so called "time" because does not exist.

Please read again this: "We believe that, when we are looking at a clock, we are measuring "time", wrong we are measuring "movement". With the "constant" "uniform" or "regular" hour hand "movement" on the clock dial, we are measuring the

earth constant rotational "movement" fraction,

represented by the numbers on it, we just has measured "movement" with "movement" (and no "time" with "movement") We are not conscious that we are doing this, but as you see, can be physically proved. Two millenniums ago or more that we think we are measuring "time", it is hard to let this word "time" aside".

In short with the clock "constant" "movement"

we are measuring the earth "constant" rotational "movement" fraction,

represented by the dial numbers

We are measuring that and no the so called "time".

Clocks become practical copies of earth "constant" rotational "movement"

For all this you need no mathematics and almost no physics.

Einstein with mathematics "predicted" that speed would slow time, but if he did not born and there is no especial and general relativity. If you have the necessary means you would be able to prove this anyway (inertia and gravity slows "movement")

There are more things, but this is already to long. I hope you understand that they want to know what they are measuring with the clocks. I hope you understand they are measuring "movement." Mathematically everybody or most of them agree in what "space-time" is but there is not agreement on the real meaning of it, no physicist or most, don't know that Einstein made a verbal description of "space-time", and knowing that the so called "time" is "movement" you can see it's meaning much more clearly, and also you can explain why "space-time" can't be separated in "space" and "time" this physicists can't explained . There are many other things about the so called "time" but first you should know this. If you don't know something ask me pointedly. If you wanted to know the so called "the nature of time" since decades and you understood this post, read again all the other posts I wrote, will help.

Héctor

  • [deleted]

Hello Yuri,

RE: c=1/G then Planck unit M of mass sqrt(hc/G) become sqrt(hc^2)=cxsqrt(h) not common with mass dimension.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Can you explain what is happening here in words?

Mass dimensions must vary as new Space unfolds ( unfolding of extra dimensions) ? Maybe ... for the expanding Universe.??

[ ] Yes [ ] No

h = Planck constant = rate of spatial expansion ?? E=hf

Please elaborate on your post.

Have you read CIG ?

THX

doug

  • [deleted]

Dear Georgina:

I just overview the 2 articles you recommend , and as you say they are very interesting, first because he is not satisfied for what he calls the operational definition, second because he propose people to look for a real definition of the so called "time", third because he believes the real definition is possible to be achieved.

During the last 18 years I read innumerable articles about the so called "time" most of them with the head in the clouds and the feet's in the air. This two articles has not the head in the clouds, but has the feet's on the floor and this is much to say.

I did started for the end, first I find out the so called "the nature of time" and decades after when I found that the knowledge was needed, I start reading physics to connect to and be able to give to physicists the knowledge they so badly needed. I wrote a book "TIEMPO" that nobody read it, I tried to reach physicists really interested on the so called "time" by electronic mail, I fail, by air mail correspondence, fail (I understand why they don't read anything, probably I would do the same" Any way after classic physics, especial and general relativity, after quantum mechanics, were created developed and physicists work every day with them without any need of the so called "the nature of time", what for they needed it. After relativity theoretical physics start searching for a "theory of everything", most of them realized that for doing that they need to know the real definition and the empiric meaning of the so called "time" Maldacena look for it many years,fail, so join "the string theory" as a great mathematician he was able to unite many branches of the theory. Smolin Rovelly look for it many years, fail, they make the loop quantum theory a quantum greavity theory, there are others, even Chris Isham that always insisted, that first they needed to know "the nature of time" now is trying "the topos theory" to reach a "theory for everything"

So Science have a big problem when thousands of theoretical physicists needs to know that the so called "time" is "movement", somebody like me knows it and have no way to give them the knowledge, especially being a physician and a psychiatrist, they are convinced the this subject belongs to their discipline of course they are completely wrong, they have the inconvenient of being physicist to understand it. Everything start before presocratic Heraclito, a century after by Plato, and Aristotle, they were measuring "time" and they did not know it's meaning, so logically like in now days, they ask themselves What is time? instead asking, What we are measuring? if they did the last, they would find out that we did measure "movement", we measure "movement", and we would continue to measure "movement• (see the posts I send to Jim, specially the last one).

How come the so called "time" became "movement". I can't make it shorter.

Chapter one: this is not proved at all, but it is probable and would help a lot to understand how the so called "time" came by the hand of men to satisfied his needs, and this would clarified the way to also understand, how "time" just became a "remnant word" clearing the way to see in fact we are measuring "movement". Einstein said that looking into the origin of prescientific concepts as "time" and "space" we are as in an anthropologist search.

Certainly the first thing that call the attention of every living creature on the planet surface was the sun. For men since the very beginning that he could be considered men, light and obscurity were observed by them, and the conclusion that sun give them light and warm during day, and its lack darkness and cold during night, and the fact that this could be expected repeatedly by men animals and plants it became certain.

Men realized that sunrise repetition limited periods of about the same length that he called "day" I am convinced he already new how to count, and already on that epoch, before any civilization came about, he start comparing the length of their trips with "sun movement", when it went hiding and came back making a day. I think this was the first comparative measuring of the "movement" the sun made with the "movement" he made during his trip on land. It was the first measuring of "movement" with "movement", a one or two suns trip, or one or two days trip, probably it was the process of measuring, that were called "counting time", now days we probably called "counting sunrises" or counting days but the word "time" remained, comparing between of what he thought were sun "movement" with his "movement" during his trip did not reach our days and where forgotten. People keep saying we count "time". After this step they start dividing "sun passages" ,"movement", in several parts to measure with more precision , probably millenniums later Egyptians were able to divide the day in 24 equal parts which were called hours and later Sumerians divided the hour in 60 minutes and the minute in 60 seconds, and now days in millions parts with the atomic clock maximizing precision . Heraclito, hundred years later Plato, and Aristotle thought that the word "time", already imposed, meant, a manifestation of "movement" ,celestial body movement" and Aristotle firmly said "time" must be "movement" but a few lines later he retracted (continues )

"Movement" have a known definition, an empiric meaning, is a quality or property of every physical existing thing, so is everywhere , like the so called "time" they say there is

Héctor

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I disagree because c=1/G not clever idea.

for me h = Planck constant is real fundamental constant

I read CIG

Have you read http://vixra.org/author/yuri_danoyan ?

  • [deleted]

Yuri,

YES: I am reading : http://vixra.org/author/yuri_danoyan

what is Mpl ?

Thank you for reading CIG Theory

How do you feel Space is created? And at what expense so that Conservation of Energy is maintained?

doug