Alternative Models of Reality

[deleted]

John M,

I appreciate you using the letters M behind John. Avoiding confusion is more important than politeness. I am signing my posts because the login is not reliable. A distinction between Peter J and Peter M is certainly also recommendable.

I will not discuss with Richard Lewis because his terminology "Spacetime Waves" is considerably at variance with the notions I am using. I wonder if he seriously dealt with Michelson.

You asked: "Doesn't "The speed of light" refer to a measurement?"

I see c as a measurable spatial distance divided by the measurable within the same system time of flight and also as a basic constant that relates epsilon_0 and my_0.

You argued: "if your measuring device is traveling at the speed of light, all internal action is stopped, thus its clock is stopped, so it measures everything, even light going the other direction, as zero time."

Measuring the speed of light requires a known distance between the emitter at the moment of emission and the receiver at the moment of arrival. Yes, if the receiver does never receive the signal then there is neither a measurable distance nor a measurable time of flight. Infinity divided by infinity is undefined, not zero.

You added the question: Wouldn't "Only an external viewer"..."see them as approaching each other at 2c"?

You did almost get my point. I wrote: "The speed with which two wavefronts, that are propagating in opposite directions, increase their distance is 2c." In my understanding, the speed of light has nothing to do with any observer unless the notion observer means the receiver, and each of the both wavefronts in line belongs to a different receiver. Einstein's rather anthropic notion "observer" is unnecessary and should be avoided. The speed I referred to is a fiction. The propagation of the two light signals can be imagined but not be seen at all.

The limitation to c does only apply for the propagation of something real from one emitter to one belonging receiver.

One has to arbitrarily choose only a single frame of reference in space to which all other points must be related. That's why only relative positions in space are relevant. Michelson disproved the absolute space. See my endnotes.

Regards,

Eckard

Peter Morgan

PeterJ, do you have a link to your "I showed why mathematics can't yet model nature"? Perhaps you could indicate here whether we can have classes of approximate models, several examples of which I suppose we do have already (Newton, Maxwell, GR, QM, LEGO, Meccano, etc.), in which case I'll be happy enough not to care what you say about "perfect" models. Despite the mathematics of the paper I attached above, I'm no "mathematicist", useful engineering is good enough for me.

Nonlinearity has become awkward in QM since it became clear that the nonlinear schrodinger equation is problematic, very briefly put because of "unitarity". I wonder if it's clear to you how the kind of nonlinearity I introduce in the paper I attached above is careful to avoid that issue? I have a feeling that it may be obscure to someone not steeped in QFT, so I'd like to know. Thx. PeterWM.

[deleted]

I believe the solution to the "reality" problem is completely solvable via a combination of Thermodynamics and the properties of special relativity. I have formulated a physical theory which as an extension to GR, would make it completely compatible with Quantum Mechanics and then simultaneously provide a solution to every paradox with which I am familiar (superposition {see my topic/scope limited bit-from-it essay}, double slit, entanglement, mass, getting something from nothing, dark matter, dark energy, etc..). What's more, being a physical model of structure for our reality, it will make real testable predictions, such as the impending and inevitable big crunch.

Publishing my work is unfortunately quagmired by the fact that I still need to develop the complete mathematics before my institution would seem to support me in publishing anything. I'm not a mathematician and I seem to be surrounded by engineers with the 'shut up and calculate' mentality unfortunately, and without the theoretical math to back up my work it's clearly going nowhere any time soon. At the very least I feel I need to get these ideas out on the table for everyone to think about, with or without the mathematical basis nailed down. I just don't know how to get anything published on my own, at least in a place that anybody might actually read. Suggestions on how best to move forward are always welcome.

If anyone out there considers themselves an excellent mathematician and is open to some fresh ideas then please do contact me off line (Steve dot Coleman at jhuapl dot edu). I have an idea of how things work but really need someone with expertise in Thermodynamics, Maxwell's, and Einstein field equations, to help me build a software simulation model (I'm a software engineer by trade) to analyse and actually demonstrate that it all works correctly. The quantum world should exactly predict our observations such as the galactic rotation curves (aka dark matter) and excess redshift (aka dark energy) under this model. I don't see how it could do anything else but.

Steve Coleman

My apologies, FQXi somehow logged me out before I posted the above.

pjackson

Steve,

Not uncommon. I've proposed a 'slow down and think' era to replace 'shut up and calculate'. Your theory sounded as if it has commonalities with the model of discrete fields I've successfully developed in my last 3 essays here, but reading it I find it seems not to. I'm not sure how I missed your essay this year, I did my best but only managed abut 2/3rd! To save me checking a very long list, did you read and comment on mine?

May I also ask, if there were TWO pairs space buoys side by side, and before the ship passed by the string was cut. Would one set contract and one not? If both, then I assume all space also contracts, so the theory may seem to becomes paradoxical and non predictive.

In fact I find I disagree with the starting assumptions that; 1 Any 'body' can reach ~c, and 2, That anything can be 'measured' except by direct interaction. My essays construct the coherent logic of that if you wish to read them. Do give me your views.

Best wishes

Peter

Steve Coleman

Peter,

I love your proposal on the new era. To show my support I have downloaded your essay paper and will be spending time with it, to think. I would be interested to learn more about your discrete fields concept, but I'm sure they are independent concepts from my own.

You are correct in that the spacetime itself contracts, so what the buoys attached string is doing is quite inconsequential. I find no paradox here, and it does predict many things and in fact answers a lot of open questions from unexplained experimental evidence. I'll be writing a paper to address these issues in the near future, but for now I'm focusing on my paper for a proposed thermodynamic extension to GR. Solving the 'galactic rotation curve flatness' and 'excessive redshift of the expanding universe' gets my top priority for now. Entanglement, double-slit, and superposition will have to wait.

As for your disagreement 1), I anticipated that, and my addendum argument #1 addressed that exactly. True, no mass can go the speed of light, but the ship was just an analogy for a wave/photon, depending on what one is arguing. The ship was used just to better visualize yourself in a photons reference frame, nothing more.

For disagreement 2), I would contend that without external interaction you could still measure your own clock. A photons trip from point A to point B, no matter the distance, will take exactly zero time (assuming empty space) in its own reference frame. We as experimenters can never use the photons clock to carry out any experiment, so we never see or measure things from that perspective. That is exactly the point of my essay paper. Just because you can't do it, personally or experimentally, doesn't mean there is no effect in the photons own reference frame. There are some experiments that can only be performed in the human mind.

thanks for your comments.

Steve.

John Merryman

Tom,

I'm trying to find a little clarity. You seem intent on proving anything I say wrong. I don't really mind it, but it seems unproductive. In what circumstance doesn't greater volume mean greater surface area?

Regards,

John M

Thomas Ray

"In what circumstance doesn't greater volume mean greater surface area?"

That's easy to answer, isn't it, John? The hard question is why you're convinced it *couldn't* be true otherwise. Try the important questions for a change. You will thank yourself.

Best,

Tom

[deleted]

Peter,

This reminds me of an observation I made yesterday; For every thought, there is an equal and opposite thought. ;-)

We seem to be on opposite sides of this issue. I see space as foundational and time as emergent. As you are firmly set in your model and you have heard my arguments about time more than enough, I'll not belabor the issue, other than to give a plea for more respect for space;

Everyone wants to dismiss it as some abstraction, or emergent, or just a product of measurement, or action or some other such reason, yet look out at the sky at night! The distances involved, the volume manifest reduce entire galaxies and galaxy clusters to nothing more than smudges.

We think we explain it as all popping out of some hat less than 14 billion years ago, but as I keep pointing out, how can we say "space expands," yet retain a constant speed of light? Isn't "Space what you measure with a ruler?" If we are still going to denominate the distance between expanding points of reference in the constant of lightspeed, then that is only increased distance, not expanding space. The denominator is the unit of measure. What it is "denominated" in!! How hard is that to figure out?

You say it is only the frame, so could we have two frames, both holding dynamic realities, passing each other at the speed of light?

What about the space station in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey; It is a frame and it is not accelerating, so where does the centrifugal force causing the gravitational effect come from, if not because of the movement of that frame relative to some more elemental inertial space/unbounded frame?

No, space doesn't have anything we can really hold onto and focus on and we really like things that get our attention, but is that an issue with us, or with space?

Eckard,

I think you and I are on the same page here, but my brain gets tied in so many knots, trying to figure out what others are saying, what their assumptions and or models are, how they are interpreting me, etc, that it's wonder I can still think.

I see it as infinite, inertial space, with stuff moving about. Positive/negative, expanding/contracting. Most everything else is effect and aspect.

I wish they would change the logout until one actually logs out.

Regards,

John M

John Merryman

Tom,

I'm not convinced it couldn't, that's why I asked. If it isn't obvious, I am a fairly basic sort of person and tend to see the reasonable. While things are not always so simple, it is a fairly reliable assumption, but I am certainly capable of accepting there will always be a lot I don't know.

Regards,

John M

Eckard Blumschein

E. to John M,

Your entire post addressed me too. I reiterate my argument that the so called inertial frame is always arbitrarily chosen and excludes to simultaneously choose one more frame. This does not mean that the chosen frame is a priori a preferred one. Every choice is equally possible.

Accordingly, it seems to me not justified to imagine space like a sphere that can expand. I support your argument: "how can we say "space expands, yet retain a constant speed of light? Isn't space what you measure with a ruler?" Maybe, we are both too stupid as to understand the mainstream. However, I doubt this possibility because the theories that Tom failed to understandably defend did obviously arise from quite ordinary but questionable reasoning.

I reiterate my hope for revelations of embarrassing mistakes like in case of NSU in Germany.

Regards,

Eckard

John Merryman

Eckard,

It seems a fact of nature that crowds of people can get away with stuff that would not be tolerated, or at best laughed off, if it was just by one person. The feedback loops can created some powerful social weather systems, but eventually they cool and fade.

Regards,

John M

pjackson

John,

You'll see no-one has more respect for space than I by re-reading my last years essay!! You certainly need to read my posts more slowly to avoid jumping to assumptions that aren't there, and to derive the main point, which you didn't do.

Accepting space as 'real' and so 'distance' as a fundamental in no way conflicts with my highly falsified derivation of universal time. A close colleague of mine owns a company supplying weapon crystal oscillators. In your universe the oscillators would change speed if the missile is doing some 'different' speed (to the plane, air or hangar??) in which case the telemetry would be seriously compromised. The fact is that they DO NOT! The Hafele-Keating result has been falsified John. It WAS false, as Hafele himself said. (Basudeba reproduces a full explanation in his essay blog).

You said; "As you are firmly set in your model... ...I'll not belabor the issue, other than to give a plea for more respect for space;"

I've shown the 2nd assumption is wrong. So is the first. The model is evolving all the time entirely in line with empirical evidence. As I've sad before what I'm trying to do is to falsify it, i.e. to test all parts to destruction SCIENTIFICALLY! It's a little frustrating when people just come back and say their beliefs are different and think that's somehow the same. It isn't. Very VERY far from it.

I've cited endless empirical and epistemological evidence and derived consistent logic. I also study and analyse all apparently conflicting evidence offered. None has stood up. Just a touch of respect for that might be nice! i.e. comment on the actual evidence I offer instead of just repeating prior beliefs, which you wrongly accuse me of. You may feel you can ignore apparent evidence. I don't. I don't understand why that is dismissed. Am I wrong?

Two more interesting findings supporting discrete field ontology have just been published; Fists findings of 'apparent' superluminal motion, from NASA Mayer HST 2013 superluminal confirmation paper, and Fermi; MNRAS Paper confiming up to apparent 46c.

Also findings from the new VLBA of lensing in the ISM via refraction from moving plasma, exactly as the DFM predicted (see 2011 essay; '2020 vision').

Any comments on the important actual implications for science?

Peter

Thomas Ray

" ... there will always be a lot I don't know."

Is that quantity identical to what you can't know?

pjackson

Tom,

I can only agree, though I'd have expressed it differently. But then as you're also describing some key sections the DFM ontology I'm rather bound to.

Some significant evidence rather problematic for the alternative popular mainstream doctrine is now emerging. What's notable is that they're from NASA HST and Fermi data and in the most mainstream of journals. The descriptions are carefully termed as none of them yet have or address any coherent ontology recovering SR. You asked me for novel predictions and correspondence with observation. These are yet more.

The key links are in my post to John M above (Aug 31 string) but I re-post here with the third link;

First; findings of 'apparent' superluminal motion, from NASA Mayer HST 2013 superluminal confirmation paper, and Fermi; MNRAS Paper confirming up to apparent 46c.!! (see post to John for links, which won't re-post!)

Also findings from the new VLBA of lensing in the ISM via refraction from moving plasma, exactly as the DFM predicted (see 2011 essay; '2020 vision').Pushkarev et al, VLBA confirms lensing from ISM plasma refraction

Do tell me if further explanation of the findings is required.

Best wishes,

Peter

Thomas Ray

Thanks, Peter. I still fail to understand, though -- as we've discussed before -- how you can get continuous measurement functions from your discrete field model (DFM). I'm not saying it can't be done; however, it would have to be explained in strict mathematical terms to convince me. Even a reference to a theorem would help.

All best,

Tom

pjackson

Tom,

Try it geometrically as a so called 'toy' model. Follow the path of the charge orbital angular momentum forming the outer edge of the helix created by the torus translating on it's axis (all from a simple dipole, including the double helix!).

I've seen a lot of maths apparently for that but it's quite beyond mine!

Note the formula for waves demands motion and that for particles demands time to be frozen. Both are then valid for the translating toroid case, with uncertainty emerging from the NLS equation spread function (also then explained).

At the same time space time and gravity are simply quantized via the plasma ion gravitational and (high) EM coupling potentials. A plasma n=1 no spectroscopic signature is detectable (so it's "Dark") except kinetically (explaining the kinetic Sunyaev-Zeldovich effect, Interstellar Faraday Rotation, elliptical polarity (from lateral motion) and a host of other astronomical anomalies).

Does that help at all? (there also seemed to be some good valid maths in other essays, including recursive gauge theory, which I explain as ever higher order 'sample spaces' of the 'full orbits').

Anyone seen Zeeya?

Peter

John Merryman

Peter,

I certainly mean you no disrespect and am sorry if I misinterpreted you. I've spent the afternoon cutting down and up some large dead oak trees and dragging them halfway across the farm to serve as jumps. It's the sort of thing I do for a living and while it gives me a healthy respect for basic physics, it doesn't leave me alot in the way of energy to really process the more complex aspects. I've said it many times and I'll say it again, I didn't get into studying physics for any other reason than my own enlightenment and only then did I get the impression there is far more head in the clouds thinking than anyone cares to admit. This hasn't changed the fact that I still see and think on a fairly basic level and while I do put some degree of effort into trying to understand what others are thinking, I am certainly willing to admit when I see my mistakes, or when it's over my head. That said, I still don't get too emotional about it, other then some mild frustration when I think the obvious is being ignored.

I have no problem with your discrete fields theory. One of my arguments has been that three dimensional space is really nothing more than a coordinate system and there are many coordinate systems defining the same space. All of the actual physical fields effectively bound up as their own gravitational systems, which do affect any light propagating through or within them. I still think space itself is an underlaying reality to all these fields, actions, effects, relationships etc. Such that while these fields might be moving around, they are ultimately bound by the speed of light relative to that inertial space. Given that light is extremely fast, this does give quite a bit of maneuvering room. Yes, around the edges, there are any number of ways it seems possible to perceive light in different ways, it does seem ultimately grounded to something more than just particular fields. So that these fields mediate between C and inertia. Otherwise, without one, the other doesn't make sense. What is to stop these fields moving past each other at multiples of the speed of light? I should go read your paper again and not just ramble on, but the mind is just on autopilot at the moment.

Regards,

John M

John Merryman

Tom,

No. I don't know what color your eyes are, but it's not like I can't know it.

Regards,

John M

Zeeya Merali

Hi Peter,

Sorry, I don't know why that's been happening. Let me see if I can get it sorted.

John Merryman

Peter,

"So if 1,000 identical particles are at rest in 1,000 different inertial frames they will ALL oscillate at the SAME IDENTICAL rate. How can anything else possibly logically be the case? That is the proper holistic viewpoint, and conforms to Special Relativity as c is c in all inertial frames."

Identical cause yields identical effect?

TIME is universal. it is the same in all inertial systems (frames) anf also all the BACKGROUND frames those systems may be moving through."

I'm not trying to be rude, but we really are looking this from opposite perspectives. You see time as universal in all inertial frames. I see only one inertial frame. Anything, like the space station, is moving relative to it. Because all motion in that frame is affected identically, its clocks are identical.

" In your universe the oscillators would change speed if the missile is doing some 'different' speed (to the plane, air or hangar??) in which case the telemetry would be seriously compromised.'

What about clocks on gps satellites? What if that missile was traveling at some significant fraction of the speed of light?

Can both space and time be universal(Newton), or is it the combination(Einstein) maybe it's just time(Jackson), or maybe it's just space(Me)rryman)?

Regards,

John M

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