John,

I approached it 'top down', so the big picture came first then the falsification; I understand what you're saying, but it looks quite different that way. The 'big picture' model I found simple and coherent said that QM should be derivable classically down to some far smaller limit. That's what my recent work shows.

If you recall that SR is resolve in the DFM by simple electron scattering to c in the ELECTRON rest frame, not some other, then you can see how the QM solution resolves with exactly the same simple coherent model. The electrons impose their will (speed and spin direction) on each tiny bit of EM wavefront that meets them.

Coming back up from the bottom I now seem to have it surrounded! But the real problem is it's entirely self consistent, which is so different to entrenched doctrine I can't see it ever being adopted! None the less I'll continue to try to find simpler explanations.

Which bits still sound incoherent to you? if any?

John C.

It works all ways; wave, particle, wavefront, torus, or spheroid, photon or electron and actually IS 'all ways' subject to viewpoint and scale!!

Perhaps best think of a 'speck' photon of energy on the surface of a causal Schrodinger sphere wavefront propagating on a helical path while also 'spinning'.

It comes across this big powerful electron, as do it's mates each side, as well as those on the waves in front and behind. The electron may be spinning on ANY axis (so also either more cw OR ccw.)

The speck of energy retains it's existence and axis (slightly 'rotated if the electron is moving sideways = KRR & aberration) but it's modulated to the ELECTRONS spin direction (cw/ccw) and speed subject to the 'latitude' (so spin speed/OAM) of the impact tangent point on the surface. So when it hits the photodetectors it trips only one, and with a 'probability rate' subject to energy.

And that's it! It can be reversed, and it's energy varies by the cosine of the angle of the electron! Shockingly that's all that's needed to reproduce QM's predictions!

Now I could run through a similar description with 'all particles' or 'all waves' to the same effect. The point is that the 'spin' is at many recursive size 'scales', and we've decoded the one at the 'scale of interest'. (that allows the 'noise in Shannon's channel to be decoded. as my previous IQbit essay).

I'm sure we are progressing, but everyone in the world has a different picture! Does that description make better sense?

best wishes

Peter

Akinbo,

Thanks. The NEW rev.B 2 page summary paper is now lodged ans should be accessible here;

Classical reproduction of quantum correlations.

Do let me know how easy it was to make sense of, or which bits you stumbled over. Thanks, and heartiest congratulations on your paper's acceptance for publication. Do post a link.

(Pilot wave theory emerges coherently there as just one typical 'scale' relationship of a whole sequence of fractal scales, applicable to that scale).

Best

Peter

Eckard,

I agree, using 'frequency' was metaphysics as time is not an entity. The scalar wavelength was the tie to reality. The 'ground state' is then the wave median, so negative values are implicit. I think a new thread's a good idea. I'm happy to discuss sensible physics anywhere. I'll put down a **MARKER HERE WITH SOME BOLD CAP'S SO IT'S EASIER TO LOCATE IN THE COMING WEEKS!!**

I think the 'probabilistic' description is a quite valid secondary one. But the failure to find a logical PRIMARY derivation of QM from classical mechanics left it as the ONLY one. I agree with Bell, "professional physicists ought to be able to do better." As I show in my IQbit essay, the Born Rule should simply allow a wave validity in 3D, which is a helix. Again missing this simple reality allowed physics deeper into the 'Wonderland' Dodgson created for Alice.

But I think we should consider all that as 'water under the bridge'. I suggest the correct solution is before us so the sooner the old nonsense is retired to history and forgotten the better. I've now condensed more into the 2 page summary, including my new finding that John Bell agreed almost the EXACT solution I've proposed, but was tripped up by just ONE wrong assumption, and missed one dynamic cosine geometry (OAM distribution with spherical latitude).

The assumption he made was that photons propagated as particles and not just their spin but their AXIS was random. That caused the problem. If the spin axis is also the propagation axis then the axis (and equatorial spin plane) are the 'entanglement', so the (Wigner'd'Espangnat) inequality he hit doesn't apply!

I hope you'll give the short summary a very careful read and rigorous criticism.

Classical reproduction of quantum correlations. Summary; B.

Best wishes

Peter

Pete,

Thanks, actually the 'speck' analogy makes more sense of your quantum/causal correlation in that it does become more mathematical than what I'd been looking for, which was more of a '3D+t' visual form. I do not think that being self consistent is a drawback, that is what is often referred to as 'bootstrapped' and lends itself to presentation as background independent or 'co-ordinate free', being that the co-ordinates can then be built within the framework of the model rather than placing the model inside a co-ordinate framework. That seemed to me to be implied in the first place. I'm becoming a bit overwhelmed again in the myriad complexity that evolves in an attempt to look inside the standard model, and even if a dynamic visual form were made theoretically possible we would probably have to track a multitude of trajectories of material points to have a 'snapshot' of inter-reactive fields. Break time, jrc

Peter,

I'm perfectly willing to go along with what you are saying, but I'm lost on a lot of it. We simply come from different situations and have different desires and goals in this quest. I spend my life dealing with large animals. They are both very conscious and very physical. That is my starting point and area of focus. They don't have religions and their politics are very elementary.

I get so I can physically read their minds, by pretty much turning mine off. They are much more thermal, ie, non-linear, than temporal/rationally linear. You just can't get too far away from the basics of energy and form.

Yet there is an incredible amount of nuance to everything about them and so trying to deal with detail is not possible. It is about surfing the wave, riding the wind and all the combinations thereof, not to mention that the wind you are riding really does have a mind of its own.

While I've been doing this for 50 years now, I'm not a big detail person. Having started out around bossy people and usually finding myself in their company and working for them, I don't stress over all the details, as my talent is just being able to stay upright and stay on. I am not reaching for the stars, simply because there is way too much happening down here on the ground and since most people seem to have their heads up in the stars, or clouds, anyway, it gives me quite a bit of room to function. I'm happy in my ignorance.

Regards,

John M

John Brodix Merryman replied on Jul. 4, 2014 @ 02:51 GMT

"I would just like to point out black holes are nonsense as well. It's a vortex. What energy doesn't get radiated away, as it spins ever tighter, gets shot out the poles!! As usual, they are only looking at half the equation, obviously the condensing/reductionistic side. What is at the center is just the eye of the storm. That's why the 'physics breaks down."

It is really not necessary to say what black holes really are, just what they are not. What black holes are not is a stopage of time and a place that sustains any outlaw theory. Black holes are simply the boson stars of the universe.There actually is a whole literature on boson stars awaiting our evolution...

    We both can believe whatever we wish because belief is very flexible and yet very necessary. Most likely is a different metric that has to do with probabilities and so is consistent with quantum action. It is very nice that you seem to follow the notion of probabilistic quantum action in the survival of the physical body.

    You will indeed make a great physics ghost.

    "You will indeed make a great physics ghost. " -- Steve Agnew.

    Lol. Maybe I'll use quantum entanglements to move things around in the kitchen. Actually, if given the chance in the afterlife, what I really want to do is move objects around on some atheist professors desk.

    Dear Peter,

    Stern-Gerlach dealt with atoms. For all those who interpreted their experiment it was quite natural that particles (fermions) don't have a preferred orientation in space. It is seemingly more natural that photons (bosons) have a natural axis of spin, their direction of motion. As usual, the most naturally seeming assumptions were not questioned. Isn't same true for the principle of relativity?

    In other words, it might not be the particles that are spinning but positive or negative spin can be attributed to the direction of quanta of energy transfer. I would like to replace the question "why quantum?" by "why quantum nonsense?", why did a seemingly natural assumption imply nonsensical and mystical theories up to Jason's ghosts?

    Regards,

    Eckard

    "I would like to replace the question "why quantum?" by "why quantum nonsense?", why did a seemingly natural assumption imply nonsensical and mystical theories up to Jason's ghosts?" -Eckard Blumschein

    Because of all of the encounters with ghosts by very believable people. Because we have to ask if ghosts are somehow compatible with quantum mechanics because people keep seeing them. Because "consciousness" is not reducible to standard model particles, not even in principle.

    By the way, to say that quantum mechanics is deterministic is deceptive. While the mathematics might be deterministic, the actual measurements are random. Honestly, that should tell you folks that something fishy is going on with quantum mechanics.

    In fact, I would even go so far as to say that consciousness has free will because QM is random.

    Steve,

    There are a lot of potentially exotic bodies out there. I just think not enough credence is given to the fact that galaxies radiate light and other forms of energy out over areas many billions of lightyears across. This would have to be accounted for, from the mass falling into them. Then that mass is coalescing back out of that energy, in an overall cycle. My suspicion is that we will eventually explain redshift as an effect of the intergalactic expansion of this radiation, balancing the mass density in overall flat space.

    As such an optical effect, it would explain why we appear at the center, without having to say space itself expands, but still assuming a constant speed of light against which to measure it, which is contradictory. Also there would be no need for dark energy, since those galaxies are not actually moving away and the curvature of the rate of expansion could be explained as a compounding effect of this redshift. Obviously no need for inflation either.

    Gravity would be an overall effect of all contraction processes, not just its own force, starting with light collapsing from waves to photons and the dark matter issue would wash out with a better understanding there.

    Obviously this is light on all the specifics, but while I might not have my nose pressed against the glass as close as many, it does get rid of most of those theoretical elements which mostly serve to bridge the many gaps between theory and observation.

    Regards,

    John M

    Peter. The NEW rev.B 2 page summary paper is still not accessible in this universe.

    Eckard, can you still find the story you posted about tailor sewing ill fitting cloth for his customer?

    Eckard,

    "...the most naturally seeming assumptions were not questioned. Isn't same true for the principle of relativity?"

    I agree, although "naturally seeming" for some may be different for others, and assuming entirely random orientation of axis but with a with motion vector and in a magnetic field is now known as simply wrong!

    Bell assumed entirely random, I invoke axial propagation but random polar 'direction' (clockwise/ anticlockwise). Only Bells assumption runs into the inequality limits!! The common axis IS then 'entanglement', and relates the relative setting angles to give the cosine distribution geometrically from a vector relationship and surface OAM distribution with latitude on a spinning Bloch sphere.

    How's your geometry? Do you understand the derivation and massive implication?

    The exact same mechanism is what renders SR consistent, the electrons scatter to the LOCAL 'c' OF THE ELECTRON REST FRAME. 'c' is universal LOCALLY, wherever light propagates and is measured' not 'universally'. That mechanism allows full unification with QM, using absolute time, but plus 'relative' speeds +/- v where propagating 'elsewhere'. Make sense now?

    Peter

    I see there's still an issue with the link. Try just pasting into Google search;

    independent.academia.edu/JacksonPeter and; clicking; Classical reproduction of quantum correlations B.

    Jason,

    Did someone suggest QM is deterministic!!?? I think you may have that wrong! Where did you see it?

    Peter,

    The summary was quite helpful when I was able to link it at last. Before discussing I must confess that I am not very interested in how QM is currently described. Using mathematical tools to create all kinds of ghostly effects like a particle being in two places at once. I am however with your efforts to explain the ghostly activities in a more classical fashion. All the best in your efforts. I have no criticism to make as such, only to ask for some education. I will seize on the paragraph:

    "Bohm's Gedanken experiment described a pair of particles, one spin 'up', one 'down'. On reaching distant separated Stern-Gerlach magnets if 'A' deflects up, 'B' goes down, ... If magnet A is rotated; the particle deflects down. The particle at B then MUST go up. Therein is the problem. If magnet A is reversed at the the last moment, how can B know without "spooky action at a distance"?

    - Is what is spin 'up' in Australia (down under, e.g. south pole), also spin 'up' in North America (e.g. North pole)? It appears some convention or agreement on what is up and what is down is needed ab-initio before sending the particles out to distant places.

    - A Stern-Gerlach magnet sitting on a laboratory desk at the North Pole is already rotated relative to the same equipment on a desk at the South Pole. So the question of reversal at the last moment is still secondary to defining unambiguously what is meant by 'up' and what is 'down'.

    - I believe that if 'up' and 'down' are unambiguously defined, reversal of magnet A at the last moment will make the spin of both particles A and B to be the same! That is both 'up' or both 'down'.

    Using mathematics and statistical experimental results to prove this so-called entanglement will have to be more rigorous to convince me, even if the establishment have agreed to live with the mystical Copenhagen interpretation. I will like to know more about this so educate me if I am wrong, but with less technical terms and abbreviations.

    Regards,

    Akinbo

    *I am posting here because the other thread getting long.

    *I also smell Newton's Absolute space in defining unequivocally what universally accepted to be Up or Down.

    Akinbo,

    Just paste this into Google etc. and click on the Popular Summary B paper;

    " Academia Classical reproduction of quantum correlations "

    I suspect whoever's tending the quantum world has spotted it and barred the link from fqXi as it's too near the mark (lol). It works fine from anywhere else!

    John,

    I do understand. I've always had close affinity with dog's. But from where I'm looking your own descriptions are complex beyond comprehension and doesn't seem to fit or emerge from so many findings the simplest most intuitive answer all comes from condensed electron modulation to the electrons own c and spin direction.

    Gravity is simply the paucity of 'dark energy' surrounding it as a 'density depression' all the time it exists as a particle. The moment it's annihilated ('evaporated') the gravity also disappears. That seems to fit all and is also how moisture droplets in the air work (the local air is 'dryer' once the droplet condenses). What's complicated?

    Akinbo,

    Spin 'up' and 'down' are both well defined and poorly explained. Consider the photon case where they may be simple polarity. All rotating entities have BOTH; i.e. Australia spins clockwise (cw) and Norway counter clockwise (ccw).

    However EPR considered a constant background or deep space. Fact is, when a particle was split and sent off opposite ways, if one was found cw, the other would be found ccw (the opposite photomultiplyer clicked).

    That was no problem. But THEN they found that if one detector field was reversed, the FINDING reversed!! (so naturally the other finding a light year away must also instantly reverse!) What's more; the 'probability' of the reversal depended on the RELATIVE settings of A and B, even though out of communications range!! Now that DID defy all possible logic. Bell's proof was absolutely irrefutable.

    They checked for all possible wrong assumptions and found none, so 'gave up'. What I now show is that there WAS a hidden false assumption, so the finding DIDN'T defy "all possible logic". Bell's a case was simply invalid. (NO quantum Physicist will accept that invalidity as they're all stuck inside that box. - you should see some of the names I've been called!) Statesticians won't accept it either as it shows their methods too imprecise.

    Copenhagen is only equivalent to the detector electrons (think eye lens coating) modulating the EM signal on absorption and re-emission (atomic scattering). (The observer is PART OF the system and influences the finding). It was only the 'interpretation' that was mystical, just like the 'interpretation' of SR's postulates.

    That one little gem then solves the paradoxes of both QM AND SR, unifying physics; Light is always found at c (a lens/antenna makes it so, and allows an 'absolute' as well as 'apparent' rates of time) and the classical mechanism produces the QM prediction (down to the next fractal quantum scale of uncertainty).

    Thanks for the response. I hope you're getting your head round it a bit more now. Did the above make sense? Anything missing?

    Best wishes

    Peter

    Yes Peter,

    I too see serious implications with our reinterpretation of Stern-Gerlach. Hopefully we will get soon rid of distracting ghosts and up-down issues. Let me just further exemplify what I meant with seemingly natural:

    Dedekind's cut - without any chance of a proof.

    Einstein's principle of relativity. Read my last essay.

    The female genetic fingerprint of NSU.

    Cold fusion

    Quantum computing

    SUSY

    Time-invariance of the laws of physics.

    Use of complex quantities as if they were real.

    Treating ict as a dimension like length

    Interpretation of bicep as evidence for BB

    In all such cases there was or at least can be a seemingly natural but possibly "hidden false assumption".

    I agree: "axial motion but random" either clockwise or anticlockwise direction of spinning. I imagine the axis belonging to the direction of motion. This implies: Without motion there is no possibility to measure a spin.

    I just don't understand why you don't accept that there might be an ideal empty space (just instantaneous distances) without any natural point of reference in which c can globally be equal to c.

    Eckard

    Eckard,

    I would agree there is a natural empty space, but that would make it infinite and absolute, ie. lacking any frame. While physics doesn't like what can't be measured, the alternative, an expanding universe/inflationary cosmology, is looking ever more absurd.

    Regards,

    John M