Hi Lawrence,

I do not think that we have a real understanding of "possibility" in physics. We treat possibility as a metaphysical condition (e.g. in arguments against fatalism), but when we then try to describe what is "possible" we fall back on epistemology - what is possible given these data, etc. "These data" always refer to local observations of circumscribed systems recorded in memories using classical information.

Our notion of "causality" is similarly local and classical, in the sense that our representations of "cause" and "effect" are written in classical memories, regardless of the notation used. We write down, for example, a "prepared" quantum state that involves some degrees of freedom and not others. Where did this circumscription come from? From local observations.

If we took non-locality seriously, every "event" would be a quantum state of the entire universe, none of which (for an instantaneous event) is observable from our (or any) perspective. We seem systematically unable to think of events this way, or to envision the universe evolving as a whole. In particular, we do not seem able to envision our own brains/minds/awareness evolving not because of something previous, but as part of what is happening now. This is, however, the situation we are in. We are not observing the universe from the outside, however convenient this may be as an methodological or mathematical assumption.

Hence I would like to distinguish between "the universe is (quantum) computing its next state" and "the universe is a (quantum) computer." If the universe is a quantum computer, the data structure on which it acts is its own, complete state. But this is not what we intuitively mean by "computing" - we intuitively think of computing as acting on a data structure that is external to the process of computation. A Turing machine, for example, makes intuitive sense as doing computation because the head is distinguished from the tape and is seen as acting upon it. In the case of the universe, we do not have this luxury; it is not a case of some unchanging parts acting on others that are changed.

Cheers,

Chris

Ralph,

Thanks for the positive word. The incompleteness extends potentially to various levels, including the dichotomy between the quantum and classical world. Complex structures like organisms impose constraints on the micro-causal systems that compose it. How this occurs is not well known. It is the possible that in addition there is a top-down element to this. The physics of molecules or atoms do not predict biological systems, but biological systems as emergent structures impose constraints on how molecules behave.

The physical universe doubtless has a computational aspect to it. It is less clear that this defines all of physics. The discrete paradigm of reality clearly has some problems or limits. In particular the discrete model of spacetime, such as offered by LQG, implies there are violations of Lorentz symmetry. Recent distant observations of GRBs have found no dispersion predicted by this. Symmetry breaking implies mass or some dispersion due to longitudinal modes. Much of physics can also be expressed according to a path integral which is derived using variational methods. The initial and final state of the system is defined and the intervening states of the system are derived without any causal state by state evolution perspective.

A path integral has some classical path, which is usually defined by the extremal path for the largest expected outcome. This is one motivation for the einselection paradigm for assigning states as the stable classical configuration for a system. The odd part of this is that quantum mechanics is noncontextual by the Kochen-Specker theorem. However, the path integral implies some sort of classical "shadow" to QM. Classical or macroscopic physics is contextual, and this seems to imply there is a theorem (the KS theorem etc) which in the broader context of physics is undecidable. This would be the case if one considers classical physics as having some reality, even if in a coarse grained perspective.

I should also be mentioned that chaos theory does not involve halting algorithms. They are recursively enumerable; they do not halt and carry on to an arbitrary level of floating point precision. So certain disciplines of physics already embody theory that involves nonhalting algorithms. Halting algorithms are recursive, and their complements are recursive. Recursively enumerable algorithms have complements which are not decidable. Recursive algorithms are BLOOPs to use Hofstaeder's term and their duals are BLOOPs. Recursively enumerable algorithms are FLOOPs (free loops), but their duals are GLOOPs (Godel loops).

I wrote an essay for the FQXi contest, which at last check is #4 out of 182, which demonstrates how a causal (state to state with time) perspective of physics will have some level of undecidability. This has some relationship to Hume's naturalist fallacy and to Wallace's refutation of Taylor's fatalism. Such a perspective motivates the suggestion that associativity of operators may be the axiom that can be toggled on or off.

Trying to understand how nonassociative mathematics of operators fits into physics is really the hard part. I think that quantum mechanics is purely complex, or C. Of course classical mechanics is R. Gauge theory can be written according to quaternions H. A lot of gauge theory is done though in standard vector form without quaternions. It is interesting though that Maxwell formulated electromagnetism, the first gauge field theory, in quaternions. Field operators in a second quantization act on a Fock space basis to give quantum amplitudes. So we have a relationship that might be heuristically written as π:H --- > C. The question is then whether there is some sort of higher level structure π:O --- > H.

Spacetime I think offers a clue. A black hole horizon has some quantum uncertainty on a scale near the string or Planck length. There will then be an associative uncertainty with three quantum fields, where one of those fields is identified near the horizon. The standard approach to QFT is to assign a harmonic oscillator at every point in space, impose equal time commutators on that spatial surface with the Wightman criterion for commutation, and work from there. Yet that spatial surface on a small scale will have some noncommutative structure and this will lead to a host of uncertainties in assigning QFT operators. If there are event horizons this should lead to an associative uncertainty.

The above "maps" between C, H and O, where a similar map π:C --- > R would be the relationship between quantum mechanics and classical mechanics, are really just forms of the Hopf fibration. The relationship between quantum and classical mechanics is of course a difficult subject in its own right. With each of these "ladders" on the Hopf fibration there is some increased uncertainty. Quantum mechanics saved physics from the UV divergence that classical mechanics predicted with the hydrogen atom. Similarly this may protect physics from divergences with black holes, such as the singularity and maybe with the current big problem of firewalls.

There may be a general level of undecidability in physics which tells us that an algorithmic perspective of physics will not be able to define all of physics. The "bit" or qubit perspective of physics is important, but it may not embody all of what might be called physical truth.

I see that you have an essay. I just got my voting code retransmitted to me. The computer I had it on suffered a big virus meltdown and I lost that for a couple of weeks. I will get to voting this week as time permits.

Lawrence B. Crowell

The term possibility is not quantified very well for physics. I read a paper quite some years ago which stated possibility and plausibility were "unknown unknows" in a Bayesian sense. It is a probability that is not computable because there is no Bayesian prior estimate. The first part of my essay is metaphysics meant to motivate the need to "toggle" some physical axiom between the "on and off" condition.

Nonlocality of field theory is related to topological quantum field theory (TQFT) A TQFT is a quantum field theory up to homotopy. Physically this means that geometric data is removed and real degrees of freedom are determined by topology. This clearly means the TQFT within some homotopy (or topology) is a class of fields up to the diffeomorphism of space (or spactime). This means that local data concerning geometry is removed by taking a quotient with the space of solutions. In doing this we still want to have some concept of locality, which is usually associated with geometric information. Locality is contained in how the manifold is partitioned into pieces, where locality is defined by how those pieces are joined together. In spacetime this can include a space plus time perspective, where spacetime is defined by thin sections with a local time increment. These pieces have then cobordism defined by spatial surfaces.

A topological quantum field theory may be considered to be any data to every geometric entity from a zero-dimensional point up to an n-dimensional cobordism. The n-functor

Z:bord^m(n) --- > A_n

Where A_n is an algebra of dimension n and the bord^m(n) holds for 0

Hello Lawrence

Richard Feynman in his Nobel Acceptance Speech (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1965/feynman-lecture.html)

said: "It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the relationship. And example of this is the Schrodinger equation and the Heisenberg formulation of quantum mechanics. I don't know why that is - it remains a mystery, but it was something I learned from experience. There is always another way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what the reason for this is. I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature."

I too believe in the simplicity of nature, and I am glad that Richard Feynman, a Nobel-winning famous physicist, also believe in the same thing I do, but I had come to my belief long before I knew about that particular statement.

The belief that "Nature is simple" is however being expressed differently in my essay "Analogical Engine" linked to http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1865 .

Specifically though, I said "Planck constant is the Mother of All Dualities" and I put it schematically as: wave-particle ~ quantum-classical ~ gene-protein ~ analogy- reasoning ~ linear-nonlinear ~ connected-notconnected ~ computable-notcomputable ~ mind-body ~ Bit-It ~ variation-selection ~ freedom-determinism ... and so on.

Taken two at a time, it can be read as "what quantum is to classical" is similar to (~) "what wave is to particle." You can choose any two from among the multitudes that can be found in our discourses.

I could have put Schrodinger wave ontology-Heisenberg particle ontology duality in the list had it comes to my mind!

Since "Nature is Analogical", we are free to probe nature in so many different ways. And you have touched some corners of it.

Regards

Than Tin

    • [deleted]

    Than,

    Nature has an analogical quality to it, or what I see as recherché --- as with Bach's "Musical Offering." Certainly one example is how isospin symmetry is applied to the nuclear physics of protons and neutrons in the MeV range and the same symmetry appears in the theory of weak interactions. I base my argument for the need to toggle on or off physical axioms by appealing to a formal incompleteness of any causal model. Godel's theorem is a recursive aspect of mathematics where a predicate acts upon its own Godel number as the object.

    It is taking me a bit of time to get to many of the essays here. Other pressing concerns mount as well. I will try to get to your essay in the near future. I got an email that the contest deadline has been extended a week. That may allow for a bit more time to get to more of the essays.

    Cheers LC

    Dear Lawrence,

    I am almost sure that I rated your essay at an earlier time. For any reason my vote was not recorded or lost when the system was interrupted. So I reproduced the vote with a bonus due to the high level of your replies.

    Good luck,

    Michel

      Michel,

      Thanks. I have been in the process of moving, so my ability to engage FQXi has dropped seriously. I also lost my voting code for a while after the machine I had it on was virus attacked. I got the code back the other day.

      I think there are underlying relationships between F4 as the group for the KS theorem in 4-d and G2 as the automorphism of E8. F4 is a centralizer in E8, which means it is a "constant of the motion" with respect to G2. I have long thought that general relativity and quantum mechanics share some common basis along these lines.

      Cheers LC

      Dear Lawrence,

      One single principle leads the Universe.

      Every thing, every object, every phenomenon

      is under the influence of this principle.

      Nothing can exist if it is not born in the form of opposites.

      I simply invite you to discover this in a few words,

      but the main part is coming soon.

      Thank you, and good luck!

      I rated your essay accordingly to my appreciation.

      Please visit My essay.

        Hi Lawrence,

        Congratulations on a fine essay! But I wonder whether the arguments you advance are against a straw man... pertinent to an abstract and continuous theory of reality, rather than what may actually be a discrete and non-continuous material cosmos. You wrote:

        > Physical systems in some funny sense have a premonition about how to evolve.... There is no information transfer in this process, but in a nonlocal manner a quantum particle "knows" how to evolve by sampling all possible paths

        To apply the Principle of Least Action you need to specify the end state as well as the starting state. It is therefore, more a view "looking back" than "looking forward". In fact, you can take the viewpoint of essayist Don Limuti, and say that particles do not have to have a continuous trajectory, and only have to appear intermittently. With this sort of interpretation, computation remains feasible.

        > Godel's second theorem indicates that any consistent theory is unable to prove its consistency.

        The precondition to Godel's theorem was that the theory be able to formulate *all* of arithmetic, not just finite models of arithmetic. Actual computers have finite word size and memory size, and might be better modeled by Primitive recursive arithmetic, which is provably consistent in Peano arithmetic. So the application of Godel's theorem is valid only for abstract models of computation, not actual discrete computational models of the cosmos.

        > Taylor's argument may be seen as follows...

        As you note, Taylor's argument depends on the Law of the Excluded Middle. Joseph Brenner (who is also an essayist here) has previously written a paper entitled "The philosophical logic of Stéphane Lupasco (1900-1988)" that describes Lupasco's alternate "Logic of the Included Middle" and argues that it better applies to reality. With a different logic I think you could reach a different conclusion about computability.

        > Quantum gravity is then a quaternion theory, or a system of quaternions in the octonions. There is then a hierarchy R -> C -> H -> O, where classical mechanics is real valued, quantum mechanics complex valued, and underneath are quaternion and octonion valued fields and vacuum structures.

        Nice idea. You might appreciate my advocacy of Geometric Algebra for the formulation of a computable cosmos in Software Cosmos, where I take up the simulation paradigm and construct a digital model.

        > The digital model of the universe or "It From Bit" is not decidable. A model of the physical universe encoded by algorithmic means will not compute reality.

        I am most curious whether you think this limitation applies to my picture of a discrete computational model for the cosmos.

        Hugh

          Hugh,

          Your comments are interesting and thought provoking. I don't think that nature is strictly continuous or discrete. I think there is some sort of dualism between the two descriptions of reality. I don't think either description is complete.

          I agree that Godel's theorem involves infinite systems. The use of the Cantor diagonalization implies an infinite set. The use of modal logic and the appeal to Godel's theorem is somewhat qualitative I will admit. I think to do a full formal analysis of this would be an exhausting piece of work. However, the use of "possibility," which at best can be interpreted as probabilities with a weak or no Bayesian priors (an unknown unknown) is potentially itself "infinite," or so large that from a physicist perspective we can consider it infinite. Any algorithmic description of the universe must appeal to primitive recursive functions. The analyst in this view is performing a sort of "cut off," where the "possibility" extends only to some range of estimated probabilities. This may not necessarily cover all of reality or all possible cases. David Hume made a bit of a point about this. Causality can't be reduced to logic. I make a point of a connection between Hume's observation and Godel.

          The argument concerning the extension of quantum fields from a quaternion basis to octonions is also qualitative. There is no procedure for finding undecidable propositions; the existence of such a putative procedure is itself undecidable. Godel did manage to derive his proof in reference to Diophantine equations, which amounts to deriving a "special case." Again trying to find how the extension from H to O is a matter of Godelian incompleteness would be a huge undertaking. So my approach is to appeal to a physical argument rather than formal mathematics. After all, while I have learned a fair amount of advanced mathematics I am still primarily a physicist .

          I will try to look at your essay today or in the next few days. From your description it does appear interesting. My time has been terribly constrained the last couple of months. I have to keep in mind that voting ends in about a week.

          Thanks for the over all positive assessment.

          Cheers LC

          Amazigh,

          One interesting duality principle is with Yangians. This is a duality with fields in a braid description that has connections to twistors.

          I will try to get to your paper in the near future. My time is pretty limited right now. I have not had much time to engage this contest very much.

          Cheers LC

          Dear Lawrence,

          I guess if you have a list of more than 300 essays to choose from it is inevitable you miss out on some of the best. Yours was indeed very well written and argued even though my position is opposite to yours but I was able to follow your thinking especially areas where not too much math is involved. Very nice.

          One of the unprovable/ undecidable proposition in mathematics and theoretical physics is whether the fundamental unit of geometry is a zero dimensional or extended object. When I say unprovable I mean using mathematical theorems. However from logic and reductio ad absurdum type arguments a sort of philosophical proof can be found. This is what I have attempted to do.

          Following additional insights gained from interacting with FQXi community members, I improved my essay and wrote a judgement in the case of Atomistic Enterprises Inc. vs. Plato & Ors delivered on Jul. 28, 2013 @ 11:39 GMT. You may enjoy it.

          All the best,

          Akinbo

            Dear Akinbo,

            I will try to read your essay this evening. I am in the process of moving right now, which is taxing me in a number of way --- in particular the growing ache in my back.

            Cheers LC

            Dear All

            Let me go one more round with Richard Feynman.

            In the Character of Physical Law, he talked about the two-slit experiment like this "I will summarize, then, by saying that electrons arrive in lumps, like particles, but the probability of arrival of these lumps is determined as the intensity of waves would be. It is this sense that the electron behaves sometimes like a particle and sometimes like a wave. It behaves in two different ways at the same time.

            Further on, he advises the readers "Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it. 'But how can it be like that?' because you will get 'down the drain', into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."

            Did he says anything about Wheeler's "It from Bit" other than what he said above?

            Than Tin

              Lawrence - Thank you for your reply and pointers to David Foster Wallace and Asselmeyer-Maluga on these issues.

              I would be honored by your review of my paper. Please make sure your download the latest version (V1.1a) from the comments section.

              Thank you.

              Kind regards, Paul

              Paul,

              I am rather intrigued by your paper. I will confess that I think this perspective on time may apply to quantum gravity. I will have to read your paper again to firm up my understanding. The two competing ideas are string theory and loop quantum gravity. In LQG gravitation is background independent. However, this is based ultimately on a classical formalism of general relativity where time does not exist. String theory on the other hand has time, but it is not background independent. It also works best in a holographic perspective where one dimension is reduced near an event horizon. The string/M-theory approach is also best looked at in a dual gauge approach with Yangians, which has some overlap with braid constructions in LQG. So there may be some duality here that has some bearing on your idea about time and entanglement.

              Cheers LC

              Wilhelmus,

              I got my voting code back a week ago. I pulled up your essay this morning and started to read it. I will though have to score it later today. I am about to close down and get back to work.

              Cheers LC

              Hi Than,

              I guess I am not sure why you posted this. Feynman was right in what he said and was a critic of the hidden variable people who were trying to build up quantum physics from classical like structures. That is not something I am trying to advance.

              LC

              Hi LC,

              We have been in a few contests together. Most the time your entries give me a headache. Of course this is my fault. Your current essay also gives me a headache, But I like it. The conclusion is rational and to my liking. Also your comment to the effect that the informational standpoint may not be correct, but it could be very useful, I find very insightful.

              No need to visit my entry. It will just drive you crazy :)

              Your score needs a boost!

              Don L.