Paul

You ask; Why is it surprising? that "no two physical entities are identical."

You only need to read Basudeba's stated belief above to see why it needs pointing out. Most have become so familiar with the symbols we invoke to "represent" reality that they have, like Basudeba, come to believe the symbol or 'name' actually IS the real entity!, or at least is equivalent.

What I've pointed out is, as Dirac identified, that there are two CLASSES which we've mixed up. There is the REAL, which is 'entities' and 'interactions', and then EVERYTHING else!! (maths and derivatives). For most, like Basudeba, and most mathematicians it seems, this will go straight over their heads as the assumption is too deeply entrenched and hidden. You have done well to see it but you may even prove to be in a minority. However, it is the implications that are important!

INFINITE UNIVERSE. In a universe based on 'reality', if you can show any logic for either physical boundaries or temporal limits then I agree. But in saying; 'all that can happen will', I don't refer to the closed system you refer. I agree it would certainly not be true with that axiom. But if I had suggested last year that you were at 'non-zero' risk of the ground opening up and swallowing you while you slept, or a shooting star smashing all your windows, you may have called me foolish. Again it's the implication that's far more important; supporting the 'reducing' middle A~A for "reality", (Bayesian inverse probability distribution curve) not the 'excluded' middle (A=A and 0 or 1) that maths uses and is at the foundation of all logical paradox. (predicate logic).

    Hi Peter,

    Even though my own view on the reality is different I really appreciate your experimental approach. Many physicists create theories that do not generate predictions so they are not falsifiable. We disagree and we should disagree but the final judgment is possible by an experiment.

    I have proposed an experiment too and I hope that some content of your essay could possibly be helpful in the detailed configuration of my experimental equipment. As I am nonacademic entrant maybe you could advise me a bit in my experiment?

    Your essay is not easy to comprehend so I plan to read it once more and then try to discuss.

    Best regards

    Vladimir,

    Good to hear from you. The IQbit is only a vehicle to demonstrate how non fundamental the bit is. I've now read your excellent essay and agree your 'deeper order', which is equivalent to the infinite ordered 'subsets' of sample space probability distributions I identify, probably well below Planck scale, but like a vanishing point on an art work, it it not reality as there is no such real thing as a 'point'. So I conclude causal 'DETERMINISM', but that nothing is 'PRE-DETERMINED,' a subtle but important distinction. (see my linked unabridged version conclusions)

    I particularly agreed, exposing Basudeba's belief above and as my note to Paul below, your comment; "in arrogance and short-sightedness we have fallen into the trap of confusing our derived knowledge of Reality with Reality itself."

    I'm disappointed no comments so far on my EPR case resolution, which I think is original and seminal. I know it's complex, is it too complex?

    Basudeba,

    Good to see you here. I agree most of your comments, and look forward to reading your essay. If it follows you prior work I'm sure I'll agree that too.

    There are experimental doubts over your 'a few km' as 10k is claimed, but I identify a big difference between local harmonic resonance effects and a truly conserved ''handed' spin state. Hopefully I then remove all the mystery. Your comments give your view but may be better proffering opinions on each essay.

    The one thing I wish to explain better is the difference between the 'excluded middle' (A=A) and Godel's n-valued logic (the reducing middle of a probability amplitude distribution). I go to lengths to identify the different 'classes' of real physical 'entities' on one hand and 'assigned symbols/names numbers' on the other. As I respond to Paul below, those embedded in mathematics will not easily distinguish between these, as you haven't. I was astonished to find Paul Dirac HAD found that a line needed to be drawn 'somewhere'!! Though he could not discern where.

    If you know anything of logic you'll know famously that maths can't be derived directly from logic, and that all logical systems, like mathematics, are 'ultimately beset by paradox' (including infinities, singularities and transcendental numbers etc). This is however only if logic is based on the foundation of the excluded middle A=A, which ignores quantum uncertainty. So I identify Dirac's 'LINE' as allowing A=A for all mathematics etc, as 'good approximation' od nature, but A~A to allow non paradoxical logic, reality and quantum physics.

    If you can however identify or show me ANY two ACTUAL physical entities that are identical down to microscopic level, even grains of sand, then you may stand a change of being correct. I suggest not. Do you think you could?

    Dear Sir,

    Our paper has been published alongside yours.

    We are unable to see the physical significance of the excluded middle or the n-valued logic in relation to particles. Can you apply the concepts of the excluded middle or the n-valued logic to proton-neutron conversion? As the famous Cambridge coconut puzzle shows, all of mathematics is not physics. Dirac's solution of the puzzle is mathematics, but "-4 coconuts" is not physics.

    The validity of a mathematical statement is judged by its logical consistency. This is the opinions of all mathematicians and philosophers of science. Thus your mathematics without logic is not understood by us. Kindly elaborate. Pure mathematics does not have paradoxes. When physicists manipulate mathematics, it gives rise to paradoxes. We have explained it repeatedly. We are doing it now.

    Number is a property of all substances by which we differentiate between similars. If there are no other similars, then it is one. If there are similars, then it is many. Depending the times of perception of similars, many can be 2. 3. ....n. Zero is the spatio-temporal absence of something that exists elsewhere. Infinity is like one - without similars - with one difference. While the dimensions (the perception of difference between the "inner space" from "outer space" of an object) of one are fully perceptible, the dimensions of infinity are not perceptible. Since there are no similars like space or time and since the dimensions of space and time cannot be perceived fully, both are infinite. Like different objects with numbers can co-exist, different similarities can co-exist. Mathematics is possible only between numbers, whose dimensions are fully perceived. Hence mathematics using infinities is not possible. Complex numbers are hypothetical and not physical. They cannot be used in computer programming, which does all simulations involving hypothetical concepts.

    The problem of division by zero that has led to manipulative "mathematics" called "renormalization", because the result, that is supposed to be infinity, is erroneous and contrary to mathematical principles. If you divide 20 by 5, then what you actually do is take out bunches of 5 from the lot of 20. When the lot becomes empty or the remainder is below 5, so that it cannot be considered a bunch and taken away further, the number of bunches of 5 are counted. That gives the result of division as 4. In case of division by zero, you take out bunches of zero. At no stage the lot becomes zero or less than zero. Thus, the operation is not complete and result of division cannot be known, just like while dividing 20 by 5, you cannot start counting the result after taking away three bunches. Conclusion: division by zero leaves the number unchanged. Same with singularities and transcendental numbers, etc. We have written a book on this subject. So please do not blame mathematicians.

    Finally we recommend you to read the work of Leibnitz on indiscernibles. Can you find the difference between two quantum particles?

    Regards,

    basudeba

    Dear Sir,

    We never said that: "the symbol or 'name' actually IS the real entity!, or at least is equivalent." This is your statement. All we said is that :"Here the uniqueness is not for the person, but a name of the person - of all possible names, it is one, hence unique. There can be many people with Aristotle as their name and for all of their names, A = A is valid."

    Regarding the issue of indiscernibles, please read our comment above.

    Regards,

    Basudeba,

    The value is in it's power to resolve paradoxes. The sternest test is the EPR paradox. In denying Aristotle = Aristotle you had in mind the name only. A series of man made symbols. Now consider the PERSON and you will find A=A cannot apply, as it cannot PRECISELY to any 2 coconuts. I'll even give you £100 if you can show me two printed letters 'A' that I can't distinguish with an electron microscope!! That is 'physical reality'.

    SO as I say for NATURE A=A is false. For mathematical representation it's essential.

    You're obviously not familiar with Logic. The word is used loosely in mathematics. Of course you can retain that basic form. But are singularities and transcendental numbers logical? Tell me what precisely, in less that a year, is 2/3rds of 2? Godel showed the limit with his n-valued logic, which gives the Bayesion inverse distribution curve BETWEEEN integers. Cardano and Godel showed how any assumption by mathematicians that A=A is also 'real' leads inevitably to to the paradoxes.

    I'n not familiar with proton-neutron conversion, but QM uncertainty must apply, and THAT is what is rendered logical by the 'reducing' middle from a real physical interaction between particles with orbital angular momentum.

    But I don't expect all to be able to make the distinction or see it's value in application. According to my thesis we all think differently!

    best wishes

    PS Please call me Peter

    Jack,

    Thanks. I'll offer any help I can. I normally disect others experiments to spot errors and poor interpretations (rife!) rather than doing my own, but it is fun.

    I've put your essay on my list to read soon. I'm intrigued specifically where it is we disagree, and look forward to finding why.

    Best of luck.

    Peter

    Hi Peter,

    I reread your essay attentively,

    and it seems that we have a lot of paralels ( not exactly the same ideas but they share the same thoughts).

    * the two higher order spaces you describe as infinite hierarchical subsets of "sample space" and the "excluded middle" are perceptions of what I called Total Simultaneity, and in my essay (which is submitted now and waiting for acceptance) I try to find the origin of this Total Simultaneity in the form of the "Primal Sequence".

    * Your "excuded middle" may seem like all the possible pure states between the two extremities of yes/no 0/1 etc.

    you say " no two physical entities are identical". fully agree because of the fact that each individual is receivibg different data (difference in distance means difference in time observation) so Aristotle is only Aristotle for himself, all the other ones as described in history books are not the real one , just because of the fact that nor you nor me IS aristotle.

    Cardano's sample space : you mention : set of all possible outcomes, sample space is also an infinite scale hierarchy of many higher order spaces or subsets...... touches my Total Simultaneity, only I place this entity beyond the Planck length and time where there is no longer before and after.

    * you say : by using some datum for signal speed etc "only then can any measurement be made" We can make any measurement just by agrreing on the references but.... also these references stay relative, the reference of reference is our consciousness.

    * I do not understand your line : Free space is faster than solid optics, or does it mean that in absilute vaccum light is faster as in solids ?

    * In the EPR paradox you mention : The "interveing" results etc... This is what in my essay is meant by "the shades of grey".

    I enjoyed very much your essay, we are both on the same road, and once I received my code for rating I will rate you in accordance.

    Wilhelmus

      Thanks Peter we agree about some basic things. I re-read your proposal concerning EPR and Bell's experiment. Are you proposing using green and red light? How can such an entangled pair be produced? It is a highly technical field that I do not have the gumption to enter at this time! I am entangled in lines of computer code trying to simulate some scenarios in my Beautiful Universe theory

      To my mind the crux of EPR and Bell is that everyone, Einstein and friends included, assumed that the two photons are probabilistic, so that when it turns out they are related it seems so strange and some hidden explanation is necessary. Not if one thinks that the pair are in sync (but with opposite spin) from their initial emission until they reach the detectors. It is the randomness of phase (state in the atoms) of the detectors - not the assumed probabilistic randomness of the photons - that produce the famous non-classical sensing effects. It is much ado about nothing really. I hope this explanation makes sense and can be used to demystify the experimental results.

      And of course when I say 'photon' I mean a wave packet not a point particle.

      Is your son presenting an essay this year? With best wishes to you both.

      Vladimir

        Wilhelmus,

        Thank you kindly. I agree there are some close analogies and am glad you find so much agreement. I greatly look forward to reading yours as usual.

        Yes, when talking about signal speed; "Free space is faster than solid optics", meant propagation speed in fibre optics is far slower than a vacuum, in fact almost exactly 2/3rds as fast. But free space then has other issues, whether air or a so-called vacuum, due to uncontrollable stochastic (random) interactions etc.

        Best wishes

        Peter

        Dear Sir,

        You have again quoted us wrongly ("In denying Aristotle = Aristotle you had in mind the name only"). We never denied this, but supported this, while you denied this. If "A=A cannot apply", the "2 coconuts" will be meaningless. Addition is possible only between objects of the same class. You can add one coconut and an apple as fruits only. Otherwise they will be individual members. If we treat a set of one element, we will land in the Russell's paradox. We have used this to disprove the equivalence principle.

        Although we are not interested in betting, still we advise you to type indiscernible on GOOGLE and you will find many papers on this subject starting with Leibnitz.

        Mathematics is said to be the language of Science and logical consistency is the proof of validity of a mathematical statement. Thus, if you dent mathematical logic, then your logic must be unscientific. We have already clarified that all of mathematics is not physics and logically inconsistent manipulations are not mathematics. Your reply shows your limited knowledge of physics - particularly elementary particle physics. Thus, our position is difficult for you to understand.

        Regards,

        basudeba

        P.S. We are not addressing your person, but to your intellect. Hence we are addressing Sir.

        • [deleted]

        Vladimir,

        Red and green lights are fine if we have a photographers light meter to obtain an 'intensity' reading in each case. Better still, red and green lights as toroidal rings of smaller lights, which would genuinely represent the orbital energy distribution in the case of EACH interaction.

        What fools experimenters at present is the belief that 'statistical analysis' of many non correlated photons in a stream can take the place of real comparisons between individual pairs. In other words, the Malus' Law orbital distribution at interaction is simply not available to most present experimental techniques.

        Or the 'Shapiro' trick is used. Throw away as much inconsistent data as you need to get the result you want. Get a 1 second delay of a radar signal bounced from Venus when near the sun, then make an allowance of all but 2ns for ionospheric diffraction (not existent in SR at the time of course) then take that away from the total and, guess what; you get a result of 2ns! precisely as predicted!!

        Of course SR CAN admit diffraction, but they didn't know that then, and the real data didn't emerge until much later. Venus Express has now also confirmed the cause. If an experimenter doing his PhD like Aspect found result INconsistent with Bell's prediction he'd have failed of course. Yet to his credit he was honest, in the French paper at least, about the aberrations thrown away.

        I suggest now that 'wave-packet' be 'squared' by Born's Rule to work in 3D not 2D and considered as a helix. It won't happen of course!

        I think Matt was a bit disillusioned last year but I don't know about Charley. It seems the trolls now start instantly; A score of 2 seemed to hit mine within a minute of appearing! I hope most are too honest to lower themselves to that.

        Peter

        Vladimir,

        Whoops! I see the hidden 'log-out' is still around! That was of course me above.

        Sorry about what that horrid froggy did to your family home. Boney had a lot to answer for by the time he met his Waterloo. Their punishment is now eternally having to learn English to participate in science. A bit harsh, but serves them right!

        Nice oranges.

        Peter

        Basudeba,

        You now confuse me. You stated that my argument: "Aristotle is a Proper Noun, the definition of which is a unique entity. There can't then be more than one Aristotle, so A = A can only be true metaphysically." - is false.

        I simply proposed, by the definitions of 'physical' v 'metaphysical' I axiomised, that when we consider Aristotle as a PERSON, then Aristotle = Aristotle is not true 'physically' but IS true 'metaphysically', i.e. true mathematically, and also true as names or symbols. Only the 'mapping back to nature' exposed the difference, as you identify between the maths and the nature it is modelling.

        Now perhaps your definition of 'metaphysical' differs from the one axiomised, which is as 'representative' of a real physical entity. If not hope you can more clearly explain whether you agree or disagree with my proposition as axiomised.

        You also seem to be saying I suggested maths is not logical. Of course I did not!, indeed I suggested that freed of paradox it may then be even MORE logical! The problem indeed lay with Russel's predicates including causing issues for his predicate calculus. There are of course many different logical systems. Do you not agree with Godel?

        But I also fear you keep returning to this minor semantic point when missing the very important implications, allowing the logical resolution of Bells theorem. Did you understand the issue with statistical analysis and how it was overcome?

        I look forward to reading your essay. Is your disproof is the equivalence principle rationalised in there?

        Best wishes

        Peter

        Dear Sir,

        What is meant by the equality sign? Both in physics, mathematics and metaphysics, this means we are comparing two related aspects of some objects, when by changing any parameter on the left hand side the behavior of the right hand side matches observation. If you assign the "person" to the left hand side, he being unique, A=A. If you assign the "name" to the left hand side, it being unique among names, again A=A. Where is the confusion? Your definition of metaphysics is correct, but that does not affect the outcome. There are no paradoxes in mathematics. All paradoxes are wrong description of facts, as is explained below in refuting equivalence principle:

        The cornerstone of GR is the principle of equivalence. It has been generally accepted without much questioning. Equivalence is not a first principle of physics, as is often stated, but merely an ad hoc metaphysical concept designed to induce the uninitiated to imagine that gravity has magical non-local powers of infinite reach. The appeal to believe in such a miraculous form of gravity is very strong. Virtually everyone, and especially physicists, accept Equivalence as an article of faith even though it has never been positively verified by either experimental or observational physics. All of the many experiments and observations show that the equivalence of gravity and inertia simply does not exist. If we analyze the concept scientifically, we find a situation akin to the Russell's paradox of Set theory, which raises an interesting question: If S is the set of all sets which do not have themselves as a member, is S a member of itself? The general principle (discussed in our book Vaidic Theory of Numbers) is that: there cannot be many without one, meaning there cannot be a set without individual elements (example: a library - collection of books - cannot exist without individual books). In one there cannot be many, implying, there cannot be a set of one element or a set of one element is superfluous (example: a book is not a library) - they would be individual members unrelated to each other as is a necessary condition of a set. Thus, in the ultimate analysis, a collection of objects is either a set with its elements, or individual objects that are not the elements of a set.

        Let us examine set theory and consider the property p(x): x does not belong to x, which means the defining property p(x) of any element x is such that it does not belong to x. Nothing appears unusual about such a property. Many sets have this property. A library [p(x)] is a collection of books. But a book is not a library [x does not belong to x]. Now, suppose this property defines the set R = {x : x does not belong to x}. It must be possible to determine if R belongs to R or R does not belong to R. However if R belongs to R, then the defining properties of R implies that R does not belong to R, which contradicts the supposition that R belongs to R. Similarly, the supposition R does not belong to R confers on R the right to be an element of R, again leading to a contradiction. The only possible conclusion is that, the property "x does not belong to x" cannot define a set. This idea is also known as the Axiom of Separation in Zermelo-Frankel set theory, which postulates that; "Objects can only be composed of other objects" or "Objects shall not contain themselves".

        In order to avoid this paradox, it has to be ensured that a set is not a member of itself. It is convenient to choose a "largest" set in any given context called the universal set and confine the study to the elements of such universal set only. This set may vary in different contexts, but in a given set up, the universal set should be so specified that no occasion arises ever to digress from it. Otherwise, there is every danger of colliding with paradoxes such as the Russell's paradox. Or as it is put in the everyday language: "A man of Serville is shaved by the Barber of Serville if and only if the man does not shave himself?"

        There is a similar problem in the theory of General Relativity and the principle of equivalence. Inside a spacecraft in deep space, objects behave like suspended particles in a fluid or like the asteroids in the asteroid belt. Usually, they are relatively stationary in the medium unless some other force acts upon them. This is because of the relative distribution of mass inside the spacecraft and its dimensional volume that determines the average density at each point inside the spacecraft. Further the average density of the local medium of space is factored into in this calculation. The light ray from outside can be related to the space craft only if we consider the bigger frame of reference containing both the space emitting light and the spacecraft. If the passengers could observe the scene outside the space-craft, they will notice this difference and know that the space craft is moving. In that case, the reasons for the apparent curvature will be known. If we consider outside space as a separate frame of reference unrelated to the space craft, the ray emitted by it cannot be considered inside the space craft. The emission of the ray will be restricted to those emanating from within the spacecraft. In that case, the ray will move straight inside the space craft. In either case, the description of Mr. Einstein is faulty. Thus, both SR and GR including the principles of equivalence are wrong descriptions of reality. Hence all mathematical derivatives built upon these wrong descriptions are also wrong. We will explain all so-called experimental verifications of the SR and GR by alternative mechanisms or other verifiable explanations.

        Relativity is an operational concept, but not an existential concept. The equations apply to data and not to particles. When we approach a mountain from a distance, its volume appears to increase. What this means is that the visual perception of volume (scaling up of the angle of incoming radiation) changes at a particular rate. But locally, there is no such impact on the mountain. It exists as it was. The same principle applies to the perception of objects with high velocities. The changing volume is perceived at different times depending upon our relative velocity. If we move fast, it appears earlier. If we move slowly, it appears later. Our differential perception is related to changing angles of radiation and not the changing states of the object. It does not apply to locality. Einstein has also admitted this. But the Standard model treats these as absolute changes that not only change the perceptions, but change the particle also!

        Regards,

        basudeba

        Dear Sir,

        We are not discussing Bell's theorem or Godel here because of space constraint. In case you are interested, we can mail these separately to you.

        Regards,

        basudeba

        Peter

        I am not sure that most people fail to understand the difference between reality and representations thereof. Furthermore, representations thereof, if they correspond with existence as knowable to us, are perfectly acceptable. You seem to fail to understand that, for us, there is no reality which we can 'directly access'. Physical existence is all that is potentially knowable to us (this explains no infinite), whether we can attain it is another, practical not metaphysical, matter. But what that means is that, once proven (within the existentially closed system within which we are confined), knowledge can be deemed to be the equivalent of physical existence.

        The real issue here is our ontologically incorrect conception of reality. We conceive of it in terms of superficial characteristics, even though we know what is occurring is altering. And we do not follow that through to its conclusion. Which is that to obtain both existence and difference, then whatever comprises it must be in a sequence of discrete definitive physically existent states. That is the proper generic physical explanation of what you are trying to say.

        Paul

        • [deleted]

        Thanks Peter!

        Yes working with single packets of light if possible is the only way to study all these amazing mind-boggling phenomena. One day someone can prove experimentally whether the photon is helical or not). As you point out there are many clever ways to get wrong results, particularly when relying on statistical arguments.

        As they say let's "keep on truckin'!"

        Vladimir

        Joe,

        I've read your great essay and also agree everything you say above.

        I hope my proposal for the solution to your question didn't pass you by. Drawa a dividing line; Real entities and interactions on one side only A~A), and mathematics and all related derivatives etc. on the other (A=A). Do give me your views. Basudeba (above) has objections, as I suspect will many steeped in and too familiar with just mathematical thinking.

        It's great to find some mutual thinking and support. Alan Kadin is also close.

        I'll respond with more comments on yours on your string.

        Best of luck.