Hi Akinbo,
Yes, we are permanently in the `now`.
"Can `now` cease to exist?" No.
The Earth has been around for a long time. The whole of that time, it`s been in the `now`.
There is no such `thing` as time. We can look at `now`, as `nothing`, rather than as a situation of `time passing`.
What is really going on, is that duration is elapsing.
Jim,
"Can `now` cease to exist?" You said No.
If the Universe perishes in a Big Crunch, will there still be a 'now' after the event?
Before the universe emerged from nothing in a Big bang, was there a 'now'?
Unless you are of the view that the Universe is eternal, I believe 'now' can perish.
Regards,
Akinbo
Time is an emergent property of change, and change is built into the equation.
The Universe is an iterated function system (IFS), and it is the iteration process that generates change. One cannot undo change any more than one can undo an iteration. This is the reason for the "arrow of time". This is the reason for evolution. Time is an emergent property of change and endless undoable change is built into the equation. That is it. Mystery solved.
Hello dear Ms Fractalwoman,
Could you develop please a little,Id like to know more if you want well.
Do you consider this time like irreversible linked with the entropical Arrow of time respecting our second law of thermodynamics or reversibleconsidering the mathematical extrapolations of geometrical algebras breaking our symmetries?
Regards
The only way to look at it is philosophically. It will not make any sense to say it's emergent. That's just a fancy way of not knowing.
So philosophically, If God decides to create beings to share in his existence he might want them to *Grow instead of just *Know.
There might not be a reason for Time if we just Know everything. But to have Thoughts move and build in a physical world that moves- with things to discover that can be stored in memory as to draw on them and formulate ideas....well thats a reason for Time. Especially a blank slate--- a mind designed to bring forth Questions, Premises, so conclusions can be made, stored, and brought forth again to be combined with other conclusions in order to form even more complex ideas and if the person is not crippled by Bias.....Truth.
None of this is possible without free will. We collect, accept or reject, collect, store, grow and repeat until we are the person we chose to be. Time allows us ultimately reveal ourselves but it also allows us to change
Let us just assume that time is a property in our universe. We can look at time as entropical , perception in our brain, measurements in atomic clocks, relativistic as per Einstein, absolute as per Newton etc. But what is real time ? Measurements of time by atomic clocks does not qualify time. Satellite time is not earth based lab time and we require GPS correction. But do you believe time dilates or rather tuned atomic clocks just vary their ticks/frequency due to change of gravity/reference frame. Here time is dilating or our measurement is dilating? We say time is a measurement between two events. Here comes the question of rate of flow from one event to another event. Event is changing due to a entropy gradient as cause and effect is a new event. Here the rate of flow may vary if the gradient pressure varies as we see in flow of water. If nothing changes in this universe, then does it mean that time stops or flows . Is there any universal absolute time or even multi- universal absolute time? We sometime perceive time differently. A week on vacation at a sea resort goes quickly than a week in a sea voyage. All matter and material in our universe is in motion and there is no absolute rest. As such we may not know absolute time , but that does not mean absolute time never exists. Therefore we have to be happy with only reflections of absolute time in various perspectives of entropy or relativistic or in our perception or in measurement by atomic clocks etc etc. When reality is impossible in a universe of reflections which is a variable from point to point ,then I do not know what can be done except imagining an absolute time.
There is a paper posted to ResearchGate.net and to Academia.edu that reports the identification of the basis of time in the universe. The paper provides the answers to the questions, What is time?, Why does time occur?, and Why does time have the specific qualities that it has?
People have been wondering about the nature of time for thousands of years. Nevertheless, no one has ever been able to find the basis of time in the universe. There is a specific reason for this--it is not possible to discover what time is by examining the observable qualities of time.
Trying to find the basis of time by way of the qualities of time is a top-down process. The problem is that those qualities do not reveal what time is or why it occurs.
I did not find the basis of time intentionally. I was not then working on the question of time. Rather I was studying space, specifically the continuing-existence of space. (This is the continuing-existence of space as measured by a clock, not the extension of three-dimensional space as measured by a ruler.)
While looking at space, I came upon the basis of time unexpectedly--by way of a bottom-up approach.
My work involves developing methodology for discipline-spanning transdisciplinary understanding that enhances communication between the disciplines. To develop the methodology it is necessary to examine and compare the real-world subject matters of the various disciplines.
When listing the intrinsic qualities of the continuing-existence of space, for transdisciplinary purposes, it became evident that these qualities of an aspect of space were the same as the qualities that can realistically be attributed to time.
In the universe, spatial-continuing-existence plays all the roles of time, and is thereby the basis of time in the universe
Spatial-continuing-existence is time due to the general role of spatial-continuing-existence in the universe. This role is a consequence of the role in the universe of space itself.
In the real-world, space can be observed to exist as extensional three-dimensional immaterial place. Spatial-place provides an existential-context, a place-to-be, for all that exists. For example, matter occupies, exists in, spatial-place. The three-dimensional extensional qualities of matter occupy the three-dimensional extension of spatial-place.
Continuing-existence is a form of change. The general role of spatial-continuing-existence is that it provides an existential-context, a place-to-occur, for all forms of change. All forms of ongoing change occur in concert, simultaneously, with the continuously ongoing change-existential-context provided by the continuing-existence of the spatial-place in which those changes are occurring.
The reason I keep referring to the universe, and to roles in the universe, is because the discussion here, and in the paper, is not about concepts. It is about the reality-referents of concepts. It is not about the concept of time. It is about time itself. Concepts are recognized to be mental tools that are used by the mind to achieve understanding of the world outside the mind, outside the brain.
Regards,
Vincent Vesterby
thegeneralist@themoderngeneralist.com
ResearchGate: The Identification of the Intrinsic Nature of Time
Academia: The Identification of the Intrinsic Nature of Time
Cannot get the links to work. will try again.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299437469_The_Identification_of_the_Intrinsic_Nature_of_Time
https://www.academia.edu/21710898/The_Identification_of_the_Intrinsic_Nature_of_Time
Regarding the flow of time, Davies is correct, time does not flow.
The analogy between a flowing river and time probably originated because it was recognized that both the river and time are cases of continuous ongoing change.
This analogy, however, introduces a significant confusion because the ongoing change of flowing involves movement of matter, but the ongoing change of time does not involve matter or motion. Flow and time are significantly different forms of change.
With the flowing river part of the analogy there is the river flowing along between its banks. There is a specific place on the bank, usually with a person standing there watching the river flow by. In the analogy the place where the person is standing represents the present, where the water is currently flowing by. The water upstream represents the future because it has not yet reached the person on the bank. The water downstream from the person represents the past because it has already passed by the person.
In the analogy, the water is flowing with respect to a specific location on the bank. The flow upstream is the future because it has not yet arrived at the specific location on the bank. The flow currently passing by that location is the continuously changing present. And the flow downstream is the past because it has passed that location.
This analogy is clear--the water flows with respect to a location on the bank which represents the present.
Davies gives a confused misinterpreted version of the analogy. He said, "In other words, it [the water] moves with respect to time."
That is wrong. It completely confuses the point of the analogy. But it does give Davies the opportunity to say, "But time can't move with respect to time--time is time."
This sophistry is Davies' way to eliminate the concept of time as a flowing form of change (which is a valid objective).
The problem here is that Davies does not know what time is, why time occurs, or why time has the specific qualities (properties) that it has, such as what kind of change time is. He does not know what constitutes the basis of time in the universe.
The important point here is that it is necessary to know what kind of change time is in order to know why time is not a flow.
Davies' comments about why time is not a flow are speculation.
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Recognition of the basis of time in the universe--recognizing what time is--removes the need for speculation, and makes it possible to understand what kind of change time is.
The use of the type of transdisciplinary methodology that results in multi-discipline-spanning understanding and that enhances communication among the disciplines revealed the basis of time in the universe from a bottom-up approach. Using transdisciplinary methodology to investigate the intrinsic nature of space revealed that the intrinsic qualities of the continuing-existence of space are the same as the qualities that can be realistically attributed to time. It became evident that spatial-continuing-existence plays all the roles in the universe that are commonly thought of as temporal roles.
(This is the continuing-existence of space as measured by a clock, not the extension of three-dimensional space as measured by a ruler.)
Spatial-continuing-existence, was being studied and described before it was realized that it was the basis of time.
When the realization occurred that spatial-continuing-existence was the basis of time, it became evident why the basis of time in the universe had not been previously recognized. Viewing the known qualities of time does not lead to the understanding that spatial-continuing-existence is that basis. The basis of time could only be discovered inadvertently, by a bottom-up approach, by studying the basis and describing it, and only then recognizing that it is the basis.
Once it is known what time is, what form of ongoing change it is, then it is possible to understand why time is not a flow.
Spatial-continuing-existence is the form of change by which time occurs. So what kind of change is continuing-existence? Why is continuing-existence a form of change?
This is a form of change that is not much discussed.
(The following discussion is not about concepts. It is about the reality-referents of concepts. It is not about the concepts of space or spatial-continuing-existence. It is about space itself and spatial-continuing-existence as they exist as intrinsic qualities of the universe. Concepts are recognized to be mental tools that are used by the mind to achieve understanding of the world outside the mind. The discussion avoids abstraction and all forms of speculation from presuppositions and assumptions to hypotheses and theories.)
The human visual sense has evolved such that it can detect the presence of space.
When looking at space, it can be seen that space is there, and that it continues to be there.
It can be observed that spatial-continuing-existence is a continuance of being-there.
Continuing-existence is a form, a type, of continuance.
All forms of continuance have parts, for example, a limited form of continuance has a beginning part, a middle part, and a final part, as occurs with a broom handle from the upper end down to the lower end, or as occurs with a single rotation of the earth.
The parts of a continuance occur sequentially, each part occurring after the previous part and before the following part.
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With the case of the broom handle, all the sequential parts are there together--it is possible to see them all together at the same time, the full length of the handle.
Each part is individually unique--the upper part, the middle part, and the lower part--each sequentially different from a following part or from a prior part.
With the broom handle, the parts are sequentially different, coexistent, and constitute a situation of coexistent-sequential-difference.
With the case of the rotating earth, the sequentially occurring parts of a rotation are not there together--it is not possible to see them all together at the same time, the full rotation from beginning to end.
Each part of the rotation--the first part, the middle part, and the final part--is individually unique, sequentially different from a following part and from a prior part.
With the rotation of the earth, the parts are sequentially different, are not sequentially coexistent, and constitute a situation of noncoexistent-sequential-difference.
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With the coexistent-sequential-difference that exists along the handle of a broom, there is difference from place to place, but there is no occurrence of change.
With the noncoexistent-sequential-difference that occurs from part to part with rotation, the difference that occurs does so in the form of change.
As with rotation, flow and spatial-continuing-existence are cases of noncoexistent-sequential-difference in which the difference that occurs does so in the form of change.
_________________________________________________________________
When observing the broom handle--the full length of it, all the coexistent parts simultaneously--there is no ontological difference occurring, no existential changes occurring. All the parts are sequentially there together, and they remain there together.
When observing rotation, flow, and the continuing-existence of space--the noncoexistent sequence of the parts--ontological difference occurs, existential change occurs. The parts occur noncoexistently, and are not there together.
When the current part is there, the previous part no longer exists and the following part has not yet come into existence.
The part of the rotation, the flow, or the continuing-existence of space that is occurring currently is noncoexistently distinct from the part that occurred just previous.
The current part of their noncoexistent-sequential-difference did not yet exist when the previous part was occurring.
Now, as the current part exists, it is newly existent.
As the rotation continues, as the flow continues, as space continues to exist, there is continuously new part of those cases of ongoing continuance--new part of ongoing noncoexistent-sequential-difference--new part of the ongoing rotation, new part of the ongoing flow, new part of the continuing-existence of space.
Change is the occurrence of something which is existentially new--the coming into existence of something that is existentially new.
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The occurrence of new part of noncoexistent-sequential-difference is the occurrence of change.
With the cases of rotation and flow it is new part of ongoing motion of matter--rotating matter of the earth and flowing water along the river channel.
Space, however, is immaterial. As a foundational component of the universe, space exists as the infinite three-dimensional extension of immaterial place.
(The attribution of a material basis for space is anthropomorphism--humans have a material basis. The attribution of any quality or property of substantiality or matter to space is also anthropomorphic. Anthropomorphism is disallowed in science and the philosophy of reality, the philosophy of that which exists.)
Neither matter nor motion play any roles in the existence or qualities of space or in the continuing-existence of space.
The basis of the noncoexistent-sequential-difference of spatial-continuing-existence is different from the basis of the noncoexistent-sequential-difference of flow and rotation.
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In conclusion:
Both flow and spatial-continuing-existence are cases of continuous ongoing change.
Both are cases of noncoexistent-sequential-difference.
Both have the occurrence of new part of the continuous ongoing change, new part of their noncoexistent-sequential-difference.
They are different in what it is that constitutes the continuous ongoing change.
With flow it is ongoing motion, which involves a role for matter--it is matter that moves.
With spatial-continuing-existence it is continuing-existence, which involves a role for space--space exists and continues to exist.
Flow and spatial-continuing-existence are different in what constitutes new part.
With flow it is new part of ongoing motion.
With spatial-continuing-existence it new part of that ongoing existence.
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Existing as the infinite three-dimensional extension of immaterial place, space provides an existential-context, a place-to-be, a place in which to exist, for all else that exists.
The three-dimensional extension of immaterial spatial-place provides an existential-context for the three-dimensional extension of matter.
Spatial-continuing-existence provides an existential-context, a place-to-occur, for all other forms of change.
Spatial-continuing-existence provides an existential-context for the continuing-existence of matter--the continuing-existence of an object occurs concurrently, simultaneously, with the continuing-existence of the spatial-place the matter occupies.
The continuous ongoing change of spatial-continuing-existence provides an existential-context for the continuous ongoing change that occurs with flow.
By providing an existential-context for all forms of change, spatial-continuing-existence plays throughout the universe all the roles of time.
The relation between time and flow is that time provides the existential-context in which flow occurs.
Hi Vincent,
I would refer you to my postings, that begin on February 25th, 2,014, in the column above.
I did write a one page essay in the first essay contest, but my postings above will give you the drift of my perspective.
I think you might find my perspective interesting.
Hello Amrit,
You wrote: "Time has only a mathematical existence."
My work involves developing methodology for multidiscipline-spanning transdisciplinary understanding that enhances communication between the disciplines. To develop the methodology it is necessary to examine and compare the real-world subject matters of the various disciplines.
Part of the procedure for comparing the subject matters of the disciplines is to ask certain specific questions that are particularly useful for focusing the analysis
When analyzing the intrinsic nature of something that exists, I ask What is it?, Where is it?, and What is it made of? I ask these questions about the subject matter of every discipline.
The first question, What is it?, is usually the initiator for the analysis: What is time?
Your answer to that question is that time exists only with the math.
The next questions then are (1) What is math?, (2) Where is math? and (3) What is math made of?
(1) What is math? Math is an artificial man-made construct, a tool that is used to work with quantities, a tool that enables the process of interrelating quantities.
Everything that exists has quantitative aspects of that existence--how big it is; how much matter it is composed of; how long it exists; how many subcomponents it has; and so on. Naturally existing things, rocks, crocodiles, stars, while they have many quantitative aspects of their existence, they do not have mathematical aspects of their existence. Math does not play any roles in their origins, structures, or processes.
(2) Where is math? Existing as a man-made artifact, math occurs only where humans and human artifacts occur. Math occurs within the minds of humans. It occurs as symbols written in pencil, ink, or some other medium suitable for writing on paper, blackboards, or some other surface suitable for writing symbols. It occurs in computers and their algorithms. And it can occur in other situations that humans create, such as a process, the sequential manipulation of the beads on an abacus for example.
If you look to see where in the universe humans and their artifacts occur, it is observationally evident that the distribution of humans and their artifacts is extremely limited--restricted to the solar system. The solar system looks big from the personal human viewpoint, but it is only one of many such systems that we now know about scattered throughout an immense region of space.
Time occurs throughout that immense region. It is possible to watch a distant star, and observe that it not only exists, but that it continues to exist with time as the observation continues.
Time can be observed to occur beyond the limits of the region of space, the solar system, where math is used as a tool by humans. Math is too limited in its distribution to account for the much greater observable distribution of the occurrence of time.
Math is inadequate as a basis of time in the universe.
(3) What is math made of?
There are two fundamental modes-of-being, two foundational ways something can exist--immaterial and material.
Space and time are immaterial. Everything else that is known to exist has a material (substantial) basis to its existence.
When observing space and matter, it can be seen that matter occupies space. Space provides an existential-context, a place-to-be, for matter. Space exists as the extension of three-dimensional spatial-place.
Spatial-place appears to be immaterial. The role of space of providing a place in which matter can exist does not require that space be a medium of any sort. Spatial-place does not require a material basis for its existence.
To ascribe a material basis for space is anthropomorphic, and anthropomorphism is disallowed in science.
Everything else that is known to exist has, and requires, some form of material basis to its existence.
For example, processes are sequences of interrelations between material components.
Mathematical procedures are processes of interrelating mathematical symbols. To exist, those symbols require a material basis. Math only exists where its material basis exists--brains, ink, chalk, blackboards, computers, abacuses, and so on. All the known material bases of mathematical procedures exist within the solar system.
The known distribution of the material basis of math is too limited to provide a basis of time in the universe.
There is a paper at ResearchGate and at Academia.edu that reports the identification of the basis of time in the universe. This paper explains what time is, making it clear why time is not based in any way on math.
Vesterby, Vincent. 2014. The Identification of the Intrinsic Nature of Time.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299437469_The_Identification_of_the_Intrinsic_Nature_of_Time
Vesterby, Vincent. 2014. The Identification of the Intrinsic Nature of Time.
https://www.academia.edu/21710898/The_Identification_of_the_Intrinsic_Nature_of_Time
Regards,
Vincent
The block universe does not eliminate time at all; it simply sets the imaginary axis with measures in spatial units. This axis iCt of the four-dimensional space-time pseudo-Euclidean continuum is measured in spatial measures, and the speed of light serves as a coefficient for converting time measures into space measures. On this axis, the clock is marked, in accordance with the onset of future moments. Even if we consider future time to be already given in the structure of Minkowski space-time, we will not see there the future universe as such. Real events occur, happen, occur, are generated - and take their place on the axis of moments. On the infinite axis that goes into the future of the block universe, it's empty, but the universe in its genesis gradually fills the empty iCt axis with upcoming events moment by moment.
Best Regards,
Pavel Poluyan,
Polyan2002@mail.ru
Mr Poluyan,
Do you Think that there is an ontological distinction between the past and the present. and what about the consciousness correlated with this past because it seems it is inactive in this past...