Hi Jonathan,

You must really be fun to be with online. I enjoyed your replies on my blog as well as here. Those questions were meant to focus on the subject of the essay contest. I have received varied replies. Some felt the way I framed the post was rude so I stopped. It was just meant to tickle our brains on what Wheeler meant by saying information underlies everything. I have got replies that there can be superposition between existence/non-existence, some have said they don't know what 'elicit' means even when Wheeler used the term. Anyway, on second thought I think like you suggested I would stop going to work from that day henceforth and enjoy my million dollars!

Best regards,

Akinbo

Then regarding your essay which I am scoring 7 immediately after this,

1) What are those atoms of space that do the computing which Gerard't Hooft told you to discountenance? You may have been misled from winning a Nobel prize, so think again :).

2) What can separate those atoms of space since space can no longer be what will separate itself into discreteness?

3) Can you call a dance a dance without dancers? I know only of music without dancers, not a dance without anybody dancing.

4) While your cat can be half-dead or half-alive, can it be half-existing and half-non existing? If it can kindly breed the kittens because I am ready to buy if you will sell!

All the best wishes coming your way

Hello Jonathan,

I enjoyed your essay, especially your development of the dance and dancer theme, moreover, I like your conclusions. You say:

"Perhaps instead of asking 'It from Bit or Bit from It?' we need to see reality as 'It from Bit and then Bit from It?,' which allows it to be a dance, an interplay, or a cyclical phenomena, rather than a simple relation.".

I agree completely, but then I come to the same conclusion via a different route, one where the nature of consciousness, thought and the cosmos are redefined in terms where the nature of information is related to the mechanics of observation; and where the mechanics of observation allow us to differentiate between indication and information.

Thank you for your most interesting essay, and good luck.

Zoran.

    Thank you greatly Zoran,

    I appreciate your kind remarks, and that my treatment of the topic resonates with you. Your essay is already on my list, and I actually glanced at it just yesterday. It looks quite interesting, and it appears that my findings are largely compatible with yours. I wish you good luck also.

    Have Fun,

    Jonathan

    Your answers are:

    4) - I don't have a cat.

    3) - If you gaze at a fog you will see it is not just a diffuse mass, but is in fact engaged in a flickering, fluttering, dance at all times - that pulsates with the slightest vibration. The same might be seen to happen for pure energy devoid of substantial mass (i.e. - in the massless regime near Planck scale).

    2) - Call it what you will; emptiness it is.

    1) - There is a figure called the 0-brane. Following the construction in analogy to the spheres used by Greene in "Elegant Universe" the 0-brane is actually two points bracketing a location in space, but it is usually seen to be a point like object that holds an instant of time, the instanton. This is the minimal case.

    To explain; even a point in space is assumed to have duration, but a point in spacetime is a pure fiction as it has no extent in either space or time, and thus does not actually exist. Only things possessing duration can exist within time, or said differently they must possess a parcel of time to exist at all.

    Have Fun,

    Jonathan

    Hi Jonathan,

    I interpret your answers as follows:

    4) I don't have a cat means you have a cat but it is not existing. :)

    3) Probably energy can be the dancer?

    2) If what separates two things and not extension (space), then they are continuous and not separated.

    1) There are a lot of fancy names like 0-brane, quantum pixel, instanton, etc. Why everybody must name same idea differently is an ego trip. Why not retain the initial term used by the Pythagoreans, used by Leibniz even if its characteristics or properties are refined as our knowledge increases.

    When you say, "0-brane is actually two points bracketing a location in space", what is a location? Is a location not a discrete expression of space/position? And if it is and holds an instant of time or it is a point in space with duration is that still not a monad? Then what is a bracket? Will that not be a composite geometrical object made of points?

    I will check Kea's papers and see what she is offering.

    All the best.

    Akinbo

    Dear Jonathan -

    First I'd like to congratulate you on your highly engaging prose. You've taken great care to express your views cogently, and this makes your far-reaching message very forceful and significant.

    You state: 'In considering the question "It from Bit, or Bit from It?" one must always ask 'With respect to what?''

    Indeed, Physics needs to revise all its assumptions before it can consider foundational questions. It and Bit might seem to have set identities to those who consider them through a prism of unquestioned assumptions - but in reality, as you say, they are interchangeable.

    In my essay, I describe It and Bit as 'correlated' by evolution. You say: 'Though we imagine there must always be an 'It' if information about an object or 'Bit' is detected, this is actually a learned behavior - but it is one acquired very early in our development.'

    I would add - ' ... and, even before - over the course of our evolution.'

    Your description of childhood habituation is very pertinent, and the process-like nature of Chinese and Native American languages provides a fascinating insight. I show how the 'process' begins with the appearance of life on the planet: Ultimately, 'matter' is simply very ancient information, supported by appropriate biological configurations. The entire system is continually shifting.

    When you say - 'Maybe there is something unifying 'It' and 'Bit' we need to examine', it jumps out at me that this can only be the evolving observer. It wasn't long ago that evolution entered into human consciousness: Pre-Darwin, the order of things was entirely created by God. But to deny or ignore evolution in our interpretation of the physical world is no longer possible: It places physics in a mystical position - for we are indeed subjective to the Cosmos, our view at any given time is partial, and shifting - and therefore we cannot see the 'whole thing', and we must also somehow configure continuous change into all our conclusions and 'facts'.

    In this broader perspective, the definition of It and Bit clearly must be expanded to something more than Wheeler intended. They are involved in a 'cosmic dance', as you say (a dance choreographed by evolution, I add). The presence of mathematics in the cosmos represents how intimately invested we are in the field of observation.

    I don't want to recap my essay here; these few words are really about you, and how thoroughly interesting it was for me to read your essay and see the many similarities in our 'dance steps'. This was particularly evident to me in your concluding remarks.

    Of course, I've rated your work highly - and I hope you'll soon read my rendition of the 'ancient tale', and give me your impressions.

    I wish you the best of luck in the competition,

    John.

      Hi Jonathan,

      I replied to your post regarding my essay and hope you will visit it. I found your essay deep and thought provoking.

        Thank you very much Gene!

        I do appreciate the kind remarks, and that my essay made you think. That was the desired effect. I shall look on your page to see how you replied shortly.

        All the Best,

        Jonathan

        Thanks greatly John!

        Your insights and praise are appreciated. I guess I'll have to take a look at your essay, and see what you have cooking. And I agree; the assumptions we need to change or challenge may not be the obvious ones, so we must call virtually all our assumptions into question. That is pretty much the approach I took in last year's essay. I really like your statement about the evolving observer, and that has links into some of my other work in progress. Are you familiar with The Reflexive Universe by Arthur M. Young? He elaborately explains why the evolution of consciousness and of the universe follow the same pattern.

        I will have to look for more links between our work, when I read your essay.

        All the Best,

        Jonathan

        Dear Jonathan and All,

        You are right about the intertwined nature of the it and bit.

        I am attaching the iDNASeries.bmp that I have envisioned and how it shows the DNA structure in its sequence.

        I give you all a cosmological iSeries which spans the entire numerical spectrum from -infinity through 0 to +infinity and the simple principle underlying it is sum of any two consecutive numbers is the next number in the series. 0 is the base seed and i can be any seed between 0 and infinity.

        iSeries always yields two sub semi series, each of which has 0 as a base seed and 2i as the first seed.

        One of the sub series is always defined by the equation

        Sn = 2 * Sn-1 + Sigma (i=2 to n) Sn-i

        where S0 = 0 and S1 = 2 * i

        the second sub series is always defined by the equation

        Sn = 3 * Sn-1 -Sn-2

        where S0 = 0 and S1 = 2 * i

        Division of consecutive numbers in each of these subseries always eventually converges on 2.168 which is the Square of 1.618.

        Union of these series always yields another series which is just a new iSeries of a 2i first seed and can be defined by the universal equation

        Sn = Sn-1 + Sn-2

        where S0 = 0 and S1 = 2*i

        Division of consecutive numbers in the merged series always eventually converges on 1.618 which happens to be the golden ratio "Phi".

        Fibonacci series is just a subset of the iSeries where the first seed or S1 =1.

        Examples

        starting iSeries governed by Sn = Sn-1 + Sn-2

        where i = 0.5, S0 = 0 and S1 = 0.5

        -27.5 17 -10.5 6.5 -4 2.5 -1.5 1 -.5 .5 0 .5 .5 1 1.5 2.5 4 6.5 10.5 17 27.5

        Sub series governed by Sn = 2 * Sn-1 + Sigma (i=2 to n) Sn-i

        where S0 = 0 and S1 = 2i = 1

        0 1 2 5 13 34 ...

        Sub series governed by Sn = 3 * Sn-1 - Sn-2

        where S0 = 0 and S1 = 2i = 1

        0 1 3 8 21 55 ...

        Merged series governed by Sn = Sn-1 + Sn-2 where S0 = 0 and S1 = 2i = 1

        0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 ...... (Fibonacci series is a subset of iSeries)

        The above equations hold true for any value of i.

        Its interesting to see the singularity is in the base seed of zero and how it is all pervasive all through out the structure. I have been telling that I is that nothing which dwells in everything and this DNA structure seems to prove that notion. Singularity is right with in the duality. Absolute is right with in the relativity. This proves that both of these states are interconnected and are the source of life.

        Love,

        Sridattadev.Attachment #1: 2_iDNASeries.bmp

          Thank you greatly Sridattadev.

          I find wisdom in your words, and I thank you for taking the time to read through my essay and comment. The idea that I is the nothing in everything, and it is therefore infinite, is quite profound. I shall comment further after taking some time to look through and work with your formula, to see what comes out.

          Kind Regards,

          Jonathan

          Hello Jonathan

          Richard Feynman in his Nobel Acceptance Speech (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1965/feynman-lecture.html)

          said: "It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the relationship. And example of this is the Schrodinger equation and the Heisenberg formulation of quantum mechanics. I don't know why that is - it remains a mystery, but it was something I learned from experience. There is always another way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what the reason for this is. I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature."

          I too believe in the simplicity of nature, and I am glad that Richard Feynman, a Nobel-winning famous physicist, also believe in the same thing I do, but I had come to my belief long before I knew about that particular statement.

          The belief that "Nature is simple" is however being expressed differently in my essay "Analogical Engine" linked to http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1865 .

          Specifically though, I said "Planck constant is the Mother of All Dualities" and I put it schematically as: wave-particle ~ quantum-classical ~ gene-protein ~ analogy- reasoning ~ linear-nonlinear ~ connected-notconnected ~ computable-notcomputable ~ mind-body ~ Bit-It ~ variation-selection ~ freedom-determinism ... and so on.

          Taken two at a time, it can be read as "what quantum is to classical" is similar to (~) "what wave is to particle." You can choose any two from among the multitudes that can be found in our discourses.

          I could have put Schrodinger wave ontology-Heisenberg particle ontology duality in the list had it comes to my mind!

          Since "Nature is Analogical", we are free to probe nature in so many different ways. And you have touched some corners of it.

          Best luck,

          Than Tin

            Thank You Than!

            I will look at the Feynman article, and I appreciate your leaving that wonderful excerpt. I already had it in mind to write a comment to Akinbo, in response to his remark above, that when there are multiple theories or methods that give the same result; it is compelling evidence that people are on to something, and that the result has some significance. Mr. Feynman's comment expresses a similar sentiment eloquently, and explores a piece of the puzzle I hadn't considered. The insight that this is evidence of nature's simplicity is priceless!

            You have my gratitude, for sharing that here. I shall look at your essay shortly.

            Have Fun,

            Jonathan

            Thanks for stopping by Yuri!

            I appreciate the kind regard as well.

            Have Fun!

            Jonathan

            For the delight of all..

            I give you the whole paragraph from Feynman's lecture that Than excerpted above.

            Jonathan

            "I would like to interrupt here to make a remark. The fact that electrodynamics can be written in so many ways - the differential equations of Maxwell, various minimum principles with fields, minimum principles without fields, all different kinds of ways, was something I knew, but I have never understood. It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but, with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the relationship. An example of that is the Schrödinger equation and the Heisenberg formulation of quantum mechanics. I don't know why this is - it remains a mystery, but it was something I learned from experience. There is always another way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what the reason for this is. I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature. A thing like the inverse square law is just right to be represented by the solution of Poisson's equation, which, therefore, is a very different way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what it means, that nature chooses these curious forms, but maybe that is a way of defining simplicity. Perhaps a thing is simple if you can describe it fully in several different ways without immediately knowing that you are describing the same thing."

            Enjoy!

            Hello Jonathan,

            Big thanks for the very valuable for me to comment and an invitation to read your essay. Yes, indeed, we are going to close on close paths in the same spirit in the basic strategy of Descartes's method of doubt.

            I note to myself seen me your important tetrad "points" of thinking about the way to the fundamental structure of reality and the phenomenon of information and its nature:

            «Perhaps to catch the universe as form and information at play, we need to see reality as a play. Information as author, forces as director, and objects as actors may be the metaphor we seek. A case can be made, that information is a template for substantial forms, and that objects are a collection of forms (sub-atomic particles, atoms ...) comprised mainly of information and energy - as the prima materia - without which there would be no substance. »

            A great metaphor! I use the metaphor of a "network" to catch the "Proteus of nature" (matter) with a hint of goddess forms - Eydotei.

            «Patterns of form and formation dance on the stage of the universe, and the dance unfolds for all to behold, but there are always choices of what to focus upon.»

            Yes, it is "focusing" - a key concept in the way of grasping the nature of the information and the basic structure of the being (original form) .

            «Actors on the Stage need Direction»

            "Direction" - the second most important concept. I use a "vector" (in Latin, "bearing", he "who is" and "carrier"). And then move on to the concept of "vector of consciousness" (connecting the Cartesian "res cogitans» and «res extensa» t hrough the "state vector" of physics)

            «The reader is reminded that in the 'analog vs. digital 'debate; the author took a stand that the universe is decidedly both analog and digital, if we consider all pertinent aspects of reality. »

            I totally agree.

            «That is; there is a deficiency to a strictly binary analogy, which can only be overcome by perceiving reality as ternary and the unifying quality as fluid.»

            I totally agree. So I build the fundamental generating structure based on the logic of the triunity, developing the ideas of dialectics of Cusa (coincidence of opposites), and Hegel (Hegelian triad), the ideas of Plato (the Platonic solids), and Kant - the idea of a conceptual-figure synthesis.

            «There is always an interplay between information becoming stuff, and stuff becoming information, but this takes place on various levels at once.»

            I totally agree.

            «Just as our universe clearly displays both Quantum and Classical behaviors and attributes, we also reside in a universe where neither" It from Bit "nor" Bit from It "can be ruled out, as both aspects are clearly displayed.»

            I totally agree.

            «It appears that Plato was right, on some level, in positing the existence of archetypes of form which exist independent of material reality, because certain regularities of Math have a life of their own, and influence or shape the laws of Physics.»

            I totally agree. Moreover, it is necessary to see and draw the shape of the "First Law" in the spirit of Plato. The concept of "vector" is a good helper.

            «The principles and objects of Mathematics have a regularity of form that is independent of the method used to elucidate that form, and are therefore properly seen as discovered rather than invented.»

            I totally agree. We must look for the first forms of life-archetypes and draw them. Here Alexander Zenkin rights in the article "Science counterrevolution in mathematics":

            «The truth should be drawn with the help of the cognitive computer visualization technology and should be presented to" an unlimited circle "of spectators in the form of color-musical cognitive images of its immanent essence.» Http://www.ccas. ru/alexzen/papers/ng-02/contr_rev.htm

            «The progression of knowledge in Physics and the evolution of form in the Cosmos are both playful processes of discovery revealing the underlying archetypal information in a pre-determined range of possibilities there to be explored, and creating new ones. On some level, both the universe and human scientists learn what is real by exploring the extent of what is possible, and seeing what structures are the most useful and helpful for understanding or for creating something new. »

            I totally agree. The idea of "creationists" and "emergent" must be entered into the base of the physical world. It forces us to make "information" and "information revolution."

            «While form clearly exists in discrete units like sub-atomic particles, photons, atoms, and molecules, and some observable information is transmitted in a discrete spectrum, this can demonstrably arise from forces and interactions that display a continuous range of variability. This makes terms like 'It' and 'Bit' too confining to tell the whole story, because they presume that all of reality can be described and determined by discrete relations. As I stated in a previous essay; I think that both discrete and continuous aspects of reality must be simultaneously accepted as real, to understand the universe as it is.»

            It is extremely important conclusion. It is necessary to think the universe as a whole. "Opposites" (discrete and continuum) - at the bottom picture of the world (Universe).

            «If we allow that there can be a continuous flow between information giving rise to form and form giving rise to information, a clearer picture will emerge.»

            Totally agree, and this picture of physicists (and lyrics) to draw. As it drew Plato, Cusa, Hegel.

            «So it really is not about" It from Bit or Bit from It? "But more a matter of" What is coming out of 'It' into the realm of 'Bit,' and what is coming out of 'Bit' into the realm of 'It?' "In my view, Physics should admit the possibility for unobserved realities that serve to generate what is observed, but must focus primarily on what is in the realm of the observable. This means that ultimately; all we have to work with is information. In some sense; information is both the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.»

            I totally agree. It is in the spirit of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin ("The Phenomenon of Man). Moreover, the "grasp" the nature of information leads to the concept of "ontological (structural) memory» - memory of the Universe (Cosmos- "cosmic memory "). The concept "ontological memory" must enter the physical world as the core.

            «While it is quite clear that information of some nature does give rise to the universe of form, thus fulfilling Wheeler's vision of "It from Bit," this does not prevent "Bit from It" modalities from unfolding at the same time. So indeed they are both true outlooks, but the meaning of the story can only be seen by considering the interplay of the two - a Cosmic Dance.»

            The perfect conclusion! We physicists and poets should be one full of meaning, the picture of the world, as in the song:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3ho31QhjsY

            With best regards,

            Vladimir

              Wow!

              I am pleased and impressed that there are so many points of agreement in our work to enumerate. You embarrass me a little with your high praise Vladimir, and that I have not gotten to read your essay yet. So many people clamoring for attention on these forums! Given what you say above; I will likely give you a very high rating, once I have the chance to read your paper.

              Thanks for the gratifying comments.

              Have Fun!

              Jonathan