Hello James,

The original thread is a bit muddied and become incoherent so let me reply on a new thread.

On "Mass is not independent of space and space is not independent of mass."... and "When I say that space is not independent of mass, I mean that there is no such thing as space without mass in it."

I take you to mean by this that Space can only exist if there is a matter particle. To give an example, the one-light year length/distance between two electrons in space exists because of the two electrons at the end of the line. Were any of the two electrons to cease existing, that line ceases to exist as well. This is the relational view of space promoted by Mach and others, as opposed to the substantival view supported by Newton and Einstein (a part of him), that the line exists on its own right independent of whether or not electrons exist at the end of it.

A Thought experiment (gedanken experimenten) may help here...

Assume you are an electron, all alone in space without any reference except yourself and your travel pack. If you get a hunch that there could be another human electron some distance away, how do you quantify how much food and water to take along? Especially as you say it is only the possible presence of the other human electron that would be the determinant of the travelled distance, distance having no meaning by and of itself according to you. Your view would also imply that after a lot of motion of your electronic legs, as there is no means of your knowing if you are moving on the same spot or from spot to spot, no energy is expended and in physics terms you have done no work. From this, it is only in the event that you now come face to face with the other human electron that you will acknowledge (1) that you have travelled a distance, (2) that you have expended energy. Take note of the various inherent contradictions your view will entail. Take note also that relationally there is no means of your knowing whether it was you that sought out the other human electron or it was the other human electron that sought you out. Forget the fact that you feel tired and are panting :)

This is what relationists want us to believe. See the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy for some of Newton's views on Space and also this.

On "Please do provide any useful quotes"

"...it is clear that they (philosophers) would cheerfully allow extension (space) to be substance, just as body is, if only extension could move and act as body can". Elsewhere in the same paper, he says, "...space is capable of having some substantial reality. Indeed, if its parts could move..., and this mobility was an ingredient in the idea of vacuum, then there would be no question about it - parts of space would be corporeal substance" - Newton in his uncompleted paper, De Gravitatione

..."It appeared beyond question that light must be interpreted as a vibratory process in an elastic, inert medium filling up universal space. It also seemed to be a necessary consequence of the fact that light is capable of polarization that this medium, the ether, must be of the nature of a solid body, because transverse waves are not possible in a fluid, but only in a solid. Thus the physicists were bound to arrive at the theory of the "quasi-rigid" luminiferous ether, the parts of which can carry out no movements relatively to one another except the small movements of deformation which correspond to light-waves" - Einstein put it in his 1920 Leiden lecture

"Whatever difficulties we may have in forming a consistent idea of the constitution of the æther, there can be no doubt that the interplanetary and interstellar spaces are not empty, but are occupied by a material substance or body, which is certainly the largest, and probably the most uniform body of which we have any knowledge."- James Clerk Maxwell

*Read ether as space itself in all cases. All quotes appear in Chapters 5 and 6 of my e-Book, Hypotheses Fingo, available in bookstores HERE and HERE.

If you and others are favourably disposed you may get a copy. If you can may also wish to give a review, make online comments and give a rating afterwards.

Regards,

Akinbo

    Akinbo,

    No the ideas you are clarifying are not what I was referring to. My response fit with my having followed this suggestion that I made for you to follow. If you are going to argue a case based upon retaining an indefinable mass, then you will miss the point of my message:

    Quoting from my message to you:

    "I have to repeat that mass is an indefinable property. Neither Newton nor Einstein nor anyone else has defined mass. If you are thinking of mass in a particular manner that fits with someone's theory or your own conclusions about it, I need to suggest that you have to also define kilograms in the strict physics sense that I have provided here. That is how you can show that you have defined mass and, thereby, can describe for the first time in the history of physics what mass is and its relationship to other properties. My answers back to you based upon my own work where all properties are properly defined except for the two properties of empirical evidence, length and time as measured by clocks. Mass is not independent of space and space is not independent of mass. ..."

    My point is that one needs to know what mass is in order to describe its role in the universe. It keeps having to be repeated that mass is currently an indefinable property. It needs to be repeated because it keeps getting ignored. There are at least three major errors contained in theoretical physics. The first is the indefinable status of mass. The second is the indefinable status of temperature. The third is the circular definition of electric charge. You read my exchanges with Tom. I ask you now what is temperature? What is mass? Electric charge can wait for the answers to these two question. So long as mass officially remains indefinable, discussions about is role consist of insufficiently developed speculations.

    James

    Well,First akinbo space does not exist and second the aether is not luminiferous, so you are not coherent simply.So rewrite the e book ,thanks for your understanding.Well we are going to laught in live still and always ....Always turning 7 x its ...in its ....Simply.I have read some of your reasonings, they are not generaland rational sorry akinbo.To you t

    be coherent please when you speak about what is mass, space and energy.Don't try to encircle the aether of God if you do not understand it my friend.Bad Fallen be sure.

    We do not need courses or bizare ideas here on FQXi , we need determinism.I can understand that vanity is a main parameter of our global probelms,but there are limits there .But let's continue about what is mass and temperature in the works of James.Temperature and mass are what ? I have answered me.Not you Mr Ojo the ebooker.:)

    Steve Douforny,

    Quoting you: "We do not need courses or bizare ideas here on FQXi , we need determinism.I can understand that vanity is a main parameter of our global probelms,but there are limits there .But let's continue about what is mass and temperature in the works of James.Temperature and mass are what ? I have answered me.Not you Mr Ojo the ebooker.:)"

    You don't say whom you are addressing. If it is directed to me that "...We do not need courses..." Then my response is don't learn it. When you make statements such as "...or bizare ideas here on FQXi,..." please quote the 'bizarre' idea so that it can be defended by the proper person. FQXi.org has its own moderators. If you know what temperature and mass are, then please repeat it. Thank you Steve,

    James

    :) no James it was not for you but for Akinbo.He says that there are incohérences, so now I explain him where are his incoherence.It is logic.I am nice James but Inside this sciences community we know that vanity is important.That is why I play also when they are arrogant and vanitious.It is ironical because people speaks about generalities of this entropy, this relativity and this aether but they do not really encircle its realmeaning ??? What is this circus.I beleive strongly that it is not possible to ponder general equations about entropy and matter and energy if this generality is not understood, and the entropy is god with of without their approvements.It is like that ,God creates a sphere with sphères in 3D and the project of this entropy above our physicality is Young still.It is irritating sometimes to see the vanity of scientists insisting on a thing that they do not understand ?You understand that you James ?and after we shall say all but how is it possible that this planet sphere earth is in this state......Vanity of vanities ,all is vanity .....There is a big problem Inside the sciences community,a time for all after all.Mass and temperature are effects of causes James, these mesures show us the motions and properties of particlessimply.Photons are not the only one quantum of E implying mass and temperature that said.It is a function James this temperature,the thermometric properties and functions are just mesures Under our gravitation.Pression and volume that said are relevant when we consider this temperature like a function.Mass and temperaure are results ofmotions of sphères in my model and they are always Under their gravitation due to our local gravity(here the earth)PV....T are universal and one of my favorite équations.Mass seems also linked indeed.The universal work appears with the sphères ,the volumes and the pressions more their rmotions.Temperature is just due to photons James,the quanta of thermodynamical E, that is all.When we give an external energy like fire for example on water, we see a transfert of photons simply and after they reach their points of equilibrium due to their gravitation(cosm and quant !!!) It is simple in fact.Mass is a result of evolution due to encodings of stable gravitational serie.The mass continues to encode and evolve James.But not only photons.....The heat and the work are always proportional .Regards

    After allJames, all stable serie gravitational has its intrinsic properties due to kinetic mechanic of sphères and motions.These stable encodings shall have always the same stable gravitational properties everywhere in our universe.We can change the temperature of a mass , but not its mass that said.Let's take the uranium or the radium, they return always at their points of equilibriums due to their stable codes gravitational created by cosmologicl sphères simply.We cannot change the gravitational quantum codes ,we can play with photons and spherons but not with the main gravitational quantum codes.These codes encode furthermore the photons and spherons in logic.But we can change temperature but not mass.That is why we have possible irreversibilities and reversibilities due to these 3 different quant sphères in a general simplistic vue.The stable gravitational coded series(ENCODING), the photons and the spherons(ENCODED).The reversibilities and irreversibilities appear and can be classedin function of parameters.That said the mass and gravitation are correlated, not teperature which is Under our standard model.It is the same that our entropical principle, irreversible and its steps of disponible énergies.It is relevant when we consider the heat and thermo and this gravitation(and its stability like the mass)We can play with the works and the réversibles process and the points of equiibrium.It is the relevance of the entropical principle tending to infinity like our gravitation.But just a small part is sufficient in the two senses,quant and cosm.Regards

    Imagine simply that mass encodes light and dark matter.Imagine the encodings since 13,7billions years.You imagine the numer of photons encoded in a serie stable gravitationaly speaking ? It is that the heat,each stable gravitational serie and its mass encode photons since the begining of the physicality and they are synchronised due to the stable series.That implies a specific intrinsic heat and so temperature uin function of external parameters.The photons are the causes of heat and thermo, not the spherons.If a mass and its intrinsic heat is put in a specific gravitation, so we have an acceleration of this mass implying the gravity ,this force James simply and so a specific temperature in function of the environment and its forces.The intrinsic heat and mass are not changeable ,temperature yes.The mass and intrinsic heat shall be always the same ,not the temperature.The fact that this entropy creates a physicality with codes implies the necessity to have stable series ,gravitational implying mass.Stars ,thermo ,standrad model,are just an entropical step.Gravitation is more far ....Regards

    If we take the concept of entropy ,it is like the relativity, it is a general and spiritual even concept.We are just still so Young at this universal scale.If God, this infinite entropy creates codes, so they are produced by cosmol sphères(BH and stars) Now I don't beleive that only the thermodynamicalphotonic quantum of E exists,it is just a tool.There is an other logic for our gravitation.That is why I beleive that photons are encircled and that gravitation is the main chief orchestra.The heat and thermo and photons and temperature are just for our stars and standard model.The BH, the dark matter and the particles of gravitation must be inserted.This quantum of E seems very intriguing and paradoxal when we consider the entropical concept and its fractalisations of E.A photon is a photon because it is coded by gravitation.The sphrons seems the answer if they encircle these photons.So the gravitation is the main piece and so the aether is gravitational and space so does not exist due to smallest and speedest spherons produced by the central BH of the universal sphere.The relevance is to consider so an intrinsic energy due to these particles of gravitation governing the encodings, reversibilities and irreversibilities.God does not play at dices and the entropy concept is more than our simple human analyses.We appraoch all days but we are so far still of what is this gravitation.The spherisation, the gravitation and entropy are linked.This zero absolute and the maximum temperature and heat become intriguing when we consider the entropical increasing furthermore .....The real fascinating thing is this infinite entropy above our physicality.The complexification of mass is fascinating....Regards

    James,

    I have an idea what you are getting at. You desire a definition of mass that is non-circular? If that is the case, there is no such definition and in that case your claim that mass is an indefinable property is correct. But so are other properties like length and time. To paraphrase from your statement and replace mass with length, one can similarly say, "My point is that one needs to know what LENGTH is in order to describe its role in the universe. It keeps having to be repeated that LENGTH is currently an indefinable property".

    If the version of the Big bang model that the universe started from zero/nothing (no mass, no length and no time) is correct, since nothing can only be defined as the absence of something, and our universe has arisen from such a state, it should not be a surprise if mass is not definable the way you want it to. Mass can only be described. And my description is that mass is a region of space that obeys Newton's laws of motion and gravity. Similarly, a charge is a region of space that obeys Coulomb's laws. Neither mass or charge are ultimately conserved. They can be lost and gained. The universe has been gaining in mass and radius. Therefore extrapolating backwards in time it has been reducing mass and radius. Today, the mass is estimated to be about 10 52kg. At the Planck epoch, the universe was of Planck density with a mass about 10 -8kg.

    I will leave the definition of temperature to others.

    In earlier conversation, I replied with illustration of how space is changed during motion, contrary to your statement that space cannot be changed. This may not be in the way you may have anticipated, but you may at least admit that in another sense, space is shortened and lengthened during what we perceive as motion.

    Finally, as you continue in your quest to define mass, take into reckoning Newton's and Descartes''views that ultimately there is no actual difference between those regions we refer to as Space and those we refer to as Mass, they differ only in the manner in which their most fundamental constituents behave.

    Akinbo

    Akinbo,

    "I have an idea what you are getting at. You desire a definition of mass that is non-circular? If that is the case, there is no such definition and in that case your claim that mass is an indefinable property is correct. But so are other properties like length and time. To paraphrase from your statement and replace mass with length, one can similarly say, "My point is that one needs to know what LENGTH is in order to describe its role in the universe. It keeps having to be repeated that LENGTH is currently an indefinable property".

    There is a non-circular definition for mass. What keeps having to be repeated is that mass is an indefinable property and it shouldn't be. Mass can be and should be defined in terms of the properties of empirical evidence. This does not mean that mass is to be defined as length or as time. Its definition will be some combination of length and time. This does not mean that mass is to be defined as a kind of space-time. Length and time are properties that give us the information needed to learn what mass is, but, in the context of this paragraph, they have not given us that information yet. This is the point where if one stops looking further, one does not reach the answer. This is the point where different minds can speculate about the relationship between mass and length and time or perhaps space and time. This is an example of how a lack of definition opens the door for theorists to take over and substitute their ideas to fill in for the lack of knowledge as to what is mass. You have stopped here.

    Mass is always conserved considering the stable gravitational series.It is foundamental.And the mass is an effect probably of rotations of quantum sphères.The proportions in logic exist.The stable gravitational serie can gain or loose but always they return to their equilibrium due to their intrinsic gravitational codes.

    Everywhere Inside the universal 3D sphere you shall have always the same mass, not the same weight.F=ma simply in newton.I have 80 kg near 800 newton of forces and I have different force on other place of our universe, but my mass is the same like my intrinsic heat.The mass is due to a number, specific of particles encoded due to evolution, we are results of evolution with a specific mass irreversible in a general analyse.And particles have a mass ,it is just a simple addition of these particles.This mass evolves due to encodings in the stable gravitational serie implying mass.Temperature is a mesure of intrinsic heat of these gravitational stable series.Is it really relevant to debate about these foundamentals?

    we see easily that teamperature is function of several parameters.Let's take PV=nRT ........We see that temperature changes if we apply a force in closed volume.If I put a mass Inside this closed volume,I don't change its mass but its properties,it is totaly different.That said the heat ,intrinsic, internal of all gravitational stables series is specific.The reversibilities and irreversibilities must be classed in fact simply.The main gravitational codes are totaly and universaly irreversible.

    James,

    There is a non-circular definition for mass.. What is it?

    Mass can be and should be defined in terms of the properties of empirical evidence. Agreed. What are your own empirical evidence?

    Length and time are properties that give us the information needed to learn what mass is, Agreed again. What properties do you have in mind?

    You have stopped here. I have not stopped. I discuss this more in the e-book I referred to above. Basically that property, has to do with the question whether the unit of length (call it the Planck length if you want), ... whether it is an eternally existing object or whether it can perish. Whether it can emerge from nothing or be extinguished to nothing. (*note the subtle hint at role of time implied with the term 'eternally' existing or not so)

    Akinbo

    That becomes interesting.The nothing of course does not exist.Now about the recycling, the eternity,several important différences must be made.The time is a result of our physicality.Mass also.Now let's go more far with the souls and the mass.The standard model for me is a recycling where eternity has no meaning.Now about the gravitational codes, it is an other story, that is why the souls and the gravitation must be considered differently than with our standard model.The mass is not eternal when we consider the standard model.Now more far t 10^-35m and near probably this zero absolute, a different mechanic appears where time must be considered differently also.If people correlates the eternity with the standard model, that cannot give the correct extrapolations;Now if the gravitation is add to mass ,that becomes relevant considering the physicality in evolution of mass and gravitation.But it is two thibgs different.Mass of the standard model has nothing to do with the souls.And the only one eternity is above our physicality,this universal sphere and its sphères.The physicality is a system where laws and doamins have been created by this infinite entropy.God indeed does not play at dices like said Einstein.The universe is a deterministicmechanic.If this eternity, infinite has created a physicality , there are reasons.If singular souls have been created,there are reasons, if the life is a reality insde this universe, there are reasons, we create a kind of paradise;we are just Young still.We die electromagneticaly speaking, not gravitationaly.We are babies in evolution, souls in irmpovement and the real relevance is to consider the infinite potential of this physicality considering an eternal infinity above this universal sphere.I have thought a lot about this infinity eternal,why?,how? ...I said me but how this universe and why has been created ?Perhaps simply that this eternity has wanted to share its universal love because this infinity was alone .....We are the babies and we are Inside a wonderful project of pure imrpovement towards the physical eternity where souls and God are unified.....We are just youngs still.The gravitational codes and the photonic codes are two things totaly different.

    My humble general equation E=m(c²+l²) tries to explain this bridge for our universal gravitation spherisation.mlosv=Constant permits to class these sphères and motions.The mass,this matter and correlated energy due to encodings of evolution has still somany secrets to show us.This universal sphere and its sphères dancing around the central BH.God is not far of us when we consider these smallest andspeedest spherons....The main codes are gravitational and this gravitation is themain chief orchestra.The newtonian mechanic is always relevant.

    Akinbo,

    "Mass can be and should be defined in terms of the properties of empirical evidence. Agreed. ... "

    You agree? What do you think I mean by my statement?

    "What are your own empirical evidence?"

    It is not my own empirical evidence.

    Quoting me: "You stopped here."

    This remark refers to your analysis of what you think I am proposing?

    Quoting you: "I have an idea what you are getting at. You desire a definition of mass that is non-circular? If that is the case, there is no such definition and in that case your claim that mass is an indefinable property is correct. But so are other properties like length and time. To paraphrase from your statement and replace mass with length, one can similarly say,

    Your analysis shows that you are not following what I am saying. You think that I am saying that mass is length? That is where you stopped. Obviously mass is not length. I asked above: What do you think I mean by my statement?

    Quoting me: "There is a non-circular definition for mass.."

    Quoting you: "What is it?"

    I was refuting your statement:

    "I have an idea what you are getting at. You desire a definition of mass that is non-circular? If that is the case, there is no such definition and in that case your claim that mass is an indefinable property is correct. But so are other properties like length and time. ... "

    This shows that you do not know what I am getting at. Putting that aside, your statement is false. My claim that mass is an indefinable property is correct because mass is currently an indefinable property. That is an established historical physics fact. Yes length and time are not defined. They never will be defined. There are no other properties that you describe as "But so are other properties like length and time. ... ". Length and time are the only properties that can correctly be indefinable.

    I understand that you are presenting your own ideas. That is fine. This is your thread. You said you started it because "The original thread is a bit muddied and become incoherent so let me reply on a new thread." That original thread was mine. It was not muddied. It was not incoherent. It was carefully written and said what I wanted it to say. You didn't follow it. You have a distorted view of it. So be it. If you, in your view of it, think that I am wrong and that you have better ideas that are probably right, that is understandable. We all come here to teach. I will return to my own thread to continue explaining my work.

    Again: Quoting me: "There is a non-circular definition for mass.."

    Quoting you: "What is it?"

    There is a non-circular definition for mass because there are non-circular definitions for all properties other than length and time. Not that length and time have circular definitions either. They have no definitions. They never will have definitions. All other properties can be and must be defined. With regard to "What is it?", I will not be posting that answer here. The time to answer it is when and where the process of getting it defined is understood. It is not yet understood.

    I have it now and will read and comment on it...very cool stuff...

    *Read ether as space itself in all cases. All quotes appear in Chapters 5 and 6 of my e-Book, Hypotheses Fingo, available in bookstores Hypotheses Fingo: *A Universe Increasing in Mass and Radius from Zero *Dark Matter and the Relativity of Time Dilemma *Postulate X and Its Implication for Space, Motion and Light *Action Is in and Not at a Distance