Paul,

Here's a short response and this is it! You say:

" [...] And anyway, you need to come up with some reality based argument against it. And within the confines of physical existence as knowable to us, not some invoked belief [...]"

So here's the deal:

Recruit a couple of friends to help you. Position yourself at a mile marker on a long, preferably straight, section of highway with a friend at a distant mile marker, say 10 miles away. Implement a modern method of communication between yourself and the friend at the distant mile marker. Calibrate two stopwatches so that you and the distant mile marker friend can each operate one of the calibrated stopwatches. Have your second friend drive his car on cruise control, starting say five miles prior to your mile marker and ending five miles past your distant friend's mile marker. When the car passes your mile marker start your stop watch and signal your friend to start his. When the car passes the 10 miles distant marker your friend signals you and you both stop your stopwatches. Perform this operation several times with the car always travelling at the same speed - according to the cruise control. Find the average mean using the timed results from both you and your friend's stopwatches, this will give you the time it took the car to travel 10 miles while averaging out the human induced error. Now, whatever value you end up with, divide 10 miles by that value, say in seconds, and you will have the car's (object's) velocity in miles per second. Multiply this by 3600 and you will obtain the car's (object's) velocity in miles per hour. Compare this with the speedometer of the car.

I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that reality is digital, hence, sequential, and it's been shown that human perception is so, but regardless, this is simple algebra Paul. Technically, x = x0 vt, where x0 is the initial position but if you make x0 the origin then it reduces to x = vt - provided velocity is constant or approximately so. It holds whether the reality perceived is discrete or continuous! It maps a specific portion of the object's history. You do allow that there are histories in reality, don't you? Anyway, I'm through . . .

With regards,

Wes Hansen

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Wes

Sorry, I do not understand the point of your car example.

My point is that physical existence is definitive, but that is at a level which could be described as a physically existent state. The car is not a physically existent state. Put it under an electron microscope for a start. Although that we not be capable of differentiating a 'degree of difference' (ie a physical state), it will certainly confirm what we know, ie nothing is in a fixed physical state. The car just looks as if it is, because we are defining it in terms of superficial physical characteristics. In other words, the 'car' that starts is not the same as the 'car' which finishes. Indeed, it is not the same after a vanishingly small duration from the start.

Now, obviously, this does not matter, and indeed cannot as we would all go mad, in 'ordinary' situations. But every situation, physically, is the same. As I said in my first post "How can physical existence occur in two 'different ways'? Existence and difference cannot be reconciled except by sequence of discrete definitive physically existent states. What has happened here is that although we know there is existence and difference, we have not taken this to its logical conclusion. And the proper way of understanding physical existence has thereby 'withered on the vine', and become depicted as a sort of 'two dimensional' view (classical, etc). Whereas in fact, the new 'dynamic' approach is wrong, because in order for it to 'work' it presumes indefiniteness of one form or another in physical existence. Which it then has to rationalise by all sorts of bizarre methods which have no correspondence in physical existence.

So, the point is, as said previously, measuring distance in terms of duration is purely conceptual. It does not correspond with how physical existence occurs. The result is just an alternative expression to, and the equivalent of, a specific spatial measure, ie the difference in spatial position as at the same time of existence. The event as conceived cannot actually happen.

Paul

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Wes

I do not think your car example was a point about timing. But here is the argument why Einstein was wrong, on timing. It does not require the 'sequence' presumption. Einstein just did not understand timing, because he was using Poincaré's flawed concept of simultaneity.

The misconception of time and timing (the AB example)

4 Einstein: On the electrodynamics of moving bodies (1905), Section 1 Part 1, Definition of Simultaneity, is the reference.

5 The events A and B were each attributed a time ("local") of existence, ie t(a) and t(b). Either there was a relationship between these timings, or not. If there was a relationship, then there was no timing issue to resolve. If there was no relationship, then nothing further could have been discerned since they were therefore variables defined on the basis of different references with no known relationship.

6 Put another way, presuming that the times represented when the events occurred, then whether they were the same is potentially irrelevant. Any given event must occur at a specific time. Whether events happened to occur at the same time does not necessarily imply any physical significance. However the analysis involved the distance AB, and there cannot be a distance between something which exists and something else which does not. Therefore, A and B existed at the same time.

7 Yet another way of putting this is that establishing the timing relationship of A and B must involve another reference, so that the two can be compared and any difference identified. But this is what timing does, because the time shown on any device only has meaning if it is corresponds with the single reference to which all such devices are related, ie a conceptual constant rate of change. That is why they must be synchronised, otherwise the system is useless, allowing for the practicalities of so doing. That reference is not another time, but the time (in Einstein's terminology "common time"). Timing devices just 'tell' the time.

8 Hence the timing relationship which supposedly needed to be inferred, ie "local time" to "common time", was non-existent; a false distinction which resulted in a superfluous 'layer' of timing for which there was no justification. Presumption of the distance AB meant that A and B must have been existent at the same time anyway, although this, as with what is the reference for timing, was not understood. That is, t(a) must have equalled t(b), and there was no issue to resolve. This timing mistake reflects reliance on Poincaré's flawed concept of simultaneity.

9 Furthermore, the comparison of AB to BA was effected in terms of time incurred with consecutive, not concurrent, timings. This was also incorrect. Not only is there no duration in a spatial circumstance, but AB cannot be compared to BA on the basis of subsequent timings. Because such timings cannot be presumed to relate to AB, as either A and/or B could have altered over that time, and therefore the distance could have altered. The measurement can only represent whatever was deemed to constitute A and B, and therefore AB, at a specific time.

10 The quantification of distance in terms of a conceptual duration incurred was not an issue, had it been understood. Neither was the use of an example of light as the reference for calibrating distance and duration, with the condition that its speed be deemed constant, inherently a problem (although this was not observational light). Any method, involving any direction, and any constant, would suffice for measuring a distance, if properly calculated and represented. Leaving aside the failure to differentiate existent reality from the existent light based representation of it (see below), the errors, in this limited context, were assuming physical existence, and hence any artefact thereof (eg distance), continues to exist in the same physically existent state over time, and not understanding the reference used for timing.

The misconception of observation

11 It is argued that the AB example is explainable in terms of observation. Time of existence, and time of observation (ie receipt of light), were asserted by Einstein to be the same if whatever was involved was in the "immediate proximity". This is correct as an approximation, though would need definition. But in reality there is always a difference, which is fundamental to highlighting the flaw in his argument. The physically existent occurrence, physically existent light, and physically existent observer, are all physically separate. Therefore, there will always be a delay whilst light, which is a physically existent representation of the occurrence, travels and, in a few cases, is received (ie is in the line of travel of, and interacts with) by an entity which can process the physical input available.

12 Introducing the differential between time of existence, and time of observation of existence, is irrelevant. As before, the timing devices must have been synchronised, otherwise the timings were meaningless, and since the distance AB is presumed, then A and B must have existed at the same time. If A and B did not exist at the same time, then there could not have been a distance AB to observe.

13 In the context of observation then, assuming a simplification of the real conditions, these timings must represent the time at which light was received, and any difference could only have been a function of the time delay for light to travel from B to A, or vice versa. That is, again there is no issue to resolve. The difference in timing would have been because these were observations of reality (ie receipts of light), not the occurrence of reality. However, there was no observational light in Einstein's theories anyway, just a constant, which happened to be an example of light.

14 There is always a distance and therefore a delay whilst light travels. Indeed, what was the spatial relationship between the observer and the light as at the time of occurrence and the creation of that light, could alter whilst it is travelling. Neither is physical existence, either in terms of the occurrence, or the representation of it (eg light), affected physically by observation (eg receipt of light) and the subsequent processing. Because that was not existent subsequently, which is a necessary condition for any physical effect to occur. The physically existent representation of the reality just ceases to exist in that physical form upon receipt, as it would if the interaction had been with an inanimate entity. One of the physical features of light, as in what is physically existent and can be processed by a sensory system if received, being that it persists in the same (or nearly so) physical form over time.

15 By substituting c for v, ie a specific velocity for a generic one, c was asserted to be: 2AB/(t'(a) - t(a)). Which was wrong, because that time involved duration incurred from subsequent timings, apart from being deemed an elapsed time in both cases anyway, which it is not. Assuming the quantity is doubled, it should have been either twice A to B or B to A, or the sum of A to B and B to A incurred at the same time. So it should have been: c = 2AB/2(t(a) - t(b)). Or simply, as considering either direction is irrelevant, c = AB/(t(a) - t(b)).

16 Which, although correct, is a statement of the obvious. That is, the velocity is a ratio of total distance travelled to the time taken to do so, ie the definition of velocity. Apart from which, what this actually means in the context of physical existence needs to be understood, ie since there is no duration as such, it is a conceptual expression of a spatial quantity. Duration being concerned with differences between physical existences, ie the rate at which turnover occurs. And c was not the speed of observational light, it was just a constant which happened to be defined in terms of an xample of light.

17 A key statement in 1905, section 1, part 1, Definition of Simultaneity is:

"But it is not possible without further assumption to compare, in respect of time, an event at A with an event at B. We have so far defined only an "A time" and a "B time." We have not defined a common "time" for A and B, for the latter cannot be defined at all unless we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A. Let a ray of light start at the "A time" t(a) from A towards B, let it at the "B time" t(b) be reflected at B in the direction of A, and arrive again at A at the "A time" t(a). In accordance with definition the two clocks synchronize if t(b)-t(a)=t'(a)-t(b)."

18 In the context of a proper differentiation between reality and the light based representation thereof, this thinking is, essentially, correct. Recipients of light representing the same physical occurrence, will receive those lights at different times because they are in different spatial locations (ignoring any vanishingly small differences there might be between those lights). Fundamentally, comparing these times and distances will reveal the time at which the occurrence happened.

19 But Einstein did not differentiate reality and the light based representation of it, so there was no observational light. In actuality, his 'local time' must have been the time of receipt of the light based representation of the occurrence, but he deemed it to be the time of occurrence. At the 'local' level this mistake was rationalised with the notion that they were the same if in the "immediate proximity". Which is incorrect, as there must always be a time delay whilst light travels.

20 Beyond the 'immediate proximity' (which could never be defined because it cannot be a correct concept), he effectively asserted, ie by virtue of his mistakes, that the time at which the occurrences happened is a function of light, and particularly its speed, which is obviously incorrect. The time of receipt of the light representation of the occurrence is a function of light speed, not the occurrence. The actual relationship between any physically existent state (ie occurrence) and the light (ie representation thereof) created as it occurs, is a function of their physical attributes and hence the way they interact. But any such actual differences/complexities involved do no impact on this generic argument.

21 The critical point being that the light Einstein referred to was not observational light. He was using an example of light as a conceptual reference constant against which to calibrate duration and distance. In other words, the fact that it was light, was irrelevant, it could have been any constant. His light was just a dissassociated "ray of light", with an entity referred to as an "observer", and the concept of "frames of reference" (later examples used lightening). All of which can leave the reader with the impression that observation had been accounted for.

22 But he only invoked a constant, so the 'observer/frame of reference' is just the reference used for comparison in order to identify difference. It has nothing to do with observation, because there was no observational light. The determining factor being what he did, not what he said he would do. Which means that the second postulate as defined is irrelevant, because he did not deploy it as defined. Therefore all the ensuing attempts, including his own, to reconcile a presumed constancy in light with a rate of change in reality, are pointless, because the issue is non-existent.

23 In sum, Einstein shifted the time differential from the finish of the physical process, where it does occur and relates to the time of receipt of the physically existent representation of existence (eg light), to the start, by deeming it, incorrectly, to be a characteristic of physical existence itself.

Paul

a month later

Dear Wes,

I was surprised to meet an author whose thinking is so deeply rooted in Buddhist philosophy and meditation practice. I agree with many of your intellectual and spiritual positions including those published in VIXRA (i.e. Postmodern Mysticism).

I've studied the relationship between Buddhism and modern physics since more than thirty years. Meanwhile I've found some interesting insights that are closely related to your questions and answers as well.

(1) MIND (in Christian terminology we are often speaking of GOD) is the fundamental basis of the physical universe. It determines how the universe is organized at the most fundamental level. One of these determining conditions is a specific set of boundary conditions, which I am calling the "Principle of Radical Non-Duality". It follows directly Buddhist philosophy. Surprisingly our universe seems empirically (!) to satisfy this Principle.

In my FQXI-paper "Taming of the One" I've sketched this principle.

(2) A Mandala-like structure - being composed of squares and circles - shows how space and time are organized at the most fundamental level. This archetypal structure can be read in such a way, that it generates a sort of Lorentz symmetry that is slightly different from the relativistic one.

(3) The speed of light c is of dual nature like light itself! In other word, according ot the quantum mechanical view of the Wave-Particle-Duality the fundamental constant of c is given twice - in a particle-like way and in a wave-like way. (In Special Relativity only the wave-like face of c has been taken into account.) This "Dual Parametrization of c" corresponds directly with the geometrical structure of the Mandala in (2): The circle represents the wave-like version of c and the square represents the particle-like way of c. As both geometrical blueprints are parametrized in the same way, that is, c = 1, one of these two faces of c (i.e. the particle-like one) is still unknown. I call it the "Hidden Face of c".

May you will find these thoughts somehow interesting...

Kind Regards

Helmut

6 days later

Dear Wesley Wayne Hansen

Your essay is very interesting and unique,only regret is the lack of specific on the conclusions.

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1802

15 days later

Hello Wesley,

Nice to see an approach from consciousness, of course we are all observers of information and empirically real ourselves, so why shouldn't this approach be used.

I wonder where consciousness is? The mind's eye infinite regression always stumps me. Perhaps a termination point is akin to 0 in the Fibonacci sequence (0-dimensionality in my essay).

Anyway - nice to read something so refreshing.

Best wishes,

Antony

Wesley,

If given the time and the wits to evaluate over 120 more entries, I have a month to try. My seemingly whimsical title, "It's good to be the king," is serious about our subject.

Jim

17 days later

Wes,

Really enjoyable and fascinating essay with some important points.I agree that correspondence is central.

I'm also very interested in eastern traditions, meditation, contemplation and the concept of free will. I stayed very empirical with my own essay this time as it was already crammed full of ontology, but did just touch on it in the extended version I linked. I'll be very interested in your comments.

I most certainly agree your conjecture, and that there is an awful lot more to conciousness and the universe than we may perhaps ever know.

Congratulations, thank you, and I hope you make the final cut.

Peter

18 days later

Wes - anyone who talks about consciousness in a physics forum has to be a daring individual. My hat is off to you.

It is true, the next major frontier is understanding emergence, and although we can absolutely be sure that consciousness emerges, how would you react if I told that time emerged from information also?

You can find the latest version of my essay here:

http://fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/Borrill-TimeOne-V1.1a.pdf

(sorry if the fqxi web site splits this url up, I haven't figured out a way to not make it do that).

I would be honored to hear your opinion of it.

Bodhisattva, Paul