JRC and Steve,

I have browsed the article. Peter, click 'back to article' on top of this page. I may not make much comment because 'entropy' as a concept itself is yet to be fully understood and now trying to combine it with an equally controversial theory like QM will only lead to the invention of more mechanisms that then lead to absurdities and paradoxes. I suggest an FQXi grant be spent instead on falsifying or confirming Caroline Thompson's work. It is after this falsification and Aspect's finding passes the test then we can look at a combination of entropy with QM. But JRC, you said, "...Only in extreme cases is entropy zero". Will the beginning of the universe not be an extreme situation? If the second law holds, then the initial state will be of zero entropy. Can a state of zero entropy be a very hot thing of quantum size at 1032K temperature or was there a state before that which was of 0K, and thus zero entropy? Sorry, this is moving towards cosmology which may not belong here...

Eckard, I find that it will be useful for me to read Caroline's work again and again.

Peter, the part I agree fully with you is that, that light IN the galaxy is shifted to c wrt the galaxy rest frame. Similarly light INSIDE the heliospheric shock propagates at c wrt the sun's rest frame..., although the c's may not be of same value, which you fail to mention here although you have agreed before that your c can be any value. To make DFM progress further you must give a list of unknown, yet falsifiable claims or postulates, the finding of which means that DFM must be abandoned. JRC has asked you for one by asking, "can we divide the quantum (~h)...', which I rephrase as, if DFM admits of the photon, is it divisible? List out other claims on which a bet can be taken and on which the success or failure of DFM can rest. Don't be afraid. Einstein himself said, if it is found that space is discontinuous his whole theory of relativity would vanish in the air. He was also ready to sacrifice his special theory of relativity and said so in a quote. So, what is it that if found, DFM should be abandoned? This may give you heartache though if you lose the bet.

Regards,

Akinbo

Pete,

You asked..."Which entropy article did you mean? Have I missed a link?"

The article which is the topic of this blog. Go back to top and click the subscript to 'Why Quantum' that reads; 'Back to Article'. That's the typical format. Hope you're having good bike weather, jrc

Peter,

In order to decipher AGN as active galaxy nuclei and GBR as gamma-ray burst, I looked into http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/

Gamma_ray_burst_challenges_particle_acceleration_theories_999.html which was a pleasure to read while your statement "the 'speed' of the jets, measured trigonometrically at up to 46c" is an old misleading one. Perhaps there is no plausible argument that confirms your idea of "reemission locally at c".

I merely argue that Michelson's 1881/87 unexpected null-result is quite logical if ideally empty space does not behave like a medium; the explanation of the result does not require length contraction. I am well aware that cosmos is anything but empty, and a space that is considered empty for experiments with light may nonetheless contain static electric fields etc.. You still didn't show what could be wrong with my argument.

Already Thompson's comment 14 on her Fig. 1 revealed to me that she understood the common axis of "entangled particles". I will look for further evidence in her text. We should be happily in agreement with her, Planck, and Reiter. She dared called a spade a spade. Do you hope for compromising?

Eckard

Akinbo,

Yes you are right, this thread has gotten long in the tooth while not chewing on the topic. I think Steve Agnew summed it well, and I'm going to try to refrain from digression... with one last wild fling.

'...Will the beginning of the universe not be an extreme condition?...'

I'm not willing to close the door on the Steady State Theory, and that is currently heresy. In the 1972 3rd edition of the introductory compendium, "Asimov's Guide to Science" good ol' Isaac gives a typical thumbnail sketch in summation of Fred Hoyle's elaboration of Hermann Bondi and Thomas Gold's development, that states that current estimates at that time of the expansion rate of the observable universe would require an undetectable mass quantity to evolve in the continual creation model. The energy creation would amount as equivalent to one simple hydrogen atom per year, per one billion litres of space. Given the 'dark energy' conundrum of more recent times, and the contributions by Hoyle to the evolutionary production of isotopes heavier than Helium, I think a renewed look at Hoyle and company is rational and warranted. And it raises the question as to whether entropy is only a quantum macroscopic phenomenon.

I bow now to the statisticians, jrc

It is very correct to say that an expanding universe is a universe with more states and with more entropy. Likewise, with a shrinking universe, states disappear and entropy decreases.

My universe is a shrinking universe and the red shift of Hubble is due to a concerted change in three constants with time: c, h, and alpha. The shrinking universe is a nice alternative to expansion and makes a lot more sense for entropy.

All the way from universe voids, galaxy superclusters, galaxies, stars, planets, moons, asteroids, and comets, there is an increasing order in the universe, not an increasing disorder. A shrinking universe is consistent with increasing order.

Trying to use entropy to show why the universe is the way it is, i.e. quantum, seems like a standard researchy way to do a lot of complex math that ends up proving very little and risking very little as well. The universe is the way it is...that is clear. Quantum action works and thermodynamics works and so these are both how the universe works. If they were not consistent with each other, that would be very surprising.

What we really need to know is how better to predict action with the laws we can know and not worry about what we can never know. Better thing to do would be to prove how to make quantum gravity states and therefore complete the entropy count of states. We know without a quantum gravity that we are missing many states and so entropy is incomplete and thermodynamics is incomplete in our cosmology.

Akinbo Ojo replied on Jul. 14, 2014 @ 20:02 GM

"I have browsed the article. Peter, click 'back to article' on top of this page. I may not make much comment because 'entropy' as a concept itself is yet to be fully understood and now trying to combine it with an equally controversial theory like QM will only lead to the invention of more mechanisms that then lead to absurdities and paradoxes."

Oh my goodness sakes almighty...entropy as a concept is very well defined. It is the logarithm of the number of states available to the system. Now, the number of state of a system is perhaps not always very well understood, especially gravity states. Quantum states, however, are very well defined. People just don't want to believe them.

In thermodynamics, it is actually the density of states or the heat capacity of a substance that is most important, not really the entropy or free enthalpy per se. That is, heat capacity determines both entropy and enthalpy and so it is heat capacity that is the empirical function fit that we use all of the time for complex systems.

Quantum action is very compatible with thermodynamics because the partition functions are so well defined and partition functions are how you do everything in statistical mechanics. The particle in a box is a standard quantum description of the states in space and is very nice. Gravity in a box has no simple partition function.

Once again, the theme of this essay is specious. I do not like to be critical of these sorts of things, but really...using the universe as thermodynamics to prove that the universe is the way it is as quantum action does not seem very useful. The universe is the way it is. Period.

Hi Steve,

It's nice to hear that a physicist is examining a model by changing the physics constants. It's refreshing and it should offer you insight into deeper levels of physics.

I'm sorry but I can't help you find a better way to predict action. I am of the opinion that some of the phenomena of nature is impossible to predict. It is my belief that physics might find inspiration in the following point of view. Think of mathematical physics as being like accounting. Increasing levels of mathematical development will give diminishing returns. There comes a time when you have to get down to the paper currency. In the case of physics, I believe that wave-functions come the closest to describing some kind of aether. This aether fills everything and all of space, it's what is actually real and fundamental. I think this aether, this quantum field wave-function aether is somehow imprinted with the speed of light. That is, the speed of light is somehow built into it. I'm sorry that leads to a path that may as well go up the side of an impossibly high cliff. But I think it's the best option. :)

You may be interested to know that your questions do help me refine my quantumology. Science by and large says the unanswerable questions are not worth answering. However, religion and philosophy spend great resources on answering the unanserable questions and then arguing further about the answers.

Needless to say, we humans have a built-in intuition about the world that generally works very well. However, the particulars of the universe are somewhat different from our intuition and so that causes some people to despair.

Although quantum action is often considered odd, I think that gravity action is by far the oddest of the two. However, our intuition and our beliefs all tend to favor the determinism of gravity action. It is clear to me that quantum action is the way and science needs to find a way to interpret gravity as quantum action.

There are so many issues that are off right now in the twilight of gravity action that something will happen shortly to correct this mess.

jrc, Peter,

Thomas Gold was definitely correct concerning active outer hair cells, cf. my second essay "Galilei, Gold, Ren - votes for realism".

Meanwhile I looked again into Thompson's paper and tend to partially support Peter's claim for priority.

While she attributed entanglement in her abstract to "shared information from the source", explained that "the „hidden variable" lambda is simply the polarization detection", and pointed out that she "inherited [the obvious to me] mistake [in Fig. 1] from Bohm, she didn't provide a immediately persuading metaphor.

I didn't check what she called "assumptions and consequent possible realist explanations ... explored already by people such as Marshall, Santos and Selleri2, Gilbert and Sulcs3 and Wesley4" because I consider these experts too academic as to distinguish between x and r and see the simplest solution to the mysteries:

"2 Marshall, T W, E Santos and F Selleri: "Local Realism has not been Refuted by Atomic-Cascade Experiments", Physics Letters A98, 5-9 (1983)

3 Gilbert, B and S Sulcs: "The measurement problem resolved and local realism preserved via a collapse-free photon detection model", Foundations of Physics 26, 1401 (1996)

4 Wesley, J P: "Experimental Results of Aspect et al Confirm Classical Local Causality", Physics

Essays 7, 240 (1994)"

Eckard

If I understand what quantum action means from this definition,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwinger%27s_quantum_action_principle

and I probably don't, but it sounds like it's saying there is a field source that can transition a quantum system from a set of states |A> to another set of states |B>. But you want to interpret gravity as a quantum action? Is that correct?

Steve,

I agree that our "Science by and large says the unanswerable questions are not worth answering."

But do you not think that might just be because our science has developed with only the answers we have not those we don't? (i.e. 'ignorance is bliss').

To most race car drivers, how the engine works is immaterial as long as it does. Only the mechanic know how it works and he knows that ultimately that's really everything (unless we're horse & cart fans!)

Peter

Eckard,

"partially support Peter's claim for priority" I don't 'claim priority' as I don't think that way. I only seek to expose truth, and for the benefit of man, not me. I really wish Caroline HAD found the full solution, however she was a statistician. She found all that approach could reveal but the answer was only discernible via dynamic geometry and assembling a number of components from physics, optics and photonics.

I also don't have your skills or use 'cherry picking' to suit a pet theory. If you took my advice you'd see that apparently superluminal jets are ubiquitous and consistent. It's the other nonsensical 'explanations' you found a "pleasure to read" that are fallacious mainstream nonsense. NASA themselves, showing honesty, have just reported another one of hundreds.

Meyer E.T. et al. NASA. Also see;

Cabrera et al. 2013.

"Implies real superluminal motion' Thulasidas 2013.

And even the Astronomer Royal! in many papers since Rees, M., Cosmic Jets., 1985

What has NOT existed is a 'consistent relativistic explanation'. Pretending the findings themselves don't exist has been a popular reaction, but only mainstream fools take that in. But having a pet theory to support also makes it easy to fool ourselves. I hope you don't. Similarly with your hypothesis. We should try to falsify not construct support! EM fields (electrons) as well as the gases couple strongly with EM energy (light) so though your idea was interesting and original thinking it really doesn't seem at all viable. The 'extinction distance' (old state for modulated state) is only a few kiloparsecs (i.e. recently found at 2.3 in an open cluster); your link texthttp://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.1109.pdf

Even allowing for the rife misinterpretation of findings there really are scores more similar effects and findings in astrophysics that make it a non-starter.

I've never managed to find a copy of Wesley's paper. It seems censored! so perhaps he DID also find the solution!

Best wishes

Peter

JC,

I'm with you. I'm no Eddington fan. In cyclic cosmology entropy is trivial. The cup was originally many particles and will be again before they're something else. That's eternity for you!. We could look at it the other way; Ultimately they may even get messed up so much they'll look like a cup again!

But the 'Law of the reducing middle' says never one 'exactly' the same!

I think that whole tack is a waste of time. What we call in international yacht racing a 'tack to oblivion'. Nothing useful can come of it. If random particles can self organise into a helix (as they do in AGN's an nuclear tokamaks) then Popper must be correct; the whole concept was false from it's shallow 'foundations' in the mire. We have no clue how many 'states' are really possible.

Best wishes

(P.S. I like 6).

LET US SUBJECT QUANTUM MECHANICS TO EDDINGTON'S TEST!

Since Barrett and Leifer believe in Sir Arthur Eddington's advice to assess the credibility of a proposed new model of physics (see article), let us subject Quantum mechanics to Eddington's test:

"...if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation."

The indivisibility of the photon, although nowhere expressly stated as a postulate of Quantum mechanics, is fully implied and is high up there in the Copenhagen temple. That is why a photon hitting a half-silvered mirror cannot have half of it transmitted and half-reflected, but must be transmitted or reflected whole. To make this theoretical idea work and conform with experimental findings it has led to the introduction of probability amplitudes (50:50), and from this being in two-places at once, entanglement, etc. Note that the wave-picture does not require any improvised mechanisms to be half-transmitted and half-reflected at a half-silvered mirror.

Let us consider the relationship between the Sun and Earth. Here I quote Roger Penrose 1 to make things authoritative:

"The light from the sun brings energy to the earth in a comparatively low-entropy form, namely in the photons of visible light. The earth, including its inhabitants, does not retain this energy, but (after some while) re-radiates it all back into space. However, the re-radiated energy is in a high-entropy form, namely what is called 'radiant heat' - which means infra-red photons". Penrose goes on to explain, since visible light photons has higher frequency and thus higher energy than infra-red photons, "...there must be fewer visible-light photons reaching the earth than there are infra-red ones leaving the earth, so that the energy coming in to the earth balances that leaving it".

This conforms with the second law of thermodynamics.

If photon number is not conserved and the earth can transform fewer photons into a larger number, what then is the reason for this insistence that a half-silvered mirror cannot transform a single photon into two, one transmitted and the other reflected? Is it justified to subject physics to the numerous absurdities and paradoxes, all because of the obstinate clinging to a postulate which as I have explained does not even appear to pass Sir Arthur Eddington's test and in his words should have collapsed in deepest humiliation? Or does the postulate pass the test?

I will therefore urge Jon Barrett and Matt Leifer to spend part of the $120,000 FQXi grant to consider and answer the question whether the postulate of photon indivisibility passes Sir Arthur Eddington's test. Secondly, to use part of their time to do an open, non-anonymous peer-review of late Caroline Thompson's papers and report publicly. That is the least she deserves.

Regards,

Akinbo

1Roger Penrose, The Emperor's New Mind, p.413 and Fig.7.7

*Thanks to JRC and Steve for bringing me and us back on track of the blog topic.

    Let us be careful not to confuse 'Quantum' = h; with 'Photon' =hv. While also being aware of the common use of 'quantum' simply to distinguish from the fuzzy quasi-differentiated matter state expressed as a continuous function via the inverse square law of interaction. Hence the use of 'heat capacity' as a measure of number of states in classical mechanics.

    Steve, would you please elaborate on how heat capacity correlates to Quantum states? jrc

      • [deleted]

      I am convinced that you are searching in the right direction.

      * the Born rule,

      * the no-go theorems of quantum mechanics,

      * the time-symmetry of weak measurement and, nevertheless, the impossibility of using weak measurement apparent retrocausality so as to get information about a future strong measurement outcome (cf. Can a Future Choice Affect a Past Measurement's Outcome? Yakir Aharonov, Eliahu Cohen, Doron Grossman, Avshalom C. Elitzur (Sep 2012) http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6224 )

      * the strong links between quantum theory predictions, bayesian inference, maximum entropy approach and irreversible phenomena (cf. the entropic dynamics approach to quantum theory of David T. Johnson and Ariel Caticha http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.2550v1)

      * the strong link between the lack of information of an observer and the emergence of time (Von Neumann Algebra Automorphisms and Time-Thermodynamics Relation in General Covariant Quantum Theories, A. Connes, C. Rovelli http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9406019)

      * the strong link between the irreversible diffusion of information in the environment of an observed system and the emergence of a classical world (Environment as a Witness: Selective Proliferation of Information and Emergence of Objectivity in a Quantum Universe Harold Ollivier, David Poulin, Wojciech H. Zurekhttp://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0408125 )

      All that seems to suggest the relevance of your aim of embedding the second principle of thermodynamics as one of the building blocks of quantum mechanics.

      Jason,

      As to quantum action...you can read or download Max Planck's lecture (it's brief) on the Origins of the Quantum Theory at; http://www.-history.mcs.st-and-ac.uk/Extras/Planck_quantum_theory.html

      It's packed with his references to relevant works of other notables of the era, and is an easy to read English text. It will perhaps help learning the jargon that gets a bit lost in popular translations. Don't worry though, everybody has that problem, as things go on meanings of definitions conform to new thinking. jrc

      Hi John,

      I really wish we could explore this stuff with our imagination. While I do believe in spirits and souls, just the idea of trying to justify it in terms of physics helps to understand the nuances. For instance, if we treat a soul as something that experiences things, then we could argue that the soul can experience all of the eigenstates of a quantum system. Since the whole biological cell, or a much larger organism, has lots of eigenstates that can be experienced, then it really comes down the how sharp is the consciousness that experiences these things. If a consciousness can experience eigenstates, then it should be able to move those eigenstates from a starting piont |A> to a final point |B>. Depending upon what the consciousness is trying to do, this might be very easy and fun or very difficult or impossible. For instance, pushing those eigenstates into a configuration that produces a momentum in one direction might almost violate laws of entropy, and so it would be very challenging. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

      Just to use a little bit more imagination, does dark matter exist as some real particle? Are there particles out there that are waiting to be added to the standard model? I think about the molecules of the biological cells. There are receptors made of proteins that react to other protein molecules to change the configurations of other protein molecules. Molecular proteins would certainly have a wave-function associated with it. While all of these molecules lend themselves to wave-functions and eigenstates, I wonder if there is any way to squeeze a darkmatter particle into the eigenstates in such a way as to exert control over the randomness. It's just a thought.

      Jason Mark Wolfe replied on Jul. 15, 2014 @ 08:12 GMT "it sounds like it's saying there is a field source that can transition a quantum system from a set of states |A> to another set of states |B>. But you want to interpret gravity as a quantum action? Is that correct?"

      Okay, first of all, do you understand action? Then do you understand the difference between gravity action and quantum action? The universe is full of strange and mystical things and the mathematics of the universe is the most mystical of all mysticisms.

      Action is a term that describes how objects move around in space over time, but action can equivalently describe how objects change their matter over time as well. Since a change in velocity is equivalent to a change in mass, changes in object masses also describe their motions in space.

      Currently science uses two somewhat inconsistent actions to predict the futures of objects in time, gravity and quantum, but the eventual goal of science is to describe all action as quantum. Quantum action is largely about the behavior of microscopic matter and is much less intuitive than gravity action at all scales.

      Quantum action depends on matter or mass as well as on something called phase and coherence. The interference effects of light are due to light's phase as well as light's amplitude and so light gives us polarization and partial reflection. Yet these coherent effects occur to some extent for all objects of matter, not just for light.

      Quantum action is often called odd although its application has been extraordinarily successful for all predictions of action. However, quantum predictions are always probabilistic and uncertain and sometimes matter waves show correlated or coherent effects that even entangle different locations in space. Even for a highly local matter wave there is still some quantum uncertainty, which bothers many people, and so when that quantum uncertainty involves locations across the universe, people get even more uncomfortable.

      The basic equation of quantum action is the Schrödinger equation, but it is not clear that you are ready for differential equations. You are more into intuition and reasoning. Suffice it to say that quantum action always has finite steps or states in all motion and all bonding. Currently, the gravity action of general relativity is continuous and that simply is incompatible with quantum action.

      Science knows that this is a problem but has been unable to come up with a unified theory. This is very disappointing to me and science should have solved this many years ago.