Essay Abstract

The essay is a kind of thought experiment to discern what the universe's smallest element must be and how it might be possible to build the universe from it and argues why it is spatial finite and probably temporal finite. The discussion also touches that one can't split the physical universe from the information structure, thats what the universe is.

Author Bio

The Author started studying mathematics and physics but lost focus along the way and ended up developing various software. However - never lost interest in theoretical physics and always trying to combine knowledge from different domains. Which this time resulted in how to build a universe from its bits.

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Dear Sir,

How do you define information density? Density is a relative word - you can describe it only with relation to something else having similar properties. With what you are trying to compare information and what is the yardstick of such comparison?

How do you define "a certain blob of information, small like a particle or huge like a universe"? Information is specific data reporting the state of something based on observation (measurements), organized and summarized for a purpose within a context that gives it meaning and relevance and can lead to either an increase in understanding or decrease in uncertainty. Information is not tied to one's specific knowledge of how particles are created and their early interactions, just like the concepts signifying objects are not known to all. But it should be tied to universal and widely accessible properties. Then how can it be "small like a particle or huge like a universe"? And since it is the perceived result of measurement or observation, how can the "universe consists of information bits with a nonzero chance of interacting" possible? Then you contradict yourself when immediately afterwards you say: "Every bit would have an infinite number of other bits trying to interact with it as often and fast as possible."

You rule out a spatially infinite universe because "the sum of it would be pretty dull"?

Why should we avoid infinities as a rule of thumb? Can we ever do that?

Incidentally there is a lot of confusion about infinity as a number. Number is a property of all substances by which we differentiate between similars. If there are no other similars, then it is one. If there are similars, then it is many. Depending the times of perception of similars, many can be 2. 3. ....n. Zero is the spatio-temporal absence of something that exists elsewhere. Infinity is like one - without similars - with one difference. While the dimensions (the perception of difference between the "inner space" from "outer space" of an object) of one are fully perceptible, the dimensions of infinity are not perceptible. Since there are no similars like space or time and since the dimensions of space and time cannot be perceived fully, both are infinite. Like different objects with numbers can co-exist, different similarities can co-exist. Mathematics is possible only between numbers, whose dimensions are fully perceived. Hence mathematics using infinities is not possible. Complex numbers are hypothetical and not physical. They cannot be used in computer programming, which does all simulations involving hypothetical concepts.

The problem of division by zero that has led to "renormalization" because the result is supposed to be infinity is erroneous and contrary to mathematical principles. If you divide 20 by 5, then what you actually do is take out bunches of 5 from the lot of 20. When the lot becomes empty or the remainder is below 5, so that it cannot be considered a bunch and taken away further, the number of bunches of 5 are counted. That gives the result of division as 4. In case of division by zero, you take out bunches of zero. At no stage the lot becomes zero or less than zero. Thus, the operation is not complete and result of division cannot be known, just like while dividing 20 by 5, you cannot start counting the result after taking away three bunches. Conclusion: division by zero leaves the number unchanged. This is contained in an ancient mathematical treatise "Ganita Saara Samgraha" written by Mahavira.

Kindly do not take this post as offensive, but treat it as constructive criticism to improve our understanding.

Regards,

basudeba

    Kjetil

    I think you are asking the right questions, and I agree that it is important to find the 'building block' of the Universe. But as they say, the devil is in the details! The building block has to somehow reproduce all known experimental effects and to explain theoretical ones such as relativity, quantum mechanics etc. It is a long journey. I have been on such a quest for many years.

    Good luck to you

    Vladimir

      Dear basudeba,

      thank you for taking time to read and comment my essay, this was exactly what I was trying to achive. I'll try to answer your questions and objections and hopfully use this to sharpen the message if I write another essay.

      What I meant with infinite information density is that in a continuous universe the potential information between any two points are infinite. Aka the count of real numbers between two different real numbers.

      The definition of a collection or blob of information must be something like bits of information with a relation, in other words they can interact - this is what boils down to the shot at a definition of a universe. And that when two different collections of information or collection of bits have zero possibility to to interact or measure each other, they do not and will never have any possible way of influence each other. It is only possible to measure the collection of bits the observer is a member of. If we from this tries our definition of the universe and sets the collection of bits to infinite, any nonzero amount of interacting will result in an infinite amount of interacting leading to everything would happen everywhere all the time and this would be dull. Thats at least the reasoning - I guess I'll spend much time contemplating about infinities. So again - thanks for the comments.

      Kjetil

      Thanks for your comment Vladimir.

      As you said the devil is in the details, and it may not be feasible to do this bottom up approach but I think it's an interesting line of thought. And of course any experimental effects and to explain theoretical ones such as relativity, quantum mechanics that is impossible to explain will falsify it. Actually I do not think that one relation pr bit will do either, but adding another and make a multithreaded solution will cause a whopping increase in complexity. I sincerely which you luck on your long journey too.

      best regards

      Kjetil

      Dear mr Fisher,

      thanks for taking your time to read and comment my essay. What I tried to achieve with it was getting feedback form others contemplating these same issues. Could you explain what you thought was incomprehensible, and while you're at it also elaborate what you mean with acute abstraction intoxication. I did read your essay in an attempt to understand why you thought it was incomprehensible but it didn't really do the trick. I see that I should have been much clearer in what I define information as. Which must be something around these lines: the total actual data in a system, aka the configuration space, regardless if it has been measured or not. I found it humorous to read but not as sensible as you advertise.

      Hi Kjetil,

      I think you have been misunderstood, that is why you got bad ratings. However, I think your line of thinking is not bad at all. It is not entirely correct but it is very good. I don't have the time to go into details but you can check my theory which does a similar thing to your idea. And since you are a programer it should be easy for you.

        Kjetil

        "Absolutely everything is built on top of something that is either continuous or discrete"

        Not so. If it was continuous then it would remain in the same physical state, which it obviously does not. Existence can only be discrete.

        "Is the universe finite or infinite"

        We do not know, and never will, because we cannot transcend our own existence. In other words, what constitutes physical existence for us is all that is potentially knowable, and that is a function of a physical process. Whether we will ever know that is a practical question, but we certainly cannot know what is inherently unknowable.

        "The probability to have a finite distance from the start or end in an infinite amount of time is zero."

        Distance is a spatial relationship between entities which are existent at the same time, there cannot be a distance between something and something else which is not existent. 'Entities' only exist in one physically existent state at a time.

        "space must be a result of how bits interact with each other"

        Space (as in spatial relationship) is just the space which must be 'present' to accommodate physical entities. Space (as in 'not-matter') is just something which is different from matter.

        "Time is probably the most or one of the most basic features of the universe"

        Time relates to the turnover rate of realities, which in your language probably equates with 'universe'.

        Paul

          Dear Mr. Hustveit,

          You did have the good manners to warn us in the abstract of your essay that it would be totally incomprehensible, and you were right. What on earth is "a kind of thought experiment to discern what the universe's smallest element must be and how it might be possible to build the universe from it and argues why it is spatial finite and probably temporal finite" How many kinds of thought experiments are there presently in existence and how does one differentiate between their applicability? How can one know for certain that one is thinking about anything and not inadvertently merely thoughtfully experimenting with contradictory speculation? Are you the only person capable of thought experimentation?

          Hello Kjetil,

          Leibniz has a suggested building block for you (http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/pdf/leibmona.pdf), not too different from the Pythagorean idea. See also my take in my essay 'On the road not taken'.

          Regards,

          Akinbo

          Mr. Hustvelt,

          Hi. While I don't understand everything in your essay, I agree completely with the basic premise that thinking about the universe is best achieved by thinking of a fundamental building block and then trying to figure out how the universe can be derived from it. My essay will be along the same lines.

          On your specific points, I agree that our universe is discrete, but I think it's possible that whether or not a universe is viewed as discrete or continuous depends on one's perspective relative to the universe. For instance, an infinite-sized observer (relative to the discrete objects in our universe) outside our universe might view our universe as continuous, just like we might view the set of elements between 0 and 1 as continuous.

          That time depends on action seems to make perfect sense, IMHO. Also, as you mention, starting from a single bit which then replicates itself to produce a bigger universe seems like a good way to start a universe with very low entropy.

          If you're interested, some very similar ideas are at my website at:

          sites.google.com/site/ralphthewebsite

          Anyways, good essay!

          Roger

            I do not recall that i claimed to be the sole person capable of thought experimentation. It's really amazing what you read out from the abstract. Did you read the essay at all?

            I think the most important lesson from the feedback so far is that I must be much clearer in my text. But thanks for some positive feedback. I did read the first part of your theory and will certainly take time to read the rest.

            Thank you for taking time to read and even appriciate my essay. I look forward to read your ideas, exchanging ideas is what the idea behind this really is.

            Dear Sir,

            I read every word of your absurd essay including its hilarious opening "The first issue we must sort out is; is the universe continous (sic) or discrete? Absolutely everything is built on top of something that is either continous (sic) or discrete."

            My sensible essay BITTERS correctly describes the absolute states the real occurring Universe subscribes to: One (1) real Universe can only be eternally occurring in one real here and now while perpetually traveling at one real "speed" of light through one real infinite dimension once. One is the absolute of everything. (1) is the absolute of number. Real is the absolute of being. Universe is the absolute of energy. Eternal is the absolute of duration. Occurring is the absolute of action. Here and now are absolutes of location and time. Perpetual is the absolute of ever. Traveling is the absolute of conveyance method. Light is the absolute of speed. Infinite dimension is the absolute of distance and once is the absolute of history.

            The word continuous, even when it is spelled correctly is pretty meaningless, as is the word discrete. Everything in the real Universe is actually unique once and complete in itself.

            Dear Joe,

            At least we agree on one thing - we find each others essays completely meaningless.

            This has been fun

            Kjetil

            Dear Sir,

            As we have already explained real numbers are discrete units. Fractions are also discrete units of the subdivision of the earlier unit by the denominator. But when you refer to "the count of real numbers between two different real numbers", do you mean to say that the real numbers are analog? If you have two apples, the interval between them is also full of apples? It is beyond our understanding. We assign the discreteness to dimension. In solids, it is fixed, in fluids, it is loose and is affected by the container and in plasma, it is unbound.

            Mathematics is related also to the measurement of area or curves on a graph - the so-called mathematical structures, which are two dimensional structures. Thus, the basic assumptions of all topologies, including symplectic topology, linear and vector algebra and the tensor calculus, all representations of vector spaces, whether they are abstract or physical, real or complex, composed of whatever combination of scalars, vectors, quaternions, or tensors, and the current definition of the point, line, and derivative are necessarily at least one dimension less from physical space.

            The graph may represent space, but it is not space itself. The drawings of a circle, a square, a vector or any other physical representation, are similar abstractions. The circle represents only a two dimensional cross section of a three dimensional sphere. The square represents a surface of a cube. Without the cube or similar structure (including the paper), it has no physical existence. An ellipse may represent an orbit, but it is not the dynamical orbit itself. The vector is a fixed representation of velocity; it is not the dynamical velocity itself, and so on. The so-called simplification or scaling up or down of the drawing does not make it abstract. The basic abstraction is due to the fact that the mathematics that is applied to solve physical problems actually applies to the two dimensional diagram, and not to the three dimensional space.

            The numbers are assigned to points on the piece of paper or in the Cartesian graph, and not to points in space. If one assigns a number to a point in space, what one really means is that it is at a certain distance from an arbitrarily chosen origin. Thus, by assigning a number to a point in space, what one really does is assign an origin, which is another point in space leading to a contradiction. The point in space can exist by itself as the equilibrium position of various forces. But a point on a paper exists only with reference to the arbitrarily assigned origin. If additional force is applied, the locus of the point in space resolves into two equal but oppositely directed field lines. But the locus of a point on a graph is always unidirectional and depicts distance - linear or non-linear, but not force. Thus, a physical structure is different from its mathematical representation. Hence you cannot apply these so-called mathematical concepts to physics or information.

            All information is in a relation between an object and a concept defining that object. Interconnectedness and interdependence are the laws of Nature. But then there is a concept of eigenfunctions and eigenvalues. You cannot make any combinations. There are rabbits and there are horns, but you cannot describe a rabbit with horns except in dreams.Kindly ponder over it.

            Regards,

            basudeba

            Hi again basudeba,

            This may be the result of a mutual misunderstanding but real numbers are not discrete. Due to my lazy nature I borrowed this from wikipedia: "a real number is a value that represents a quantity along a continuous line." And to me the rest of the text in your comment seems like you have thrown in all the names of mathematical concepts you know of to make an argument without any content. It is entirely my fault that I was not able to write my essay in a way that communicated my ideas to you, but you are ranting away with things that are at best loosely connected to what I actually wrote. For example in your first comment you trail of with division by zero which was not mentioned in the essay. And Mahavira's handling of the division by zero problem isn't actually very successful. But it very interesting from a historical point of view. What I tried to do in my essay, was to argue why the foundations of the universe is discrete and finite and how it can be possible to use this knowledge to

            explore the universe from the bottom and up.

            Regards

            Kjetil

            Hi Akinbo,

            I really like the monad idea and I think your essay was elegantly written (I've only had time to skim through it now but will read it closer later today). I think the idea of finding the simplest way to describe a phenomena is very central. Thanks for pointing me to the Leibniz text

            Regards

            Kjetil

            Dear Sir,

            You must be really lazy. For in the Wikipedia, you missed "These descriptions of the real numbers are not sufficiently rigorous by the modern standards of pure mathematics" in the beginning of the next para. With this ostrich like behavior, we wonder, how far you can go. Please stop insulting others for your lack of understanding. We terminate this correspondence here.

            Regards,

            basudeba