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Time is fundamentally the same in quantum physics, relativity and newtonian mechanics. Meaning it can be reversed according to the formulation. Thermodynamics has the arrow of time where you can not reverse time. So Albrecht is essentially comparing the same concepts of time.

A clock is not a list of numbers showing the progress of time. Anything can be a clock as long as it has a periodic mode. What happens when an infinite cube vibrates? It means the vibration is outside the 3-D space. Wave functions are not a part of 3-D space but are connect to that space!

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Paul,

If you seek to tell the world that "there is something wrong with Modern Physics", you have no dispute with me and many others. But the "what" is more telling than the "that". Your suggestion to stare at a blank page doesn't do it for me. "Incorrectly constituting physical existence" is impossible; if physical existence is indeed "constituted". This is equivalent to saying "what you think is not a thought".

The Universe is 'closed' for some, while 'open' for others. As for discovering the meaning of life ... well, I believe it is in (be)living it!

Constantinos

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John,

You wrote, "I certainly agree time is simply a measure, 'mathematical convenience,' if you will, but why then is spacetime 'physically real?'"

Einstein explained this in *The Meaning of Relativity.* In his introduction to general relativity, seeing that Minkowski had successfully obviated the independence of time and space, Einstein wrote:

"All of the previous considerations have been based upon the assumption that all inertial systems are equivalent for the description of physical phenomena, but that they are preferred, for the formulation of the laws of nature, to spaces of reference in a different state of motion. We can think of no cause for this preference for definite states of motion to all others, according to our previous considerations, either in the perceptible bodies or in the concept of motion; on the contrary, it must be regarded as an independent property of the space-time continuum. The principle of inertia, in particular, seems to compel us to ascribe physically objective properties to the space-time continuum. Just as it was necessary from the Newtonian standpoint to make both the statements, tempus est absolutum, spatium est absolutum, so from the standpoint of the special theory of relativity we must say, continuum spatii et temporis est absolutum. In this latter statement absolutum means not only 'physically real,' but also 'independent in its physical properties, having a physical effect, but not itself influenced by physical conditions.'"

As I have tried to get across for years, to you and others who want to sneak a preferred reference frame into your ideas -- it doesn't work. The physics is against you.

You write, "As for temperature, if you were to pour hot water into cold water, it would be quite simple to guess what the temperature will be in the future."

You think so, eh? Try doing it with numbers. Try to understand the role of Euler's constant e. Then try doing it without boundary conditions. This is the trouble, John, with thinking that physical laws, a la Aristotlean logic, are intuitive (against all evidence that most of what we actually know objectively is counterintuitive) -- you think that because equilibirum thermodynamics in simple systems like coffee and cream just tastes right, the universe must be that simple in general. Throughout nature, though, we actually encounter nonequilibrium thermodynamics (by which everything that we call "life" functions), adiabatic heating and cooling, and other complex relationships.

"As for space and temperature, can you propose temperature independent of volume?"

You bet I can. But why should I expend my own energy when the masters have already covered it? Einstein writes immediately after the preceding: "As long as the principle of inertia is regarded as the keystone of physics, this standpoint is certainly the only one which is justifed. But there are two serious criticisms of the ordinary conception. In the first place, it is contrary to the mode of thinking in science to conceive of a thing (the space time continuum) which acts itself, but which cannot be acted upon. This is the reason why E. Mach was led to make the attempt to eliminate space as an active cause in the system of mechanics. According to him, a material particle does not move in unaccelerated motion relatively to space, but relatively to the centre of all the other masses in the universe; in this way the series of causes of mechanical phenomena was closed, in contrast to the mechanics of Newton and Galileo. In order to develop this idea within the limits of the modern theory of action through a medium, the properties of the space-time continuum which determine inertia must be regarded as field properties of space, analogous to the electromagnetic field. The concepts of classical mechanics afford no way of expressing this. For this reason Mach's attempt at a solution failed for the time being."

No space = no volume. Motion is purely relative in Mach's mechanics.

"And where did I say time is independent of space?"

Ah, so now you are going to say that not only is time not physically real, space is also not physically real, and therefore and certainly, spacetime is not physically real? As I have been asking you all along, John, just where is the physics in your idea of the universe?

"What are more basic physical situations than the cosmic background radiation and vacuum fluctuation, both of which would seem to be thermodynamic conditions, than spacetime ones?"

Listen closely to Einstein for the definition of "physically real" -- " ... independent in its properties, having a physical effect, but not itself influenced by physical conditions." CBR is believed to be the dying embers of a big bang event, and thus dependent on physical conditions. Quantum fluctuations are dependent not only on a purely mathematical hypothesis of "equally likely" events, but on the condition of extreme energy densities.

Tom

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Tom,

I'm not saying time and space are not real, as I've argued time is an effect of action and space is inertial and infinite, since it has no properties that can be moved, warped, bounded, etc.

Rather than go through the reasons I see space as an infinite, inertial frame again, I'll go back to the differences between time and temperature.

Consider the uncertainty principle and position vs. momentum; With measures of time you are looking at a series of positions of a particular process, be it crests of waves, marks on a clock, locations of a particle, etc. Then the measure is the duration between them, as they effect whatever the process is. This is a vector.

With temperature you are measuring the momentum of a quantity of particles/actions, at a particular state. So it is a scalar.

Now the time measurement exists in a larger, dynamic situation, or it is not measuring anything, but is simply an isolated process. Meanwhile the thermodynamic situation is composed of numerous individual actions, marking their own measure of time. That is how these two distinct measures are bedded within the same activity.

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Tom,

Unfortunately I'm working on a phone at the moment and can't cut and paste, but it seems very much in the Einstein quote that he is arguing for an inertial frame as physically real, but includes a time vector with space. Wouldn't it simplify the model if time could be demoted to effect? That way, there is still a variable clock rate and all the other lensing and warping of bodies and effects, without the blocktime, wormhole type speculations.

Forget I'm proposing it and assume, for a moment, that someone with a phd put it out for consideration.

" . . . assume, for a moment, that someone with a phd put it out for consideration."

A PhD in what discipline?

Tom

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Tom,

You are right. There is no physics field that looks at reality in general terms. Let me just rephrase the question in as basic terms as possible;

If you have a theory where time is axiomatic, versus one where it is emergent, which would be simpler?

Not whether which is right, just which is simpler.

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John,

time is both an effect as you and J.C. N. smith, I and others say -but it is also an integral and necessary part of an Observed Image universe, because of the non infinite speed of em data transmission.

Electromagnetic variation information, potential sensory data, may lead to production a space-time image. Even though the output image only exists at one time, not several, THE CONTENT of the image does show a spread of time. There is an important difference between an image (think of a photograph) as something and the content of the image. For analogy, a bit like the difference between a book and the contents of the book. The material book exists at only one time not across several times but the tale within might be spread over a lifetime or generations, or even aeons of time.

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Constantinos

My point about the 'blank sheet of paper' was to invite others to think about it. After all, I have been providing the answer in postings for some time. Anyway, a short version is below. This of course runs the risk of not 'covering off all the angles', it takes about 15/20 pages to do that. The crux of the argument being that it is very easy to presume a flawed constitution for physical existence, and then develop a theory based on it.

In short:

The start point is that there is existence of some form or other. But by definition, being aware of it, means that we can only know of, what must be presumed to be, a particular form of existence. Which could be characterised as having 'detectability', or the proven potential thereof based on previously verified detection and knowledge of the physical process enabling that. This is because we cannot transcend the physical process underpinning awareness.

So whether there 'are' alternative forms of existence to this, or whether this is 'really' existence, is irrelevant, because we cannot be aware of them. This is what we must analyse. The entire circumstance for us comprises awareness caused by a form of physical existence, which after processing results in either knowledge or not-knowledge. Knowledge being the equivalent of the form of existence available to us, as at that time, not-knowedge being belief.

Awareness involves sensing physical existence, ie receiving physical input (which includes both what is received and what can be hypothesised as potentially receivable). Receiving being in the line of travel and interacting with. For this to occur, there must be something which is independently existent of the detection systems, since it involves receipt, and because otherwise those detection systems would never have evolved. The subsequent processing of what is received is irrelevant to the physics. The fact that a sentient organism, as opposed to an inanimate entity, can utilise what is received can have no effect on physical existence.

The ontological/epistemological conundrum being that as we cannot transcend the form of existence available to us, any comparison with what 'actually' happened is not possible. Whilst the physical processes which result in what we receive are not physically perfect, and/or we are able to 'enhance' awareness of the resultant physical output of those processes during subsequent processing. So, in establishing knowledge, and differentiating it from belief, these issues must be overcome.

Furthermore, while what is received is, of itself, physically existent (ie light, noise, etc), it is only a representation of what physically occurred. Because it is the result of an interaction with that, and enables awareness of it due to the evolution of sensory systems. A feature of these phenomena being that the physically existent state of the representation (ie what is detectable) does not alter (or nearly so) whilst in existence.

The differentiation between the physical phenomena received, and those which caused them, is critical, as:

-what is received is only a representation of what physically existed

-the phenomena involved in capturing and transmitting this representation have physical properties of their own which influence the extent to which they can effect this acquired functional role, ie representing reality perfectly

-there is always a time delay between physical occurrence, and the receipt of any representation.

Our physical existence comprises those existent phenomena which are sensorially detectable by any organism (or proven they could have been so), and the phenomena then proven to have caused them. Proof of existence being based on verified experienceability, either directly or indirectly effected.

Given the input received, we can identify that the form of physical existence we can know has two fundamental characteristics:

-what occurs, does so independently of the processes which detect it

-it involves change/alteration, ie comparison of inputs received reveals difference

This means that the physical existence we can know is existential sequence. The entirety of whatever comprises it can only exist within that sequence in one definitive physically existent state at a time, as the predecessor must cease to exist so that the successor can exist. In sum: to be physically existent, by definition, entails no form of change or indefiniteness in whatever is existent at any given time, change being a feature of the difference between physically existent states. And therefore, physical existence is a spatial phenomenon, which alters over time.

Paul

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Anonymousse

The standard view of SR is incorrect. Einstein clearly defines it as a hypothetical circumstance where the is no gravitational force, so there is only uniform rectilinear and non-rotary motion, light that travels in straight lines at a constant speed, and fixed shape bodies. That is, SR is not what was written in 1905.

However, that is irrelevant anyway, because the supposed dichotomy between light and a constant is a red herring. Einstein has no light, there is no observational light in his theory for 'observers' to observe with. He uses a constant against which to measure duration and distance, and calls this light, but it is not light, just a conceptual constant. His fundamental fault was in failing to differentiate physical existence from the light based representation thereof which we receive. That is where the timing difference is. His concept of the relativity of physical existence is incorrect.

As I said before, there are no problems with the flow of time, assuming that one understands properly what is actually happening. Physical existence is an existential sequence. At any given time, it exists in one definitive physically existent state. There is alteration from one physically existent state to the next, that occurs at a rate, which is what timing measures. Motion, ie alteration in spatial position, being only one example of change.

Paul

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Peter

You made the differentiation between point particles and waves, not me.

"But now let's stop assuming things and look more carefully at what 'speed' and 'motion' are. They are relative concepts..."

This is where your theory is flawed. It has nothing to do with 'rest states'. Observation, or any form of sensing, can have no effect on physical existence. The issue is about physically existential state. And we cannot know this, because we cannot externalise ourselves from it. But the corollary of this is that we are in a closed system. Therefore, whilst we can never 'actually' know what is moving and how fast, etc, etc, we can know within the closed syatem. And in order to do that, one can select any entity and deem it the reference, then compare any other entity with it, and identify the difference. Within the closed system, it is these differences that are real. Such calibration necessitates the use of the same reference for all the results to be comparable. That analysis is certainly not achieved via whatever happens to be the 'local background frame', because you are not maintaining consistency of reference.

Paul

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Time is not an effect, the physical feature which timing is measuring is the rate at which alteration occurs in any given physically existent state.

Space-time is incorrect, as too is Einstein's concept of relativity. Physical existence can only be in one definitive physically existent state at any given time. There is then alteration (which occurs in many forms)and hence a different physically existent state supercedes. Physical existence is just a spatial phenomenon which alters over time. the timing differential which Einstein thought was a characteristic of physical existence is actually the difference in timing between time of existence and time of reeipt of representation thereof (eg light).

Paul

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Paul,

The concept of Space-time and Einstein's relativity greatly advanced the comprehension of observed reality. Those two concepts are not WRONG they have just been misunderstood for a very long time. Despite their many discussions Einstein and Kurt Godel did not manage to overcome the persistent problem of the nature of time and Einstein knew that his work was incomplete. However they had, all that time ago, identified time as a very important problem.

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John,

You wrote, "You are right. There is no physics field that looks at reality in general terms."

No kidding. Just what do you think I've been preaching all these years -- not just about how physics works, but how science itself functions?

One can always find a way to keep asking the same question, over and over, and it leads nowhere.

Andreas Albrecht explains in precise terms that the question hinders progress toward a unifying theory, and the silence is deafening. The message couldn't be clearer:

There ain't no reality in science.

Tom

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Dang it. I'm going to stop logging in.

Tom

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John,

To try and ensure that my point wasn't lost, I'll answer your question with another:

"If you have a theory where time is axiomatic, versus one where it is emergent, which would be simpler?

Not whether which is right, just which is simpler."

Where's the physics in your proposition?

Tom

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No matter how many times some cites an idea does not make it correct. As a theoretical physicist you are suppose to make some undiscovered predications. Einstein's space-time concept made a lot of undiscovered predictions. Expanding on Guth's work is a strange way to being because that theory was developed explain something that should have been predicted.

Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Dark Flow, The accelerating Universe. All these fundamental measurements were not predicted but fused into old theories. It is like taking a mathematical conclusion and just attaching it to the end of any mathematical proof. How does any of these logics actually lead to those conclusions.

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    You can record a period without time but you cannot record time without a periodic structure or clocking system. The fundamentals behind that synchronization has already been solved.

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    Georgina,

    Good to hear from you again!

    It is a sea of non-linear information carrying energy, that we have to filter through the linear process of our mind. sometimes it does present convenient narrative arcs of expansion and consolidation and sometimes our minds stitch one together, but the essential reality is it doesn't stop. The enregy is always going somewhere and doing something.

    Tom,

    That does go to the point about generalization and specialization and how easy it is to focus on the details and let the big picture work itself out.

    A simpler explanation would satisfy Ockham's razor. Being able to explain reality in terms of the fewest possible axioms would seem to be the direction of progress for physics.

    "The principle of inertia, in particular, seems to compel us to ascribe physically objective properties to the space-time continuum. Just as it was necessary from the Newtonian standpoint to make both the statements, tempus est absolutum, spatium est absolutum, so from the standpoint of the special theory of relativity we must say, continuum spatii et temporis est absolutum. In this latter statement absolutum means not only 'physically real,' but also 'independent in its physical properties, having a physical effect, but not itself influenced by physical conditions.'"

    So if inertia could be ascribed to space alone, with time as an effect of the mass and energy, it would present a more efficient model of reality.

    "There ain't no time in inertia!"