Dear Akinbo,

thank you for your compliments and interest. Just a brief response to your main point, we'll continue later after I will have read your contribution.

If you make space emerging from pure topology, there is no space separator, as each system has no volume. All these notions have meaning in a pre-existing space. If Stephen Hawking says that before the birth of the universe there was no space and time, everybody agrees. If he says that the universe was so small to be comparable with a pin point, nobody asks "where" the pin was. Well, here it is the same. If space can be curved, nobody contests that such curved space must be inside another flat one. Here there is no space to start with, space is emerging. Reducing space to an emergent entity arising from quantum systems in interaction is a way to reduce dramatically the starting ingredients of quantum field theory. From the Occam's razor point of view this is very good. The continuity of states of quantum theory restores the continuous symmetries starting from the discrete ones, but only in the relativistic limit of small momenta. At the Planck scale everything looks quite blurred and oscillating, and relativistic covariance breaks down.

My best regards

Mauro

Dear Domenico

thank you very much for your compliments. Just a temporary fast reply for now (I just came back from a conference in Nottingham). I also want to read the interesting contributions from the other submitters.

What the automaton does is to evolve an input state, exactly as quantum field theory does. In order to understand what we see we need also the input state: this is a separate problem. I have some ideas in mind, but it would be too long to discuss them here. Curvature of space will be at a higher level of emergence, whence there will be also gravity in the theory. Here the discrete world is flat, and gravity should emerge as a pure quantum effect (see Sakarov, Jacobson, Verlinde).

Definitely you can have entanglement between the spinors of particles here. In the relativistic regime narrowband states here behave exactly like usual Fermions. I will post some movies on this web site soon.

Until next

Thank you again,

My best regards

Mauro

I don't dispute the idea that it might be a good idea to derive relativity from something more fundamental. I am simply querying how this is compatible with D'Ariano's explicitly operational philosophy.

Dear Prof D'Ariano,

While you focus on predictions, as opposed to "what is out there as it is", you postulate a group of agents with "buttons to push". I've yet to see an argument for "information only" reality that did not, at some level, rely upon objective reality. Even though you may consider throwing away the buttons in the end it appears impossible to get software off the ground without hardware at some level. So, beginning with real physical buttons, you finally abstract your way to a mathematical 'group'. This is the nature of abstraction, but it did not occur without physical buttons [or your physical brain]. Only by assuming the Platonic nature of math as existing in a separate realm or reality does this seem relevant, and then one must show how to derive physical reality from mathematical abstractions. Belief in the Platonic reality of math seems no different from any other religious belief in unseen things -- simply a product of the imagination. Even your 'feedback' seems to require a medium.

I would also point out that, while the utility of quantum field theory is unquestionable, the assumption of the 'reality' of 'electron fields' and 'neutrino fields' is quite a large assumption. There are other approaches to particle physics that do not assume a 'field per particle'.

And, as Gordon Watson implies above, the key to your whole approach seems to rely on "Bell's theory coming to help us." I wonder if, had Bell never lived, is there ANY other argument by which physical experiments would "prove" non-locality (which I think is really the basis of your attack on local reality). I don't think there is. I have looked at Gordon's first arguments that Bell made an error, and do not find a problem with Gordon's logic. [I haven't had time to analyze his main arguments.] I would hope that you and perhaps Matt Leifer would look at Gordon's attack on Bell's logic. He does not start off with a topological argument as did Joy.

As for teleporting humans, I failed to see how you can capture both position and momentum, let alone the phase of the wave function, and restore each 'particle' to its original state. I view the phase as critical. As Anton Lorenz asked above, how will you "entangle" the atoms, which were almost certainly entangled in the original human? In other words, this fictitious argument is not very convincing.

I will not repeat the arguments about relativity made by earlier commenters, but I am very interested in your answers to them.

I recall being extremely impressed by your previous FQXi essay. This essay is not very convincing, except to those already convinced, which, judging by your high score, are many. No one can argue that it is not important to focus "on what we observe and not on what we believe is out there", but you have not given us any thing to 'observe' except a web of relations based on questionable assumptions. Somehow, kicking a hard rock, or jumping off a tall building still seems much more objectively "real" to me than your mathematical 'groups' or other abstract 'web' of interactions from which 'space-time' supposedly emerges.

Looking forward to your response,

With best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Giacomo and Domenico

    Following the discussion above of gravity as a gradient optical medium:

    I forgot to add this interesting reference from my (BU) paper about an Italian gradient index of refraction experiment, demonstrating the Hamiltonian Analogy between light and gravity. In this paper it is mentioned that a renown Italian physicist said the H.A. goes back to an idea to Al-Hassan Ibn Al-Haytham. Any information about that connection would be appreciated as I am a fan of Ibn Al-Haythm.

    Ambrosini, D., et al, Bouncing Light Beams and the Hamiltonian Analogy Eur. Journal of Physics. 18 (1997) 284-289

    Best wishes

    Vladimir

    Dr. D'Ariano,

    Hi. I enjoyed reading your essay and think your type of reasoning where you try to develop "subroutines" for the universe that "stringently derive from few very general principles" is exactly the type of minimum assumption, start-with-the-basics type reasoning that I wish more physicists and philosophers would use. That's what I advocate in my essay as well. I do have some comments and questions but don't want these to distract from my overall very favorable impression of your essay. The comments are:

    1. In regard to holism:

    A. I completely agree. My view is that a thing exists if it's a grouping defining what is contained within. Based on this, a cloud, for example, is not just the component water molecules inside the cloud. Each of these molecules exists on its own, but the grouping of them all together creates an entirely new existent state called the cloud. So, the cloud as a whole and the component water molecules are different existent states. Because of this, the properties of the cloud are not necessarily the sum of the properties of the component water molecules. This is as you said for the holism idea.

    B. I think that our universe must have some kind of a most fundamental existent state as its foundation. Whether this is called an it, a bit, a particle, a quantum field, etc. doesn't matter. They're all just different names for an existent state. Also, the most fundamental existent state would have no subunits and no component parts (otherwise, it wouldn't be the most fundamental existent state). In this case, I think the properties of the whole (holism) are the same as the properties of the parts (reductionism) because there is only one part.

    2. In my thinking, I don't distinguish between "physical", "material" objects and "immaterial support", "abstract" states. "Physical" and "abstract" are just words for existent states existing outside the mind and inside the mind, respectively. Even the "immaterial support" quantum systems and their probability distributions that you mention are existent states in that they are embodied in or derived from existent states. Also, if they didn't exist, why are we talking about them? So, I think it's more useful to focus on the idea that there's an existent state at the heart of our universe, and whether this state is called a quantum system, probability distribution, physical object, etc. doesn't matter; instead, we should try to derive a physical theory from the properties of this existent state. And, you did this with your qubit idea. This type of reasoning is why I like your essay.

    3. In regard to objects:

    A. You mention on page 5 that "an object must be located in space and time", which seems to imply that different objects have different locations in space and time. This then seems to answer the question raised by the Theseus' ship and teleportation paradoxes. The copied ship and person are not the same objects as the originals. They exist in different spatial locations and times. Also, the statement on page 6 that "matter is everywhere the same" isn't quite accurate, I think. A particle of matter may have the same properties in all locations, but if two seemingly identical particles exist in different spatial locations and times, then they're still different objects. Or, I'd prefer to say that they're two different existent states. Every existent state exists within a certain domain (location).

    B. Also, about the phrase "an object must be located in space and time", I think that the existence of the most fundamental of existent states/objects is what creates space. That is, space is just a collection of existent states/objects, each of which would then specify a location within this space.

    Anyways, very good essay. Thanks!

    Roger Granet

      Dear Giakomo,

      You are a master as a lector and writer!

      You will be surprised perhaps but I am seriously thinking that holy fathers had burned heretics not in vain! I find very simple justification to it. When some stupid was killed, others have sighed with relief - the Glory of the Lord, now we got rid of malicious person!

      When they killed a talented thinker (which was more often), he consoled himself before death - Glory to Lord I will rid of the stupids forever!

      It will be pleasure to fight with you in open discussion, although I am very afraid it will be dialogue blind with the dumb. Anyway please just try read my history. I have smallest hope: after reading, you will go to nearest Church to pray for sins, I mean spoiling of future of your young students!

      Sincerely,

      George

      ESSAY

        Dear Giacomo,

        Nicely written essay, which was very comprehensible, easy to read and relevant. Interesting approach too.

        All the best,

        Antony

          Dear Professor D'Ariano,

          very interesting and well-written essay. I must read it again.

          I agree with in particular about the concept of a 'state'. So, as Pauli wrote it on a letter to Heisenberg: only boring agreement.

          Maybe one point is different: My knowledge of differential topology of 4-manifolds enforces me to chekc whether quantum mechanics could be have a geometric root.

          If you like please look into my essay.

          Best wishes

          Torsten

            Dear Giacomo,

            This is one of the better essay in the lot. The particle as an eigenstate of the field is the operational aspect of the field that emerges in measurement. The field is the deeper underlying aspect of the universe, but this is something which exists everywhere even if locally defined by Wightman causality conditions --- equal time commutators etc.

            I think the discrete aspect to spacetime emerges under certain types of measurements. The long baseline observations of different wavelengths of light from burstars billions of light years away have found no dispersion predicted from granular ideas about spacetime. I do think though that spacetime has what might be called an internal structure, substructures that obey certain cobordisms as with Thurston's work in 3-dim and the results of Donaldson and others with 4-dim, that have the content of particle physics or what we might call a bit or qubit. I think whether spacetime exhibits this sort of granular or qubit-ish structure or not is a matter of a type of duality.

            Cheers LC

              Dear Cristi

              Thank you for your encouragement. You share my opinion that Quantum Theory is too rigid to be changeable just a little, whereas General Relativity is more flexible to changes, e.g. depending on the physical scale. Let me distinguish between Quantum Theory and Quantum Mechanics, the former being the theory of abstract systems (states, observables, transformations, in terms of Hilbert spaces and operator algebra), the latter containing the "mechanics" (i. e. the explicit operator form of the momentum, the particle Hamiltonian, quantization rules, etc.). The "mechanics" is also more flexible to changes, as for GR. In a sense this flexibility is almost a tautology, since Quantum Theory is an abstract theory of systems, hence more general and fundamental, holding for any kind of physics, a sort of "logic" (von Neuman, Mackey and Varadarajan were the first ones to think of it in this way). The "mechanics" and the GR, instead, may have a more restricted validity, e.g. to a physical scale ranging from Fermi (or probably larger) to the galactic one. And I believe that they are both emergent from a more fundamental theory at a tiny Planck scale. What I showed in my joint paper with Paolo Perinotti is that for SR and for the "mechanics" such emergence can be indeed achieved, and, astonishingly, from very basic principles. This is the way of combining the theories that you are mentioning. And SR must have a limited validity, for small momenta (small here means still huge, much larger of those of UHECR's). At a scale approaching the Planck one one start having a space-time that is really quantum, with coarse-grained events, events that delocalize depending on the boost (the relative locality of Giovanni Amelino Camelia and Smolin), and deformed Lorentz transformations, or dispersive-Lorentz (i.e. that depend on the wave-vector).

              Thank you again for stimulating this discussion.

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Matthew,

              Thank you very much for your interesting and seriously provoking comments. It is always exciting to discuss with you, since you are always touching interesting points at the basis of the full framework and of the way of looking at things.

              Why the quantum automata theory is a continuation of my work on QT with Giulio Chiribella and Paolo Perinotti? Simply because the starting point is exactly QT, to which I add simple principles of unitariety, locality, homogeneity, and isotropy. Therefore, to the original six informational axioms I'm just adding these new simple ones (unitariety is reversibility).

              The philosophical schizophrenia is indeed only apparent. You can understand how complete consistence is recovered based on the following main three points:

              * My operationalism differs from that of Bridgman. Let me call it "informationalism", the basis of the Pavia axiomatization of QT. Beware that my operationalism may currently differ slightly from that of my young coauthors--though I was the one responsible of corrupting them.

              * I am not against onthologies, but only against naïve ones;

              * SR is operational. But, operationally, the relativity principle is not logically mandatory. On the top of this, GR is no longer operational.

              Let's now analyze point by point.

              *My operationalism differs from that of Bridgman*

              Bridgman was indeed largely influenced by Einstein's SR, and when he started operationalism he was too ahed of his times, and because of this he burnt too fast the whole philosophy, becoming himself responsible of a sudden decline of his own ideas. As his conceptualization gained acceptance at the beginning, and became shaped into a general philosophical doctrine (becoming very influential outside physicists, e.g. in psychology) operationalism started to be regarded as an old-fashioned extreme position, well before it could express its full potential. The method went so far as to become a new extreme "theory of meaning", stating that every concept has to be identified with a set of operations-a protocol. Surely this was not Bridgman's intent, who was primarily interested at articulating the scientific method from a first-person physicist point of view. However, the operationalist approach weakened, and some scientists and philosophers of science came to dislike it. Another strong case against operationalism was that of another of its advocates, Ernst Mach, who got the extreme position of refusing anything else was not just a description of the same observations, denying any value of a description in terms of new ontologies. This led him to his stubborn refusal of the idea of atom and his consequent opposition to the new atomic theory of Ludwig Boltzmann. With the atom soon becoming the greatest paradigm-shift in science, the Mach's obstinate opinion casted a dark shadow on operationalism, putting many physicists on the side of the realist Einstein in his long debate with the operationalist Bohr. We should remember that Einstein himself started as an admirer of Mach, and was operationalist at the beginning of the theory of relativity (the relativity of simultaneity is indeed based on a notion of time corresponding to a precise synchronization protocol of clocks), but years later, when he laid down his equations of general relativity, he betrayed his original operationalism.

              My operationalism differs substantially from that of Bridgman, in the sense that what really matters to me is the distinction between the notions that have the "objectivity status" (these are the experimental data, the preparation of the experimental set-ups, the data-reading protocols) and those that, instead, are only part of our theoretical description, and, as such, are not required to have an operational definition in terms of a protocol. This is the case e. g. of the notion of "atom", or that of "particle": their are useful and precisely defined physical objects, but they are not truly operational in all respects. They are useful onthologies, practically quite concrete in the domain of energies and momenta of contemporary physics, however, they are only temporary. As such, ultimately they may emerge from more fundamental theoretical notions, e.g. Gaussian wave-packets of qubit-states at a tiny Planck scale.

              (CONTINUES)

              (CONTINUATION FROM ABOVE POST)

              Let's analyze my personal "operational" philosophy when applied to the framework of the Pavia derivation of QT. The fundamental notion of the entire framework is that of "test", which is a collection of outcomes, and is represented by a box with wires--"the systems". The outcomes have the objectivity status: a deterministic outcome can be the simple fact that the box is a mirror, or a laser on the optical table. However, the wires--"the systems"--are only partially operational, they are mostly theoretical notions. For example, we put a laser in front of a detector, and the wire here represents the laser beam. It is true that the laser beam can be "seen" in a smoky air, and we can definitely "align" the two boxes by a suitable protocol. But, at the very end, when we represent the wire connecting the "preparation" (laser) with the "observation" (detector), we say that it represents the traveling "photon", and, as such, we cannot "see" it. Such a system is defined operationally only in part, and, indeed, it is mostly a theoretical notion. It is our way of causally connecting the two objective events "laser-on" and "detector-click". The same can be said of the "field mode". Both kinds of systems are the support of the "information", the register where information is written and read. Informationalism coincides with operationalism as long as information means classical data, "outcomes". "States" are preparation protocols (probabilistic equivalence class of them, to be precise), and, as such, they are operational notions. The same applies to "effects" and " transformations". But it is not the same for the "systems". Systems are theoretical notions, and, as such, their specific instance is theory-dependent, e.g. they can be classical bits, particles, field-modes. When we interpret them as causal connections between objective events, they become theoretical notions, since, at least, we need to restrict to causal theories. And, when interpreted as causal connections, they are "subjective", and this subjectivity reconciles my notion of causality with the Humean one.

              Thus, in conclusion, "informationalism" is not equivalent to "operationalism" a la Bridgman.

              *I am not against onthologies, but only against naïve ones*

              As I wrote in my essay, I consider onthologies as powerful ways of thinking, tools for analyzing mechanisms visually and efficiently. But they are only tools, temporary tools subjected to the evolution of theory. They do not "actually exist" as such out there. They are not the real objects casting the "shadows" that we see.

              Is it the Planck scale a new ontology? It will become a full ontology when we will clearly understand the whole physics at that scale. Consider for example the existence of mechanisms, as the "relative locality" of Amelino-Camelia and Smolin, where events delocalize depending on the reference frame. The more closely you look at "reality" the more it becomes "blurred". It is not a veiled reality. It is space-time that emerges in this way from quantum systems in interaction. There is no "empty space" filling the gaps between the denumerable entities. Space as we imagine in the current physics is an ontology that must be changed. Space is more as a blurred quantum-digital screen, which gets a huge resolution when you'll look at it from far apart.

              *SR is operational. But, operationally, the relativity principle is not logically mandatory. On the top of this, GR is no longer operational*

              As was shown by Ignatowski in 1910, Lorentz transformations can be derived from the simple requirements of linearity, symmetry between any two observers, and the Galileo's principle, the latter including homogeneity and isotropy of space and time. Einstein in his more mature derivation of SR used the Galileo principle, applying it also to electromagnetism. The impression that we got from this derivation is that such a fundamental principle is essentially indispensable to do science, that we cannot even state a physical law if it cannot express it in a way that is frame independent. This is not logically necessary. The physical law can be stated in a preferred frame if we know how to change it when changing the frame. Indeed this is what happens in practice, since we cannot avoid using the frame of fixed stars as a reference inertial frame. So, operationalism has not much to do with the relativity principle as such: SR is mostly based on the no-preferred-frame credo. What is truly operational are the Einstein's clock-synchronization protocol and the use of synchronized clocks to establish a full coordinate system by sending light back and forth between events. But such a protocol is strictly classical. In a Planck world you need quantum clocks, you need to send signals of quantum nature, which spread and have intrinsic imprecision.

              Just a final comment on GR. The bending of space due to mass is a purely theoretical ingredient needed to mimic gravity: it is no longer just the equivalence principle. As such, GR has no longer an operational basis. Einstein admitted that, and stated that for a formal system to qualify as a physical theory it was "not necessary to demand that all of its assertions can be independently interpreted and 'tested' "operationally" [See "Operationalism on Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy"]. Then, allow me to say that the "bendable" space of Einstein is not more ontic than the emerging space of the Planck scale: it is just classical.

              (CONTINUES)

              (CONTINUATION FROM THE ABOVE POST)

              I am aware that a thorough discussion will need much more space, and I'll be happy to respond to your next feedback. We have here a full conceptual framework in evolution, and this can give rise to apparent schizophrenias. To conclude: I'm an "informationalist": what exactly this means can be roughly inferred from what I said above, but it would need a much longer piece of writing to state it in a way that can confront most of the many possible questions.

              It is always a pleasure to discuss with you

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Manuel

              Thank you for your interest and form kindly rating my essay.

              I'm curious about Bell's superdeterminism, and I will read and rate your essay. I imagine that, however, it would be not possible to experiment it. If I understand what it is, it is a kind of metaphysical assumption. But I need to read your essay before jumping to conclusions.

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Joe,

              It seems to me that you are not a realist, and I'm not sure if your are making jokes about the realist point of view, or about Durr.

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Gordon,

              Clearly if the Bell theorem would be refuted, it would not be a theorem anymore. Here we are discussing about its interpretation. However, about this, let's judge people from outside.

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Satyavarapu

              Compliments for the positive feedback that you got.

              I will take a look at your essay.

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Vladimir

              Thank you for your really nice compliments.

              I'm curious about your BU. However, I can tell you that only the BCC works for spinors: it is the only lattice compatible with unitariety for a C^2 field. And this is really striking!

              My best regards

              Mauro

              Dear Hoang

              Thank you for your post, though I have some difficulties in following your line of thought.

              My best regards

              Mauro