I really don't understand this log-in problem.

Tom,

Thanks for the response. We can go on endlessly discussing the various aspects of this problem, but to give a short response: it is not a religious problem here, but one of the dispossession of an entire people from the land they and their ancestors had lived in. I and most Palestinian families still possess the keys of their homes they had to leave in Palestine to become refugees and watch while the Jewish people 'returned' to a land they read about in their Bibles. I put 'return' in quotes because arguably most of the Jews of European origin (Einstein included) became Jews when the Khazars converted to Judaism in Mediaeval times, as Arthur Koestler argued in his book "The 13th Tribe". You say most Israelis are secularists, so why claim a land 'promised by God'. The regrettable trend of present Islamic religious fundamentalism sweeping the Arab World has nothing to do with the root causes of the Palestinian's right to return to their homeland. And apart from the crazies (and there are plenty of those on both sides) nobody is challenging the Jewish people's right to exist, merely for the privilege of living together in one secular state (the PLO's position) or in two adjacent neighbourly states. Israel has the power and is using it to thwart any peace plans that threatens to lessen its domination and occupation of Palestine. But the history of the Holy Land has seen such power crumble again and again, and as the Psalms say "the poor shall inherit the land".

Peace Salam Shalom

Vladimir

Vladimir

I think we had better stop here, before you throw out The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Dear Tom I do not see how Russian pogroms and European anti-Semitism last century (the alleged "Protocols") justify what Israelis are doing in Palestine today. I agree we should stop here - it is not fair to those readers not interested in the details of this particular conflict. Humanity has to learn to steer the future through the quagmire of such conflicts, but we all must make an effort to understand the other side's views and positions.

Best wishes

Vladimir

    This is the end of this dialogue for me. Just to be clear, though, the reference was not meant to address pogroms in Europe, it was directed toward the persistent hateful propaganda meant to de-legitimize the Jewish people with mythical bullshit. I know you made these uninformed remarks innocently, so I let it go once.

    Dear Mr. Ray

    Your essay was very interesting to read and I do hope that it does well in the competition.

    Regards,

    Joe Fisher

      Dear Tom,

      Your essay is one of the few entries other than mine which has a political component, and like mine, it will probably thereby repel some readers. However, you also introduced a number of interesting concepts from complex systems theory. I agree that research in this area can only help us understand better how to steer the future as a society.

      I liked the analogy with the cake and the knife, although I must admit it escaped me how the transition of the US to a service economy can be seen in terms of this metaphor as a transition from owning the cake to the control over the knife. Surely the US cannot be regarded as a "monolith", and if one considers individual service providers, is it not the case that one can find alternatives, particularly in Canada and Europe?

      Also, I think the case if the 85 richest people voluntarily gave up part of their wealth they would end up in some sense "wealthier" is probably not going to convince them. Perhaps a bit more detail about how this could be implemented would have helped.

      I am thinking in particular in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It seems that once one has reached the wealth level that one can get anything that money can buy, if there is still somewhere a "hole" that needs to be filled, then trying to fill it by acquiring ever more "stuff" is probably futile. It would seem more likely that the highest level of actualization could be achieved by looking into concrete ways how one can take on responsibility for (and thereby *claim ownership* of) aspects of making the world a better place. I wonder how many of the super-rich elite think about these things in that way, but I suspect not a large fraction. Bill Gates seems like a person who has given this thought and acted accordingly.

      In any event, your essay is very eloquently written and makes some thought-provoking points.

      All the best,

      Armin

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        Armin, thank you so much for your thoughtful comments.

        The reference to the 85 getting richer is actually a warning not to "eat the seed corn." The world economy has gotten to be a 2-tier system wherein a small group of the rich trade among themselves, which shrinks the capital resources of the poor and middle class. This is bad for everyone, including the rich, because they are treating capital as a commodity; the free market has become a worldwide case of insider trading, dependent on inflation to succeed and dependent on recession to sustain that success. It's a self-destructive loop, though, when recession becomes depression, the system crashes and everyone loses.

        Another negative outcome of this dynamic is that it forces the wealthy to shift from controlling resources to controlling people -- we have created opportunity for the Rupert Murdochs and the Koch brothers of the world to openly subvert the democratic process (and it is getting even worse in the U.S., with a stream of partisan Supreme Court decisions in the last 15 years), because they have no more economic opportunity. Their success is not measured in good roads, safe buildings and clean water; it is measured in the extent to which they can influence social policy. This is a step backward to the robber barons of a century ago.

        The cake-knife metaphor is meant to underscore the difference between control of people and control of resources. If the former is relinquished, the latter has a chance to flourish -- and the lateral integration of communication with laterally distributed physical resources has the best chance to make it possible, in my opinion.

        Best,

        Tom

        It is a difficult subject to discuss, and I think we have both made our positions clear, so as Popeye says 'enufk is enufk!".

        Dear Thomas,

        Thank you for your essay.

        You wrote: "Modern capitalism has learned how to use political cover to protect itself against Marx's prediction of over-production and under-consumption, by hedging losses and collecting rewards on economic downturns as well as on gains. " That is nicely put. However, the end game is yet to be played.

        There seems to be a natural tendency for hierarchical systems of all scales to evolve into existence. Globalization makes this possible on the largest of scales. Somehow this must be discouraged.

        Your distributed network of multi-scale variety would be the most stable, yet it does seem to require direction, planning, in order to achieve it. And how can the seed be planted? Wealth is becoming more concentrated, governments more compromised by it, societies slowly impoverished because of it.

        Getting "The 85" to come on board seems problematic. I believe they see themselves has harmless, unlike the towering, lumbering giants they are, and no danger to the world economy which supports them. They do not consider Gulliver in Lilliput to be a lesson to them. It may require social trauma to get them to convert, yet they are insulated from it.

        Your place for the US in the future global community seems optimistic. I believe the US has, by its recent behavior, disabused much of the world of its ability to be disinterested and impartial in the allocation of the planet's remaining resources. In any case what it seems, and I think this is your thought, the US would/should be exporting is knowledge in how the various localities should best manage their own resources, in keeping, so far as possible, with local geographic and social conditions.

        I'm afraid the transition is not inevitable. It may, perhaps, be managed. Though perhaps something like Georgina Parry's 'sanctuaries' is the most realistic outcome.

        Interesting and thought provoking throughout. Good luck.

        Charles Gregory St Pierre

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          Charles, you made my day! A writer's greatest reward is a reader's understanding, and your spot on comments are music to my ears.

          Yes, there is no incentive for "job creators" to be "wealth producers." They live in a world apart. It is just this insulation (and isolation) by the law of unintended consequences that compels their attention away from the control of resources to the control of people. The Lilliput metaphor is apt; he who seeks to control will be controlled.

          On the other hand, well managed philanthropy and investment in capital development multiplies the potential to distribute control of resources, and in fact promises to increase individual accumulation and enjoyment of resources without depriving others of the same freedom. The potential for cooperation is a function of individual ability to act independently.

          I agree that Georgina's prediction is very plausible. I am more optimistic. Instead of wealthy isolated communities (like latter day Rome, with gated garrisons to protect against barbarian invasions) -- I see lateral integration of resource access and communication as an 'invisible fence' that cannot be breached by force, and with a guarantee that there is no rational reason to try.

          Best,

          Tom

          Dear Thomas,

          The first comment is to rate you 10-highest rating for making your article "really scientific" It is entirely new I idea I will comment. I

          I also found your "maintain global economic equilibrium" model nice. I discussed quite a lot about global equilibrium which I will want you to read. You will find additional insights in how to keep the equilibrium balance. Because of enormous entries, you can easily access my article here http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2020 STRIKING A BALANCE BETWEEN TECHNOLOGY AND ECOSYSTEM

          Your comment and rating are anticipated

          Wishing you an astonishing reward in this competition.

          Regards

          Gbenga

            Tom,

            I enjoyed reading your essay. It is well written, well thought well documented and actual. About your question

            "What would persuade a money farm collective of 85 megabillionaires to turn over all their capital to the rest of the world - voluntarily, because it would serve their own best interests and make them richer?"

            I understand it to be rhetorical, because how can they be convinced they will be richer by turning over all their capital? Wouldn't they become as poor as any other guy in the world? However, despite his immense donations, Bill Gates is again the richest man in the world. But obviously not because he donated that much. And clearly Bill Gates doesn't donate to be the richest man. He and others (like those sponsoring this contest and funding FQXi) donate to help as much as possible. So, I think that rich people will help others if they will find a higher value in helping others rather than having much more than they can care. But we live in a world which values more being rich, than saving lives and helping. Moreover, we are thought that the best way to help others is not by donations, but by selling them products and services, and by teaching them to do the same. And most of the products/services which are sold are bubbles. Money is very expensive, but a thought can cost nothing, and yet be invaluable. If half of those 85 will have the thought that they should help others as much as they can, they will do it happily.

            Best regards,

            Cristi

              Thank you, Cristi. The question about the 85 was not entirely rhetorical:

              You write, "... how can they be convinced they will be richer by turning over all their capital? Wouldn't they become as poor as any other guy in the world?"

              Because they are not donating -- they are investing -- the capital generates proportionately more resources for them as for those using the investment. That the uber rich are a socialist collective growing money instead of spinach is straight from Marx's prediction of overproduction/underconsumption; ultimately when they have starved the world of capital, they will have starved themselves as well. No one has need of money in a starving world -- as Ghandi put it, to the poor, "God dare not appear in any other form than bread."

              The key idea here is to replace the control of people in a hierarchical society, with rational use and control of the greatest variety of laterally distributed resources. That's not socialism -- collectivization is socialism. Capitalist collectives are no more productive than peasant collectives, in the long run.

              Hierarchical rule is not rational. Investing in, growing and sharing the diversity of the world's resources, is.

              All best,

              Tom

              Tom,

              It isn't often we agree, but since we do and you have given me so much to bounce off of over the years, I thought I'd give you a bump. The only thing I ask in return is that in some future argument, you step back a few moments and try to see my logic before responding.

              Regards,

              John

              Tom,

              I appreciate your comments on my essay and I'm happy to see that your introduction notes both the fundamental failure of Marxism and the fundamental genius of the U.S. Constitution. Your first few pages review current problems and we're much in agreement there. And I agree that prosperous middle-class societies tend to be more ideal in their behaviors than the extremes. How to develop such appears to be the problem.

              I found your section "sharing resources without redistribution" to contain interesting ideas such as: unless one can exchange what one values for what one values more, it isn't wealth. And your observation of wealth distribution as analogous to heat dissipation toward equilibrium. Also like your definition of states rights--and your hope/design in which "down to the least element-the individual-can be effective without sacrificing self-determination to a hierarchical order." And the incredibly lop-sided distribution ("the 85") needs a solution that doesn't turn everything upside down. If your 'sideways' offers a solution, I missed it.

              I liked your discussion of Bar-Yam and scaffolding, as an attempt to answer the problem: "how can one help when help creates dependency?" His "multi-scale variety" as opposed to monolithic totalitarian "equality" seems to support the 50 states as experimental laboratories, with your definition of states rights.

              And without quoting your bottom line, I do tend to agree with it. And with your comment to Vladimir above about "a government of laws, not men" as being the only possible basis for hope of any solution to our problems.

              Thanks again for reading my essay and for writing yours.

              Edwin Eugene Klingman

                • [deleted]

                Thanks, Edwin. This topic, while not completely tractable to hard science, is probably the most profound -- or at least, timely -- that FQXi has suggested so far.

                To try and answer -- " ... the incredibly lop-sided distribution ('the 85') needs a solution that doesn't turn everything upside down. If your 'sideways' offers a solution, I missed it."

                What does it mean for a person to be wealthy? I'm not speaking of the platitudinous -- wisdom, health and all the other substitutes for comfortable living that we preach to the poor, to try and convince them that they are better off for being poor, than having to bear the 'burden' of having money. I mean real comforts and privileges -- entitlements as human beings, to food, clothing, shelter, education and mobility.

                We have been conditioned to think that were resources distributed equally, all would be poor. That conditioning is tied to the transparent motive that servitude to others' needs is requisite to anyone owning enough resources to enjoy life to the fullest. This primitive myth undermines the fact that all individuals' talents and abilities carry potential to increase the common good, to multiply wealth. Equality is not a matter of equal ownership; it is a matter of equal use. Equality is not a matter of equal opportunity; it is a matter of equal access.

                In a world of lifetime free education and perpetual mobility, maximal access and use does not imply equal distribution of resources. It implies continuous and effective distribution; i.e., in contrast to the 'trickle down' philosophy of the putative 'job creators' (who do not in fact create jobs, only more wage slavery), the emphasis is on the free flow of wealth rather than a restrictive trickle. What universal entitlements to education and mobility effectively restrict, is the power of a few people to influence social policy by trickling money to their own preferred interests. Wealth and comfort should be measured in the variety of resources that individuals can apply to their own enjoyment and creativity, rather than restricting the ability of others to do the same. That controlling mechanism has to be checked, before individual wealth-creating abilities can be realized.

                When wealth flows freely, even the very rich benefit from an all you can eat buffet. One is free to stay and stuff oneself, or to be sated and walk away -- to know that one has the choice, though, is the only true gauge of freedom.

                Best,

                Tom

                Dear Tom,

                Thanks for your kind comment for my essay. We share the same idea that not only a free-lunch system is possible but it is mandatory. I pointed out in my essay that the no-free-lunch system is based on the false myth that the no free lunch system is the eternal truth. This is false! We can have a free-lunch system powered by KQID free-lunch engine. I agreed your argument here: "Point is, the metastability of the system over time suggests that a continually shifting range of activity represented by changing hub configurations is self limiting; as a result, the global domain is largely protected from the danger of positive feedback - i.e., a loss of system control and potential widespread self- reinforcing destruction. In the history of the world wars, one can identify such unchecked feedback of escalating hostilities. Even in the present world, one can make a good argument that the specter of damaging positive feedback, festering in individual areas of the world - among failed governments, local armed resistance to despotic regimes, piracy, organized crime and racketeering, human trafficking - is tinder for a future conflagration."

                Let us fight together to debunk this false myth. I rated your original unique essay a full ten (10) that it deserves.

                I wish you well always,

                Leo KoGuan