Vladimir,

I forgot to comment on the following your point:

"using classes seems an artificial top-down coarse approach to describe what in the end would be the most delicate operations of nature at the sub-atomic level."

As you may know, it is physics that approached nature in a "top-down coarse approach" and eventually met with the substantial difficulties in QM, where one has to deal with the "bottom" side of reality.

The ETS struct is a suggested bottom-up approach to the representation of "reality". However, what gradually became clear to me--and independently, to some extent, to some physicists--is that the basis of such approach inevitably leads outside the conventional spatial framework.

Physicists are not yet comfortable to think and to talk in terms of new forms of data representation, but this will come once you started on the path leading outside the spatial forms of data representation.

The shameless game of pulling down the entries with the higher scores continues unabated ;-) :

3, 1, 10, 2, 6, 5, 5, 1, 6, 2, 3, 8, 3

Lev

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

Paul

Lev,

Great to see you back, and with a nicely developed thesis which I think has great value and potential. It's particularly pleasing to see someone actually tacking 'measurement' directly and in a different, non numeric way. I'd really like to hear your views on my suggested division line (proposed by Dirac) between real physical nature and that of numerism.

I liked your; "let us recall that the concept of measurement, which goes to the roots of our civilization--lies at the very foundation of physics." And again, I've also tackled measurement as a real interaction, trying to define 'detection' as a separate prior interaction and would welcome your views.

I end up offering a 'real' resolution of the EPR paradox so also saw analogies with your last figure. There is 'hidden information' which i have actually found researching Aspects discarded 'anomalous' data!

I really enjoyed the read and found much 'hidden likeness', so it would seem churlish to even try to offer any criticism. Excellent job, and fingers crossed for a top finish this year.

Peter

    Dear Lev,

    Your essay strikes at the root of the foundation of today's physics. You say and I agree, "...in the physics of the last century, the most basic conceptual foundations of today's physics are undoubtedly of spatial origin".

    In your ETS representation,

    - is a point a geometric fiction or a physically real object with extension, (monad)?

    - can a line have length with zero breadth?

    - can a surface having length and breadth but with a zero thickness still exist physically?

    - can abstract objects, existing only in the Platonic realm form a part of a physically real object in this physical realm? (Noting that by Euclid's definitions, the extremities of physically real bodies are surfaces, and if lines physically exist, their extremities are points).

    You can check out Euclid's definitions of the properties of space, here

    [link:farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid/Elements.pdf/] and [link:aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/

    I have a paper submitted in the contest based on a 'foundation of a spatial origin', titled On the road not taken. You may check it out and see how it fits with ETS theory.

    Regards,

    Akinbo.

      Dear Akinbo:

      Thanks for your interest!

      -----------------------------------------

      "In your ETS representation,

      - is a point a geometric fiction or a physically real object with extension, (monad)?

      - can a line have length with zero breadth?

      - can a surface having length and breadth but with a zero thickness still exist physically?

      - can abstract objects, existing only in the Platonic realm form a part of a physically real object in this physical realm? (Noting that by Euclid's definitions, the extremities of physically real bodies are surfaces, and if lines physically exist, their extremities are points)."

      -------------------------------------------

      Please note that ETS says nothing about "Euclid's definitions" As to your last question, please see the concept of instantiation in the essay.

      Best wishes, Lev

      The hyperlinks didnt come out as expected. Accessible links to Euclid's definitions can be found at

      http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/

      http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid/Elements.pdf

        Lev

        Thank you for the clarifications. I have looked again at the diagram E1 in section iv and indeed a temporal sequential struct explanation is different than the physical one, and clearer inasfar as the cause-effect chain is concerned. I think I am beginning to see where you are heading. Now if everything in the Universe is connected as a lattice or network at the vacuum level and in matter and energy, such structs become a natural outcome...

        Sorry I have a one-track mind - I was thinking of my Beautiful Universe theory. I am too old to be diverted from the task of developing this model - but I wish you luck with your interesting work.

        Vladimir

        Thanks Vladimir for your interest and your *effort*!

        Unfortunately or fortunately it is mainly not for us but for young people to push the frontiers. But today, *unfortunately* for our times, for some historical reasons, it is the older man that have to "pick up the fallen banner and carry it into the battle". ;-))

        My best wishes to you!

        Peter,

        Thanks! Good to hear from you!

        I'll get back to you in your essay forum.

        Cheers, Lev

        Dear Lev,

        I have reread your essay. ETS has a lot of promise but there is still a lot of work to be done. For example, 'spatial' and 'space' appears 42 times but no where do we know whether the resulting geometry will be Euclidean or a modified form. How I wish you could harmonize your struct with the 'monad' of Leibniz & the Pythagoreans. Then, things will be simpler instead of learning a whole new theory all over. But as I said your theory is quite fundamental.

        Good luck in the contest.

        Akinbo

        *You can check a simple, translated Leibniz monadology referenced in my paper, especially his first 8 paragraphs. Then for space, Check Sir Heath's book on Euclid's geometry, since Geometry is the science of the nature of space.

        Dear Akinbo,

        I intentionally avoided the issue of the nature of space, since if the latter is secondary to the informational representation, we have to proceed with a *very great* caution.

        As to the Leibniz's monads or Whitehead's "actual occasions", I feel that those may only confuse the reader.

        My best wishes, Lev

        Lev

        "Of course, we don't know what "awareness" means scientifically"

        Yes we do. You are falling into the same trap as Edwin and many others, by not first differentiating the knowable from the not-knowable. We can only know (be aware) of what is manifest to us (hypothesis being in effect virtual sensing). In other words , physical existence is that form of existence which is all that is potentially knowable to us. Whether we can attain knowledge of all that is doubtful, but another issue, the point is that the potential was there. Whether there is an alternative is irrelevant, because we cannot know it. And knowing it, ie being aware of it, involves the receipt of physical input (supplemented by the hypothesising of input which could have been received had some identifiable physical issue not prevented that). The subsequent processing of this input received is irrelevant, as that is not physics. The utilisation of representational devices to express this knowledge is another matter.

        Paul

        Lev,

        Very interesting and definitely in sync w/ my entry in many ways. Forgive me if I'm completely misunderstanding, but would you agree that your proposal is something of an evolution/extension of qualitative analysis ushered in by chaos phase-space mapping?

          John,

          My proposal is more transparent than you described it. I propose to replace the ubiquitous numeric form of data representation by the new structural one. Moreover, the nature of this structural, or informational, form of representation (see Fig. E1 in the essay) strongly suggests that it is of non-spatial origin and should be responsible for generating the corresponding spatial representations, or spatial 'reality'.

          Hello, dear Lev!

          Excellent essay, great ideas. I agree completely, «we need to look for fundamentally new formal tools not offered by the present mathematics.» Category "structure" (in Russian, "structure"), "structural memory" to the heart of the new physics. But you must also update the category of "space" and "time", link them to the "matter" and its unconditional states and thus to "seize" the structure of space, understand the nature of time. Good luck in the contest! With respect, Vladimir

            Thank you very much Vladimir! I'll get back to you in your essay forum.

            Moi nailuchshie pozgelaniya, Lev

            • [deleted]

            • Post #93

            The roller coaster update:

            3, 1, 10, 2, 6, 5, 5, 1, 6, 2, 3, 8, 3, 1, 7, 9

            Lev,

            The "desire to see something 'mental'...emerge as the principal element in the structure of the Universe" is as old as the theistic religions. See my paper to see how Bishop Berkeley hoped to accomplish just that as he placed physics on the path of merely describing the contents of the observer's consciousness, as if no physical Cosmos existed. That path led to Relativity and QM. The Cosmos was replaced by the observer's information.

            You ask, "Which new non-spatial form(s) of 'data' presentation will reveal the recently invisible and allow us to understand adequately the formative processes in Nature?". We already have it, it is called "natural philosophy". It is the use of our full intellectual capabilities to reach beyond the "information" of your conscious experience and create theories about what the Cosmos is made of, what causes all its processes, and how it evolves its complex structures including ourselves.

            Your ETS formalism may prove to be a useful tool of philosophy. It will still, like mathematics, require human philosophical intelligence to abstract from reality and produce the symbolic representation, and then again to apply the representation to any particular real situation.

            Henry

            Dear Henry,

            Thanks for dropping in to my essay forum!

            1. I don't think that the "desire to see something 'mental'...emerge as the principal element in the structure of the Universe" "led to Relativity and QM." The "mental' is not really the "principal element' in their structure.

            2. "You ask, "Which new non-spatial form(s) of 'data' presentation will reveal the recently invisible and allow us to understand adequately the formative processes in Nature?". We already have it, it is called "natural philosophy".

            I'm afraid, you are confusing "natural philosophy" with science: they are complementary but not identical.

            3. "Your ETS formalism may prove to be a useful tool of philosophy. It will still, like mathematics, require human philosophical intelligence to abstract from reality and produce the symbolic representation, and then again to apply the representation to any particular real situation."

            I certainly hope that ETS "may prove to be a useful tool of philosophy", but philosophy is not its main orientation. Also, the whole idea of ETS is to try to move away from "requiring human philosophical intelligence to abstract from reality and produce the symbolic representation".

            Best wishes, Lev