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Rob,

You write, " ... Karl Popper's falsifiability criteria cannot be used to distinguish a 'to be Preferred' choice, since they all produce identical predictions for any possible, future observations."

True. However, neither can a finite number of measurements inform us that Kepler's orbitals are elliptical.

This is one of the reasons that I think Albrecht's hypothesis has "legs," as they say in show business. I agree that (from your essay) "... the information content of equations is negligible in comparison to the information content of the initial conditions, specifically, the contents of the observer's memory." We get different conclusions from this statement, however. While we agree that "memoryless particles" and quantum nonlocality are simply language artifacts and not physically real -- I find that a continuum of consciousness and information (" ... two ideal clocks going at the same rate ...") implies self-similarity of every cosmological initial condition with every present measure result. IOW, every random fluctuation that separated ideal clocks initially, is a valid initial condition (as Albrecht finds) in the map of every evolved time parameter from future to past. Because no observer frame is privileged, these nonlinear webs are freely observer chosen.

That the condition of perfect randomness in the cosmological condition is equivalent to perfect information in probability theory, gives us infinite equally likely choices of initial condition -- and agrees with relativity in both the special and general cases as a fundamental physical theory. The problem of the cosmological singularity is obviated, and continuous function physics survives as a logical consequence of an essentially binary language (Wheeler) whose halting probability is extremely small.

If Albrecht is right, no finite number of measurements can predict the cosmological initial condition. Because Einstein *is* right, space is finite and time is an unbounded parameter of reversible trajectory in a continuous spacetime.

Tom

Tom,

An interesting coincidence, that you should bring up Kepler's Elliptical orbits. A couple weeks ago, as part of a reading and discussion group, at a local college, I just finished reading Galileo's "Sidereus Nuncius", in which he first described the mountains on the moon (He derived a better estimate for their height, than for the heights of the nearby Alps!), the discovery of Jupiter's moons etc., published in 1610. Galileo and Kepler corresponded, so this lead me to inquire into the relative timing of Galileo's and Kepler's discoveries. Kepler had gotten a position as a member of Tycho Brahe's staff. That gave him access to the most accurate measurements of stellar and planetary positions then existing. Using these "finite number of measurements" of the positions of Mars, Kepler deduced that Mars must be in an elliptical orbit. He published this finding in "Astronomia Nova", in 1609, the year before Galileo published "Sidereus Nuncius". I don't think Galileo ever accepted the notion of elliptical orbits. If he did, then it was long after Kepler published the idea.

Of course, due to the perturbations of the other planets, no planet is in a perfectly elliptical orbit, irrespective of however many measurements are available.

I will offer my thoughts about your other comments soon, in another post.

Rob McEachern

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Paul,

I value your intellectual desire and right to know. In that spirit I respond.

You write, "... it is what was physically received". And "what is" that?

The difference between our views is you believe we can know "physical existence" as is in itself and independent of our knowing mind. To quote again from my essay, The Metaphysics of Physics,

"Our understanding is deeply rooted in the 'view' we have.... In all cases, our explanation will only be a description of 'what happened'. Using words and ideas drawn from our beliefs. Though we can agree the Universe exists independent of us, our knowledge of the Universe cannot exist independent of our mind."

To claim we can know anything independent of our knowing mind is a self-contradiction. And all self-contradictions can only be resolved by insisting and requiring all others to believe in the same 'truth' of "what is". But this leads to "religious wars". In my view we cannot know "what is" but only our experiences of "what is". And this avoids such "metaphysical bickering" disputing "what is". Or so I hope...

Constantinos

Tom,

One last thought about Kepler's deduction of elliptical orbits: it was done using only measurements made with the naked eye, before the invention of the telescope. He not only made the deduction from a small "finite number of measurements", by modern standards, the accuracy of those measurements was really poor. Nevertheless, they still contained enough bits of information for him deduce an elliptical orbit. Way to go Kepler!

Regarding Albrecht's hypothesis:

If relativity theory has taught us anything, then it has taught us that the laws of physics may appear different, in different frames of references (including different apparent clocks), even when the laws are the same. So Albrecht has introduced an exotic, different apparent clock, and observes the laws appear different. I have no problem with that observation. But then he assumes that because the laws appear different, they must necessarily be different in reality. That is where I and old Albert say "not so fast". As Einstein demonstrated, one must first make a "change of variables", a "Transformation" to correct for the "subjectivity" of the asynchronous clocks. I see no evidence that that was even attempted, much less successfully accomplished. Of course, the article was only a highly simplified, second-hand account of Albrecht's work, but I was not instilled with confidence, when I looked at the Jacob Aron's New Scientist article, that you referenced earlier, and found the statement that "This controversial claim traces back to the uncertainty principle..." If you read my essay, then you know I have a rather dim view of most physicist's limited understanding of that principle. Great structures, built on poor foundations, frequently collapse (a new interpretation of wave-function collapse!)

Regarding the statement that "If Albrecht is right, no finite number of measurements can predict the cosmological initial condition", I agree that is true. But I would add Rob's corollary "If Albrecht is wrong, no finite number of measurements can predict the cosmological initial condition".

Rob McEachern

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Rob,

What I find most disturbing is the prediliction for assigning physical reality to the math, be it cosmic gearwheels to explain epicycles, fabric of spacetime to explain relativity, etc. It completely mythologizes and distorts the nature of math, as such it is entirely un-mathematical, since the effectiveness of math is to clarify what can be known, while this practice throws it open to fantastical speculation.

Of course, nothing can be falsified, if everytime there is a disconnect between theory and observation, some new epicyle is presumed to fit the space, from inflation to dark energy.

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Paul:

I hope you consider the following, part of physics and no religion. You use "time" and "timing" frecuently I suppose, you have a definition of "time" and the experimental meaning of "time" because you use these words ie."any given sequence can exist at a time" I suppose you mean at a given moment, like everybody would suppose. Problem is your diccionary would define "moment" using the word "time", so to understand your words, we must look at the diccionary for the word "time" and the diccionary would give you anything but a real definition of "time"

In writen history already pass 2600 years looking for the meaning of time nature. A cuple years ago Fqxi made a concurse about "The nature of time" I suppose nobody know its meaning. You said "because the predecessor must cease for the successor to exist." We have a word "continuous" when an arrow is flying there aren't any sequences, in nature either, the arrow made only one movement which is continuous. Men invented sequences "as we said in school we are goning to devided it for it's study- I said man invented "time". What you think? You also frecuently use the word "alteration" there can't be alteration or changes of any kind without movement. You said "oscillations are automatically converted for you into another expression, which is minutes, days, etc,The process was the oposit .To obtain more precision with days,hours,minutes and seconds which are fractions of earth rotación movement (which is only one) with those units and good clocks they measure how many cristal oscilations were in one second and find that were 9192631770 the advantage in precision is because earth rotation is slowing I think 1 minute every 100 years, so the atomic clock is more constant, uniform that earth. I also send you the new duration definition: As the period of change or transformation that movement allow and man limit. Why es the best definition I know, because you can find a good definition of each of the words I used to do it, instead if you look into your dictionary to define duration they will use the word "time" and that I know nobody knows its meaning, so we can't know the duration meaning. And words meaning are also important in science, we can't let them aside. Hector

    John,

    You stated that "What I find most disturbing is the prediliction for assigning physical reality to the math".

    Yet progress is made. Consider the following:

    If you followed some of the earlier discussion of F=ma and rockets, then you know that F=ma is the wrong equation to use, when the mass is not constant. The correct equation is F= the first derivative of the momentum, with respect to time. But wait! Does this mean that the force of gravity acts on momentum, rather than mass? Light has no mass, but it does have momentum. Does that mean that gravity might act on light? The momentum of light is proportional to its frequency, multiplied by a unit vector in the direction of propagation. Does that mean the force, the derivative (rate of change) of momentum, depends on the derivative of the frequency and the derivative of the unit vector? In other words, would gravity, acting on light, cause its frequency to change (gravitational red shift) and its propagation vector to change (its path is bent).

    Considerations such as these, starting with the simple equation, F=ma, ultimately lead Einstein to make his famous prediction, that the bending of light would be observable during a 1919 total eclipse of the sun.

    This "risky prediction", is the example cited by Karl Popper, as they way science ought to be done. Think about it. The eclipse only lasts a few minutes. It is only visible along a path, that is just a few miles wide. So Einstein predicted, "to the minute" and "to the mile" when and where he could be proven "Right", with a capital "R", or "Wrong", with a capital "W". Previous he was viewed as a smart, up and coming physicist. Successfully making that prediction ushered him into the pantheon previously occupied by only Newton and Maxwell. And it all starts with the realization that f=ma does not correctly describe the path of a rocket.

    Rob McEachern

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    Rob,

    I would like to state I have no professional standing in these discussions and I do have a high degree of respect for professionalism. In my own particular line of work, breaking and exercising race horses, it is easy to get hurt, or worse, if you don't know what you are doing. Simple physics plays a big part in this, thus my basic interest in the subject. That said, after several decades of trying to make sense of the subject, I've been forced to come up with a few of my own explanations for why things are. If I may, I would like to run a few more by you:

    A very basic problem I see with the expanding universe theory is that it relies on a constant speed of light. If space itself is expanding, wouldn't the speed of light have to increase proportionally? Say the universe expands enough that two galaxies x lightyears apart grow to be 2x lightyears apart. Wouldn't that simply be an increasing number of stable units of space, not an expansion of the proportional nature of space? As I see it, while the space between galaxies can be said to expand, galaxies themselves are contractions of the measure of space, thus what is growing between galaxies, is falling into them. As I see it, this is a mathematical description of mass contracting and light expanding. The expansion of light going back to my point about light not being a point particle when traveling.

    The other point is about gravity; When energy is released from mass, it goes Boom. E=mc2. The effect is enormous pressure, shock waves, destruction. So, wouldn't energy condensing into mass have the opposite effect and create a vacuum? Galaxies seem to be enormous gravitational vortices. Could it be they start on the fringes as cosmic rays turning into interstellar gases and other subatomic particles, which then continue condensing into ever more dense metals and on to the point where it gets so hot and dense, it is shot out the poles of the galaxies as cosmic rays/electrons? Not to mention all the light escaping anyway. Consider they can't find that dark matter circling galaxies, but there is an excess of cosmic rays and the furtherest perimeter stars are lacking in metals. So the question is, rather than gravity being a property of mass, could it be an effect of mass being created? This would definitely also explain why gravity bends light, or rather the collapse of light is gravity. Remember in the loading theory, light becomes a "particle" when it is absorbed by the atoms of the detector.

    Suffice to say, this is where the rotten tomatos start coming my way, so I'll leave it at that.

    • [deleted]

    Rob,

    If you need an equation, I suppose it would be M=e/c2

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    Constantinos

    "You write, "... it is what was physically received". And "what is" that?

    Light, noise, vibration, heat, etc, etc. The same physical phenomena which would otherwise have been received by that brick wall behind you, had you moved out of the way. All that is different is that you are an entity which has sensory systems which can then utilise this physical input in order to enable awareness of physical existence. It makes no difference to physical existence, both in the sense of what was physically received, and what physically created that, because that all occurred previously, obviously. The only physical effect reception has is that the phenomenon received ceases to exist in that physical form. To put this another way, turning my head round so that my eyes are not in the line of travel of the photon based representation of the wardrobes, dog, waste basket, etc, does not mean that physical existence has ceased, or altered in any way. It continues. It is just that the back of my head which receives the light is unable to process it.

    "The difference between our views is you believe we can know "physical existence" as is in itself and independent of our knowing mind"

    No, that is not what I think, neither is it the difference between us. I am stating that physical existence, as in the form of existence which we can know (either directly or via properly constructed hypothesis), given the existentially closed system we are trapped in, is what we must identify and investigate. We need the sensory systems/mind in order to have an awareness of it, but then must eradicate the 'interference' that that particular component of the process introduces. Because it has nothing to do with the physical circumstance, it concerns awareness of the physical circumstance. Physical circumstance is not affected by awareness, a feature which, in terms of the duration of physical existence, is a new development.

    Your view, as encapsulated in the quote you post, is that it is all metaphysical. Yes, obviously, in the sense that nothing can ever be proved absolutely. But that is the point, because the corollary of that is that whilst it cannot be proved against some unattainable absolute reference there is something which, of itself, is provable. If there was not, ie if there was no independent definitive form of existence, for us, we should all pack our bags and go and do something else. Because in that circumstance there is no reference for validity, ie 'anything goes'.

    "In my view we cannot know "what is" but only our experiences of "what is".

    Exactly, so why are you disagreeing with me? Answer: because within a validated closed system, you have not realised that one form of experience is correct. What we independently experience may be complete rubbish. Existence might be completely different from that which we are able to discern. But we can never know. We can only investigate existence as it is knowable to us. That is, there is one form of experience of 'what is', which can be deemed to be 'what is', because we are within a closed system which defines 'is'.

    Paul

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    Tom,

    You misunderstood. You write, "Physical laws are mathematical tautologies -- demonstrably false". This is not my position. What I have argued is physical laws SHOULD be mathematical tautologies in order to avoid physics morphing into metaphysics. I do agree that as currently formulated physical laws are NOT mathematical tautologies. But have shown, for example, Planck's Law can be derived as a mathematical tautology. Which does not depend on the physical assumption of the "quantization of energy hypothesis". And am arguing the same can be done with other Basic Law of Physics.

    Rob's example of how F=ma does not apply to a rocket is totally absurd! This only shows that any formula (whether a physical law or a mathematical identity) can be misapplied when the premises to it are not satisfied.

    Constantinos

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    Constantinos

    "You write, "you are depicting all circumstances as being metaphysical". Wrong! I am arguing when we seek to describe "what is" the Universe (Nature) we ultimately fail because such knowledge is 'metaphysical' in essence"

    See my reply in the other thread for a fuller response. Whether it is metaphysical "in essence" is irrelevant. Because that statement only hold true if the reference is a mythical absolute, which can never be obtained. If A, there is always the logical possibility of not-A. The point is that there is A, and from within it, A can be discerned without any intrusion of metaphysics, ie what it might not be. Another way of addressing what you are saying is to question how then do we know, having discerned, what is and what is not. There is some implicit validity reference there, otherwise anybody can discern anything, and declare it as what is. Which brings us all back to the fact that there is one form of physical existence that constitutes 'is', for us. Discerning, without first understanding this generically, might arrive at the answer, but it is presuming physical existence as an abstract concept, which it is not, and there is a very real danger of 'metaphysical creep' in that approach.

    "Your depiction of "what is" as being "one physically existent state at a time" is 'metaphysical'.

    Not so. It is a statement of fact concerning the existentially closed system we are trapped in. It derives from two facts about that form of existence, ie independence, and alteration.

    Paul

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    Paul,

    Let me try this. Consider the "what is" to be a person. Each of us will have different experiences of that person. But can we know that person as they are truly? I argue no we cannot. But can only know our experiences of that person.

    Knowing Nature truly as Nature "is" is no more possible than knowing another human being. Don't you think?

    Constantinos

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    Rob

    Your post 24/2 15.58, re Einstein. Whilst this is repeating a post above (to Ananymousse), the only way I can respond to this is with the same paragraphs, the reference is 1905 section 1 part 1:

    1 A and B were each attributed a time (local) of existence, ie t(a) and t(b). Either there was a relationship between these timings, or not. If there was a relationship, then there was no timing issue to resolve. If there was no relationship, then nothing further could have been discerned from this information since they were therefore variables defined on the basis of different references with no known relationship.

    2 So there must have been a presumption that the timing devices were synchronised (ie working properly), even though this was not recognised. That is because the reference for timing was not understood, it being a conceptual constant rate of change, ie not the timing devices, which just 'tell' the time, and are only valid if related to this reference (ie synchronised), within the realms of practicality. This must be so, otherwise the timing system is useless.

    3 Hence the timing relationship which supposedly needed to be inferred, ie "local time" to a "common time", was known already, and was a false distinction implying a extra layer of timing for which there was no physical justification. Presumption of the distance AB meant that A and B must have been existent at the same time, ie t(a) equalled t(b). Had the times been different, then A could not have been compared to B, and distance established, because they were not existent at the same time.

    4 The comparison of AB to BA was effected in terms of time incurred with consecutive, not concurrent, timings. This was incorrect. Not only is there no duration in a spatial circumstance, but AB cannot be compared to BA on the basis of subsequent timings. Because such timings cannot be presumed to relate to AB, as either A and/or B could have altered over time, and therefore the distance could have altered. The measurement can only represent whatever was deemed to constitute A and B, and therefore AB, at a specific time.

    5 The quantification of distance in terms of a conceptual duration incurred, was not an issue, had it been understood. Neither was the use of light to do this, with the condition that its speed be deemed constant, inherently a problem. Any method, involving any direction, would suffice, if properly calculated and represented. The errors were assuming physical existence, and hence any artefact thereof (eg distance), continues to exist in the same physically existent state over time, and a misunderstanding of the reference used in timing.

    6 It is argued that the AB example is explainable in terms of observation. So time of existence, and time of observation (ie receipt of light), were asserted by Einstein to be the same if whatever was involved was in the "immediate proximity". This is correct as an approximation, though would need definition. But in reality there is always a difference, which is fundamental to highlighting the flaw in his argument.

    7 Introducing the differential between time of existence, and time of observation of existence, is irrelevant. As before, the timing devices must be synchronised, otherwise these timings are meaningless, and if the distance AB is presumed, then A and B must have existed at the same time. Alternatively, if A and B did not exist at the same time, then there could not be a distance AB to observe.

    8 Therefore, in the context of observation, assuming a simplification of the real conditions, any difference in these times could only be a function of the time delay for light to travel from B to A, or vice versa, and not a reflection of some other variance. That is, again there is no issue to be resolved. The difference in timing would have been because they were observations of reality (ie receipts of light). However, there was no observational light in Einstein's writings and theory anyway.

    9 Physically, there is always a distance and therefore a delay whilst light travels; and there must always be light in order to observe. Indeed, what was the spatial relationship between the observer and the light as at the time of existence and creation of the light, could alter whilst the light is travelling. Neither is physical existence affected by observation, because it occurred before that, and was not involved in that interaction. That being with the physically existent representation of that reality (eg light), which then just ceases to exist in that physical form, in the same way as it would if the interaction had been with an inanimate entity.

    10 By substituting c for v, ie a specific velocity for a generic one, c was asserted to be: 2AB/(t'(a) - t(a)). Which was wrong because that time involved duration incurred from subsequent timings, apart from being deemed an elapsed time in both cases anyway, which it is not. Assuming the quantity is doubled, it should be either twice A to B or B to A, or the sum of A to B and B to A incurred at the same time. So it should be: c = 2AB/2(t(a) - t(b)). Or simply, as considering either direction is superfluous, c = AB/(t(a) - t(b)). Which, although correct, is a statement of the obvious. That is, the velocity is a ratio of total distance travelled to the time taken to do so, ie the definition of velocity.

    11 A key point is that the light Einstein referred to was not observational light anyway. He was using it as an example of a conceptual constant reference against which to measure time and distance. There was just a dissassociated "ray of light", an entity referred to as an "observer", and the concept of "frames of reference", which can leave the reader with the impression that observation has been accounted for. Whereas, in fact, he only invoked a constant, the determining factor being how he deployed that in the narrative/equations, not what he called it. A timing/spatial reference is by definition, a constant, while in practice observational light approximates to a constant, which further disguises the mistake.

    12 Einstein failed to differentiate physical existence from the physical representation of it (eg light). He equated the reality of light with physical reality, so there was no observation (ie receipt of light), and the time delay which does occur between time of existence and time of receipt of light, was consequently eliminated. This was counterbalanced by his failure to understand the reference for timing, which followed the flawed concept of simultaneity by Poincaré. In sum, Einstein shifted the time differential which does occur, from the finish of the physical process to the start, deeming it be to a characteristic of physical existence.

    One point to add to this (which is obviusly an abstract), which has arisen in a subsequent post, is that if physical and light reality have been conflated, and c was not actually light speed anyway, but just a constant. Then the apparition of c, as in light speed, in so many equations and explanations of physical existence is incorrect. For example, how does the speed of the phenomenon which enables sight have a physical impact on energy?

    Paul

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    Hector

    Yes, as explained previously, timig is a measuring system, time being an alternative word for duration, which is the unit of the system. What is being measured is rate of alteration in physical existence. The precision of any given mechanism in manifesting a rate of change reference, is irrelevant. This does not change the intent of timing, neither does it change what actually occurred, it just means your measured rate will be somewhat out.

    Continuous means the same physically existent state, which does not occur. As a statement of the blindingly obvious, physical existence alters.

    Paul

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    Paul, you write

    "there is one form of experience of 'what is', which can be deemed to be 'what is', because we are within a closed system which defines 'is' ". This does not make sense to me. Sorry!

    Constantinos

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    You are like a detective who has not seen all the clues. There are hundreds of experimental results, and an exact proof from 1966-7 (the Rietdijk-Putnam argument) that the stadard view of SR leads to time only appearing to move. If you wish to argue that time does actually move, you need to show why that proof is wrong. It's based on simultaneity across a distance, as in Minkowski spacetime. But don't start into your intuition on that, or your definitions of words. Go to a philosophy site, but even there things will be more pinned down than you make them. And in physics we need specifics.

    • [deleted]

    Hi Rob,

    You write: "Regarding the statement that 'If Albrecht is right, no finite number of measurements can predict the cosmological initial condition,' I agree that is true. But I would add Rob's corollary 'If Albrecht is wrong, no finite number of measurements can predict the cosmological initial condition.'"

    I find that a false dichotomy. What I mean, is that if an infinite number of cosmological initial conditions are consistent with the world we observe today, there is profound agreement with relativity that every observer frame is valid for every free choice of measurement in any spacetime locality.

    The issue of whether any cosmological singularity (we know that general relativity cannot avoid singularities) is a unique initial condition for our present world is therefore mooted.

    Albrecht's hypothesis is consistent with my own research conclusion that Einstein's equations for general relativity, describing a universe finite in time and unbounded in space, remain unchanged for a universe finite in space and unbounded in time. This is also consistent with Perelman's proof of the Poincare Conjecture for 3-manifolds; i.e., using Ricci flow with surgery, he proves that every singularity is extinguished in finite time -- this being true, requires finite space because the manifold must accommodate finite fundamental group (a loop shrunk to a point) at every location.

    I share your admiration for Kepler. His observations certainly qualify as a case of Popper's "bold conjectures." What's more, though, we get the first hint in Kepler that "perfection" in the universe is not a geometric property -- orbitals that are almost perfect circles are only perfect when reconciled with perturbative relative motions. Of course, Einstein's desire is to have a non-perturbative complete theory free of singularities -- and I think the current research makes great progress toward that goal.

    Tom

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    Tom,

    Really. Time is a measure of action.

    And it goes to Albrecht's problem of trying to find one clock.

    Rather than assuming there are multiverses.

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    Doug -

    You are wrong and keep mixing up things, again. I know. Remember simply that GRAVITATION = ACCELERATION when thinking time dilation. Think the elevator experiment.

    The lower the gravitational potential (the closer the clock is to the source of gravitation), the more slowly time passes.

    Your analogy above then is corrected as follows:

    "Each field is different, Each clock is different in each field (because a faster clock on earth sees a more dense hand ticking, alternately, in spacial orbit, the hands are spread out into the field they are within, and hence tick slower)" SHOULD READ :

    Each field is different, Each clock is different in each field (because a slower clock on earth sees a more dense hand ticking, (more resistance) alternately, in spacial orbit, the hands are spread out into the field they are within, and hence tick faster (less resistance).

    They (the clocks) attempt to reach equilibrium with their surrounding field.

    Full gravity = black hole (one time vector direction in MTS)

    Full Acceleration = Vacuum Energy (the other time vector in MTS)

    To maintain biblical accuracy, I believe that we should make the vector Matter from Space as being forward time (Genesis: out the void/nothingness, etc.). Then reverse vector time would be matter accelerating.

    Therefore the equation is STM.

    Standard Theoretical Madness

    Peter, are you with me?