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  • Post #11

Valentin,

thank you for such unusual essay.

QM paradoxes had led to Multiverse hypotheses. How does your picture fit this hypotheses? Could only one universe be enough for you?

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    • Post #12

    Charles,

    yes, in my picture all the multiverse is in one single universe: each and every quantum in it IS the same universe, seen from different "point of view", observed in a unique reference frame based on this particular quantum. One may say that each quantum here resembles a drop of water in which the whole universe is reflected in a unique way. The other way of seeing it is that each quantum is the kind of black hole, or wormhole that goes not to some other universe, but to the same (our) single universe, just to some distant point in it (that is how coordinates appear in this picture, by the way).

    This picture is totally defined by the "links" between "drops", i.e. defined by the particular way how one "drop" is "reflected" in other. These "links", as you can imagine, can be quite unstable and observable picture can change abruptly exactly like the picture changes each time we turn the tube of the kaleidoscope.

    If you take in consideration all these event horizons appearing between the "drops" (quanta) and preventing the flow of information, you'll get the picture almost identical to what we have in multiverse - but "embedded" into the single universe.

    Charles, the previous anonymous post was actually mine. Sorry for inconvenience :-)

    Dear Valentin,

    In Penrose's and also my view the Platonic world is not quite separate but in a sense partly overlapping with the other two. But from the very definition Platonic is immaterial. And it is not my idea but just a definition taken by Penrose and his predecessors.

    Regarding the time travel my question is how do you want to send the primitive atom clock back in time? That is interesting but I cannot imagine technical possibility.

    Jacek,

    I agree that by Plato's definition his world is immaterial, but my own view on the mathematics reality is different from his and Penrose. Physical and mathematical laws are on the one hand a reflection of real material tendencies and on the other hand those very tendencies themselves.

    Now, about direct time travel experiment. As you can see according to the essay, time travel is an essential feature of this world. Each quantum is a loop in time. To conduct such an experiment all that one should do is to make such micro quantum feature become macro feature. Natural way is to use BEC that behaves almost like a single macro quantum, i.e. like a macro loop in time. Then you need to create simple clock out of the particles that this particular BEC is made of. If done accurately, this measuring clock will not destroy BEC, but will become some kind of BEC disturbance, embedded in it, entangled with it - so the clock will move back and forth with BEC itself. I agree, this may be tricky, but it is possible, well within our current experimental skills.

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    • Post #16

    Some researches are inclined to recognize the appearance of abnormal correlations or order structures in time-space continuum at low statistics ("macro fluctuations"). Could your theory say something in connection with the possibility of such effects?

      Thank you Ann for such an interesting question.

      The answer is positive due to the obvious symmetry between micro and macro in this theory (the whole universe is one quantum). This fact makes us rethink the very concept of statistics though - and this is the one really exciting field to research on. Probabilities become relative. Macro fluctuations will occur despite their low probability (or even low statistics) calculated in a standard way "from the bottom up".

      I mean that some even almost improbable events here may still occur, like well known example of mathematical dot (size=0) dropped onto the surface. Probability of hitting any preselected dot on the surface is precisely zero, still the event occurs each time we try it.

      Valentin,

      One of the most fascinating essays I've seen in any of the FQXi contests.

      There is too much to comment on at once so I will ask three questions:

      1. You begin by implying that observable local effects of gravity can be nullified. The only real observable local effect of gravity (as distinguished from acceleration) is the tidal force. How do you nullify this?

      2. You say your theory explains exactly why elementary particles of the same type are absolutely identical. But why in a theory of 'one particle' executing time loops is there more than one type of particle?

      3. Is the time travel experiment you discuss with Jacek a condition of the BEC that you simply *interpret* as time travel, or do you propose that some event should occur a measurable time before it is triggered in the lab (in the 'future')?

      Once again, a fascinating essay.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Thank you, Edwin for your interest in my essay,

        1. Actually I postulate possible nullifying of observable effects not of the gravity only, but of all objective changes, i.e. all "natural forces", etc. It is a pretty bold (crazy enough?) statement, of course. The very possibility of that is based on this vague concept of "subject" , that can actually be any part of the universe, even be identical to the universe at the extreme. In such an absolute case it is easy to see that if "you" change the subject to reverse the changes ("back in time" ) it becomes possible. More practical particular cases are much more difficult to imagine, of course.

        In case of gravity I was appealing more to Einstein's example of "reversing", i.e. nullifying of the local acceleration (local "gravity force"). Tidal gravity forces, of course could not be nullified this way, because they are of the "second order of locality", pardon my French. Though more deep thoughts on that particular case are definitely needed, may be this is exactly where back in time changes have to be applied.

        2. This one is a kind of question that goes very, very deep. You see, the universal change caused by time (self-interaction) is not just some abstract change. First of all it is a change that we are used to term as "ordering" of events; next come some other, more particular changes. The whole process resembles the process of living cell differentiation, if you know what I mean. New physical interactions ("forces") appear with the development, differentiation of the "cell"-universe. There is more on that in my Philica.com article (see the link in References, check the Cached link).

        3. No, I meant the very real time travel, influence on events through time. Any such experiment will cause measurable changes not only to the clock that we send back in time, but to the whole world that will be obviously changed by this experiment. Such changes, according to all that was said in the essay, would precisely fit the "energy" interpretation, so familiar to every one of us. I mean that such an experiment will release a certain amount of energy (but may be less that we wasted on it to conduct).

        Also Edwin,

        if you are the author of this book on consciousness (sorry, did not read it yet), you may be interested in the concept of consciousness as a loop (thought-memory-thought) in subjective space-time developed in my other article (unfortunately they are currently experiencing problems with LaTex engine, I apologize for them):

        http://www.philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=226

        The theory and equations there actually follow closely the "Times Rest in Spaces" ideology.

        As you know, founding fathers of modern physics always thought that the future theory would include consciousness. So here we have one more point to test if this theory is crazy enough.

        Valentin,

        Thanks for your answers. I'm glad you agree gravitational tidal forces cannot be nullified, and that you propose a real test of time travel not a simple labeling of a BEC state. I did not quite understand your answer about the particle types but I'll try to read the links you provide.

        I have written about consciousness and have an FQXi essay, Fundamental Physics of Consciousness that you may find interesting. My other FQXi essays expand on the non-consciousness aspects of the theory. You may also find Marcel LeBel's essay on logic and time interesting. Whereas I fully agree that the nature of the universe is self-interacting, I tend posit gravity as the root substance from which all (self-)evolves. I plan to submit an essay that I hope you will find interesting.

        Good luck in the contest,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Edwin,

        thank you for interesting links; I see now that we are seeking for answers to the same questions.

        At least I understand why you consider gravity on the one side and consciousness on the other as most fundamental interactions. They both share true universality, but what would add to this that gravity in on the objective side and consciousness - on the subjective side. Still subjective forces (subjective space-time interaction) are the powerful ones, as in the case of humanity, for example.

        As for different types of particles, they differ obviously because of their involvement into different interactions (other than time interaction). So to get to these types we need to get some theoretical way of description of the time self-interaction as generating "force" of different physical features: space-time dimensions, numbers and fields (local dynamic symmetries). In the references to my essay you may find the first theoretical mechanism used for that: self-acting symmetry (operators) in finite groups representation. Later I developed two other, more powerful approaches: 1. new abstract numbers calculus (Y-numbers) which include unary algebraic operations considered as self-acting numbers; 2. new constructed formal logical recursive language with grammar rules serving the role of mathematical operations.

        All three ways lead us to the fractal world with multiple dimensions generated one by one with time flow; each group of dimensions interpreted differently as physical gauge fields other than gravity or time interaction.

        Actually if your are interested in further discussion allow me to email you more info and references to all that.

        Valentin,

        I've looked at one link you posted, and will look at others you send. (My email is in my essay). We're certainly concerned with the same issues. As you know it's very difficult to treat complex things in 10 pages, so the essay you read is just the tip of the iceberg. In one sense of the word, gravity must be somehow 'aware of itself' to interact with itself, which it does. Therefore there is a sort of primordial 'subjectivity' built into the field. Several recent papers have focused on the fact that ALL energy has mass and hence all energy gravitates, thus gravity interacts with (hence is "aware of") all energy, even kinetic energy. In other words everything. Of course the level of awareness is so primitive it barely deserves the term, nevertheless I feel it sufficient to serve as the seed for the "Participatory Universe" that Wheeler proposed. [The comments on my essay blog develop related points.]

        I believe this is compatible with your "pure monistic, materialistic foundation, [taking] the subject as a materialistic "point of view," i.e. as a reference frame, a system of material objects chosen to physically represent, to detect and to observe any other object."

        As for your "elementary subjective time loop", I'm not sure I understand it, but at first reading it sounds more like the logic operation that I associate with 'intelligence', which is "consciousness plus logic" (as defined in my essay and elsewhere.)

        Best,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

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        • Post #24

        Valentin

        'Time travel' is not possible, because of what the concept of time physically relates to. And that is not the timing device, or the timing system itself. In physical existence, difference occurs. Apart from what it is and why, and irrespective of what is involved, any such occurrence happens at a rate. Timing is the system which calibrates this rate of alteration. There is no physical way of reversing this. It occurs, and indeed has occurred by the time we are aware of it. Which means that the physically existent state being considered has ceased to exist, as it has been superseded by another.

        Paul

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        • Post #25

        Consciousness, or more generally the entire subsequent processing by sensory system/brain of physical input received, can have no effect on the physical circumstance. Because:

        1 The physical circumstance occurred previously, so physical effect is impossible as the existent sequence order precludes that.

        2 The physical interaction does not involve the existential sequence anyway, but an existent representation thereof. So apart from the fact that what is being considered has already existed and now ceased to be in existence, what interaction there is, is not with that. Physically, all that happens is that the existent representation ceases to exist in the form received. This applies whatever the circumstance of the interaction, ie whether for example it included a brick or an eye.

        3 It is not a physical process, but involves the conversion of a physical input to a perception thereof.

        4 The resulting perception can have no physical effect on the future, because the future does not physically exist, and is therefore not available to be so affected.

        Paul

          Edwin,

          I have sent you an email with some discussion, but it looks like it has been lost... Please, check your Junk Mail folder! I will send it again right now.

          Paul,

          I don't think that my essay is anything about consciousness, so this is not a place to discuss it. Also your post look like a bunch of statements, not questions to discuss.

          Anyway I decided to say at least something on these statements of yours :

          1. Consciousness subjective process is based on information written on the objective physical carrier (brains, circuits, etc.), so nothing occurs previously to anything. Just physical interaction, nothing more, objectively speaking.

          2. See above.

          3. There is no "conversion" of physical input to perception; according to my approach perception is physical process taken from a particular "subjective" point of view, i.e. in subjective reference frame.

          4. Again, in my approach past and future both physically exist in the present, only their existence is different than the existence of the present itself. Past physical existence is represented by forms of space and energy, future physical existence is a little more complicated and is represented by so-called "key", "triggering" states of the matter (this is far far away from the matter of the essay itself)

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          • Post #28

          Valentin

          I did not say your essay was about consciousness. I just picked up an indication that it was considered that the subsequent processing of physical input received by the sensory systems/brain had some effect on the physical circumstance. Which it does not, it determines the perception thereof, which is not physics. And listed a number of reasons why this must be so, what you refer to as a "bunch of statements".

          Re 1, it does not matter what consciousness is for physics.

          Re 3 "There is no "conversion" of physical input to perception".

          So what is seeing, feeling, hearing, etc, then?? A brick receives light (which is physically existent), so does your mouth. But if your eye receives it then it can be processed and the possessor thereof become aware of the receipt, since it is the front end of an evolved system which can convert it to a perception. The physics ends at the interaction of receipt. Though, obviously, it is important to know how the sensory systems/brain works so that from the perception we can extrapolate (after eradicating individualism as well) what was physically received. Subjective references are irrelevant. Though, by definition, any statement (eg measurement) is a comparison to identify difference, which necessitates a reference. So if the reference is an observer, for example, then the key point is relative spatial position, because light travels from the occurrence, not what the observer thinks, etc. Since, as I said, one of the proofs that the subsequent processing has no effect on the physical circumstance, is the simple fact that that circumstance has already occurred. And in this reality, a subsequent physical effect cannot have a physical effect on a physical circumstance which occurred previously.

          Re 4 "Again, in my approach past and future both physically exist in the present"

          Only the present is existent. The past is a present that has ceased to exist. The future is non-existent, it is a present which will subsequently occur as a function of the previous present. You cannot have "different" forms of existence. Either something is physically existent, or it is not. What does occur, but this is not what you are saying, is that a physically existent representation of something which was existent can persist in existence. It is called light. And we can receive light that is up to billions of years old.

          Paul

          25 days later

          Valentin,

          Dense but a good read. Do you see your findings also reinforcing/complementing Bohm/Hiley's concept/notion of an 'Undivided Universe'?

          Thank you sir and take care!

            Valentin,

            My essay is finally posted here . I hope you will read it and comment.

            Best Regards,

            Edwin Eugene Klingman