Hi, Sreenath

Paragraph by paragraph:

I do not dispute that string theory and loop quantum gravity have not as yet been tested and, if this keeps up, they may need to be relegated to the dustbin of useless theories. (But remember that it was many years between the first statement of Einstein's theories and the possibility to measure them; so too was Bell's theorem only much later tested in the lab, and so forth. It may be too early to rule out the possibility to test string theory or loop quantum gravity.) But in any case I would not say that they have not come up with new ideas, which is what you mentioned. Some of the mechanisms in these theories are quite ingenious; whether they are physics or just good fantasy is another question. But good fantasy can also come up with new ideas.

When I said that the use of your definition might be a little awkward in practice even if valid in theory, I meant that physics is couched in terms which are mostly stated as if humans did not come into it: even the observers in relativity do not need to be human, quantum physics deals with changes by energy, not mentioning whether that energy is part of a chain linking it to a human. Physics equations do not need a human in them, allowing them to be used by both Idealists and Materialists. The interpretation as to what the equations mean is another matter. Hence, in measuring for example the entropy of a black hole, one does not put in a chain of equations linking it to the humans who make the measurements of the astronomers from their radio telescopes. You yourself emphasize the link of physics to mathematics, and one generally uses 2+2=4 without explicitly stating that humans invented the plus sign. Yes, it is understood that the link is there, that physics as a human activity (which may be different to the laws of the universe) requires humans, but in practice this link remains implicit, not explicit. Making it explicit would make physics very awkward. This does not mean that it is an invalid philosophical position, though.

I now understand what you meant: I misunderstood your phrase ".... had begun on earth for about a billion years, even prior to the existence of simplest form of life, " to imply that "the existence of simplest form of life" preceded the point of time of a billion years ago, whereas you meant the billion years between the formation of the earth and the beginning of life. My mistake; thanks for explaining this to me.

As far as biology's reduction to physics: this is, at the moment, a matter of belief, since of course right now one cannot carry out this reduction. However, there is nothing to exclude it, and the practice of modern neurobiology rests on the goal of completing this reduction eventually. Indeed, quite a lot about intention in the brain is already known. Your example only rests on your belief that the limitations of our present technology are absolute. Of course, even when the correlation between brain and mind will be perfect, there will still remain the option to say that it is only a correlation, and that they are not the same thing. This is known as the Mind-Body Problem; you can google it for further information.

You are of course free to coin your own definition of evolution; I was merely pointing out that your definition does not coincide with the common definition in modern biology.

The restrictions I had in mind were not akin to those of religion or religious authorities. Rather, I was thinking of the restrictions brought about by quantum physics (you cannot ask what goes on in the "quantum foam") and by mathematical logic (if you use mathematics in which arithmetic can be embedded, then you cannot determine, using the tools of that mathematics, whether your system is consistent; using another system to determine it then merely transfers the problem to your new system).

Perhaps I understood your stance incorrectly, but it appeared to me that you were implying that Reality was deducible from pure mathematics. In Kant's terms, that there are a priori synthetic truths. For this Kant used the example of the statement that a triangle will always contain 180 degrees, which then was shown to be false. That is, a system of pure mathematics alone (I emphasize "alone") cannot explain Reality, because a mathematician can think of another system which will contradict that explanation, and is mathematically just as valid. That does not mean that mathematics is useless: that is, combining mathematics with something else could very well explain reality, but the problem is to figure out what that "something else" is. I don't have the answer to that one.

Best regards, David

Dear Sreenath,

As promised, I read your essay. I must confess I do not have the expertise to comment on issues which relate to mind, biology, and mathematics. In our essay we were addressing `it versus bit' in quantum theory - you say bit is more important than it in quantum theory. We argue against this hypothesis and conclude otherwise, even for quantum theory.

A few statements in your essay puzzle me. You say: "Whereas in quantum physics, both Space and Time are discrete entities and hence there are gaps in both Spatial and Temporal intervals; i.e., Space and Time are quantized. " But this is not so - space-time is assumed to be a continuum in quantum theory. Also I could not understand what it means to say "In this sense, even our Knowledge is non-physical in nature although it tries to explain the physics of the external world."

With best regards,

Tejinder

    Dear Dr. Tejinder singh,

    Thanks for going through my article and also for your kind comments. It is true that in quantum theory, I view Bit as more important than It and this is what is to be expected from the Copenhagen interpretation of QM; in the quantum world, it is the experimental set up (with information fed in to it) which decides the probability of its outcome. That is, for the same type of experiment, we get different results which means that for the same Bit we get different Its and in this sense Bit is more basic and more important than It. I have not yet gone through your essay and hence don't know how you have argued there as opposed to my view and I am eager to read your essay and post my comments soon on it.

    It is true that Space-Time as back ground entity is assumed to be a continuum in quantum theory to describe the motion of the 'psi-function' or of quantum particles but once measurements are carried out we get an array of values which suggest that the motion is not continuous as is to be expected from classical physics if Space-Time were a continuum. That is, the results obtained do not match with the continuity of Space-Time. The quantization of space and time is explicit in the motion of electrons in the orbits of an atom, especially when they jump from one orbit to another, and this I have said in my essay in detail. The gap between the two orbits is said to be quantized as we cannot describe the motion between the two orbits whether we consider electron as a particle or as a wave. In this sense Space and Time are quantized and there are gaps in Spatial and Temporal intervals.

    Regarding our knowledge as non-physical in nature, it is to be noted that 'our knowledge' is as a result of function of our mind and hence intertwined to our mental processes and they are non-physical in nature; that is why our knowledge is also non-physical in nature although it might be objective corresponding to the physical world.

    Best regards,

    Sreenath

    Dear Torsten,

    Thanks for going through my essay and for your kind comments.

    The fact that space points can exist and these are disconnected itself shows that space is discrete in QM.

    I agree with your view on mathematics.

    I will post my comments on your essay soon.

    Best of luck,

    Sreenath

    Dear Sreenath,

    I like that you've considered the question of us as observers - it was an enjoyable essay to read! Also your conclusion that Bit may come from It is nicely explained.

    Well done & best wishes,

    Antony

      Dear Antony,

      I appreciate your comments and I have read your intriguing essay too and post my comments on your thread.

      Best wishes,

      Sreenath

      6 days later

      Dear Sreenath,

      As I promised in my FQXi Essay page, I have read your essay. I appreciated your idea to discuss the relationship between information and reality not only in Physics but also in Biology and Mathematics. I also find fantastic the aphorism "Bit comes from It, but mind can know of It only through Bit." Your work is very peculiar and I had lots of fun in reading it.

      Thus, I am going to give you an high score.

      Cheers,

      Ch.

        Dear Corda,

        Thanks for your compliments and so do I.

        Cheers,

        Sreenath

        Dear Sreenath,

        Thank you for the impact of your favorable appreciation. I did my best before on your essay. Reading you again, I realize that may be some questions regarding DNA/RNA and their three-dimensional embedding could be approached with dessins d'enfants or the related language. By the way, do you have any comment about the non-coding role of the genome.

        Good luck,

        Michel

        • [deleted]

        Sreenath,

        Hi. This was a good essay, and I liked how you discussed the view of information from three different perspectives, physics, math and biology. A couple of minor comments are:

        1. In the conclusion where you mention:

        Although Information & Reality (Bit & It) have physical origin, without mind they are in themselves

        empty and blind. Bit comes from It, but mind can know of It only through Bit.

        my view is that the mind is contained within and made of the brain. That is, all the "abstract" abstracts in our minds are actually composed of neuronal interconnections, ion gradients between neurons, etc. I can't rule out the possibility of a mind separate from the brain, but until someone can show me where it is and provide evidence for it, I'll go with the brain. So, in a way, even the information/bits in the mind are made of its.

        2. I think it's theoretically possible to describe all of life in terms of physics, but it would require almost infinite amounts of time, complexity and computing power. So, for all practical purposes, the emergent properties of biology are much better explained in terms of biological properties than physical properties.

        3. I agree with you that the human mind can eventually grasp everything about reality. It may not be able to prove everything because humans can't step outside reality but it can grasp everything. But, in millions of years when we can grasp everything, eventually there will be nothing left to grasp, and the growth of the human mind may plateau. This kind of flat growth at first, then exponential growth, then plateauing growth is very similar to the growth curve of microorganisms.

        4. You're right about prebiotic evolution, but back then, there wasn't even DNA and RNA, there were just some molecules that could use the other molecules in the environment to make additional copies of themselves. Eventually, this became more complex, got enclosed in lipids (for a membrane) to become a cell, and on and on.

        5. The study of information flow from the outside of an organism (cell, tissue, organism) to the inside is usually called signal transduction at least in the case of cells, and there are lots of studies being done on analyzing this not only biochemically but with information and signal processing theory. Also, even separate from cells, biomolecules like proteins can also respond to information such as the pH of a solution by changing their shape, and this is really a type of information sensing, too.

        Anyways, very interesting essay! Thanks!

        Roger

          Dear Roger,

          Thanks for your kind and good analysis of my essay. Out of the five comments you have made, I agree with the last three comments fully as you are an expert in that field and for the first two comments I want to make minor clarifications.

          The mind is contained not only within the brain but it is as a result of the 'functions' of the brain and I have made this point clear in my article.

          Regarding the second comment as to why it is impossible to explain biology in terms of physics is for the following simple reason; suppose you are waving your hand to a crowd, the waving of your hand can be precisely defined in terms of physics, but the 'intension/ purpose' behind it cannot be described in terms of physics. Physics cannot describe 'purposive acts' which are 'often' the hallmark of living beings and these are also behind the evolution of Life, and even nonlinear or chaos dynamics based on physics can explain them but only if these dynamics are based on biology then they can account for them.

          Thanking you once again for your fine comments and I will post my comments on your essay soon.

          Sreenath

          Dear Sreenath,

          Thank you for your very nice comments on my essay. I have gone through your nice essay also, and conceptually your is similar to mine. I am giving account of both below. Your concluding words

          - - - - Although Information & Reality (Bit & It) have physical origin, without mind they are in themselves empty and blind. Bit comes from It, but mind can know of It only through Bit- - - -

          That is very nice, and in my opinion, we have physical 5 s-enses and a sixth sense called mind. We form pictures of all the real things around us in our mind from these senses. Mind interprets these real things around us for forming these pictures. All these information will be lost when we die.

          We invented the communication to transfer these pictures to fellow humans.

          This communication uses information which is nothing but description of our mental picture.

          - - - -

          Your comments - - - - The theme up on which your essay is based is having deep rooted meaning and you have aptly said that it is 'IT from Bit' - - - -

          Here I mean to say, whatever the manner one describes the material or matter with words, mental thoughts, using information technology or computers, his descriptions will not produce matar bits or atoms. This explanation can give information describing the material bits only and nothing more.

          Here I used words - -IT- - for: - -Information technology- - and - -Bit- - for : --a piece of material or a bit of material- -

          Please reply in my thread so that I will get a communication from FQXi, and I can reply you. .

          best

          =snp

            Hi Sreenath,

            I just read your essay and noticed that of all the ones that I have read so far, yours is the closest in organizational structure to mine, although I did not cast my net as wide so as to include biology and mathematics.

            As for whether reality can be really considered separate from it, I think it would have helped if you could have mentioned some quantitative relations that support your assertion. What equations in physics point to the existence of a reality apart from it or bit? I am genuinely curious because I believe that existence is not a binary concept, so it would be stimulating to see your idea tied more precisely to known relations in physics.

            All the best,

            Armin

              Dear Armin,

              Thanks for reading my essay and I appreciate your comments. Your query is an intriguing one and is at the basis of 'our' epistemology. I have made it clear in my essay while concluding that 'mind can know It only through Bit although It (reality) is having an independent existence'. So the problem of knowing It apart from Bit by the mind wouldn't exist and that is why I have concluded in my essay that 'for our knowledge to exist all three (It, Bit and mind) must coexist'. Speaking in terms of physics (or, in general, in science), It is having different forms and it depends on how you cognize It by interpreting different Bits in different terms. One of the best examples is gravitation itself; you can view it in Newtonian-way, Einsteinian-way, phenomenological-way, etc. The same thing happens in the quantum world also. So as to your question "What equations in physics point to the existence of a reality apart from it or bit?" I would have to answer in the negative. In this sense I agree with your belief that the 'existence is not a binary concept'.

              It is only in religions that the 'absolute reality' (usually called God) can be grasped in its 'purest' form as it is, in the 'mystic experience' and this experience is 'indescribable' in terms of language or mathematics and it can only be 'felt'. Here also the existence of 'subject' and 'object' is not a binary concept.

              I look forward to hear from you more and I have down loaded your essay and soon post my comments in your thread.

              All the best,

              Sreenath

              Dear SNP Gupta,

              Thanks for your fine analysis of my essay and for your kind compliments and in the final analysis, in treating It as primary to Bit, we both agree. The meaning that you have given to 'IT from Bit' simply substantiates that.

              All the best in the essay contest.

              Sreenath

              Hello Sreenath

              I rated you essay very highly (8). This may seem rather over the top, but I thought it was better than the other essays; at least in that it had an ordered structure and explained why you believe what you believe, and was about foundations of our disciplines and models of reality. I focused particularly on the mathematics. Von Neumann argued that mathematics actually finds it roots in empiricism, contrary to the assumptions of others (I guess including Kant).

              In my essay, while there was not time to discuss it, the mathematics is entirely evolved from the GPE, and has no reliance on contemporary mathematics at all, for to do so would introduce errors leading to infinities and inconsistencies all over the place, as presently happens in physics. Because it is derived from a single indefeasible principle it is immune to Godel incompleteness (Godel confined his arguments to formal systems of axioms and the laws of thought). Maybe that will a subject for next year's contest.

              Best wishes

              Stephen

                Dear Stephen,

                Thanks for rating my essay and I too do so.

                Best wishes,

                Sreenath

                Dear Sreenath Garu,.

                Thank you for your post on my essay

                I did not rate your essay earlier. I am very much in need of Good ratings. People are down rating me! Congratulations! Now I gave 9 to you. Earlier your score is 3.9 with 29 ratings, now it jumped to 4.0 with 30 ratings. Please give me your e mail ID, I will send some my books published in Germany.

                Best

                =snp

                snp.gupta@gmail.com

                  Dear Guptaji,

                  Thanks for rating my essay and I too have rated your essay with maximum honors.

                  All the best in the essay contest.

                  Sreenath

                  Dear Sreenath, To respond to your recent comment on my thread I made it a habit to rate an essay as soon as I read it. I usually gave scores of above 7 but did not keep a record of what I rated yours a few weeks ago.

                  I wish you all success in the contest, Vladimir