Why Quantum?

It is my hope that some day, maybe in a few centuries, that scientists will be able to unlock some mechanisms hidden deeper within this invisible space-time geometry and quantum vacuum. Perhaps some mechanism that sets the speed of light. I would love to see the day when physicists can learn to control the speed of light in a vehicular sort of way.

Akinbo,

If you're not familiar with the 'amplituhedron', it provides a close and (I find) compelling representation of the hierarchical 'fractal gauge' dynamics I invoke.

Amplituhedron.

It's based on much evidence. Can you see it's logic? Might it be a valid tool in describing hierarchical dynamics?

If you like stuff a bit more extreme, have you seen how central the top Lockheed Martin scientist considers the propagation of electrons with motion?

Boyd Bushman On Antigravity. There are other video's showing his theories experimentally confirmed, but mainstream theorists can't rationalise it so ignore it! (as the US government wants).

Best wishes

Peter

Peter,

I became lost in the argument, the moment you said, "Earth then has a 370km/s speed THROUGH THE LOCAL BARYCENTRIC (SUN) REST FRAME" and "The 370km/s is Earth's speed wrt our OWN star, NOT any others!", which I was hoping was a typo on your part but it appears it was not.

Take a listen..., p.4

"By far the largest signal in the microwave background anisotropy is the dipole, recently measured by WMAP (Bennett et al. 2003b) to be (3.346 В± 0.017) mK in the direction (l = 263o.85В± 0.o1, b = 48o.25В± 0.04) in Galactic coordinates. This is nearly two orders of magnitude larger than the root-mean-square (rms) anisotropy in the dipole subtracted sky, and so thought not to be of cosmological origin, but rather to be caused by the motion of the solar system with respect to the rest frame defined by the CMB. As shown by Peebles & Wilkinson (1968), the dipole induced by a velocity v is T(v/c) cos Оё, where Оё is measured from the direction of motion. Given T = (2.725В± 0.002) K (Mather et al. 1999), one infers that v в‰ѓ 370 kmsв€'1.

You or some other member in good standing may want to suggest CMB as an idea for a blog post or a new forum thread, 2014 being the 50th anniversary of its discovery. It is worth celebrating!

Regards,

Akinbo

*I will see the Amplituhedron link. Has a nice picture and could be interesting.

*Tom appears to be chuckling offline at that error.

I don't have much quarrel with your post on Jul. 30, 2014 @ 17:28 GMT. In the paper you linked, "The heliosphere is situated near the inside edge of an interstellar cloud and the two move past each other at a velocity of 50,000 miles per hour. This motion creates a wind of neutral interstellar atoms blowing past Earth, of which helium is the easiest to measure,..". This may be a distraction. The 50,000 miles per hour comes to a mere 22.3km/s compared to the 370km/s if that is what you have in mind.

Do you believe in multiverses of the type that ours is moving with respect to another and that other os in turn moving with respect to yet another, etc? There must be some limit to absurdity on the smallest and largest of scales. At the smallest, we have the 'extended point or monad', at the largest a finite universe (with CMB as trace marker), not moving with respect to any other thing.

Regards,

Akinbo

Akinbo,

Yes I see my error; Earth's speed is 30.3kps, but my point is valid despite the typo. Copi and most identified a CMB dipole from 'A' rest frame not 'THE ONLY' rest frame. The frame used is NOT valid from Earth, as we must add or subtract up to 30.3kps, then also add or subtract the orbital/rotational velocity of the telescope.

The 'Solar system' is considered, correctly, as a unique bulk 'system' with it's own rest frame, doing 370kps wrt the rest frame of the galactic region which a was picked at the nominal dipole rest frame.

The point is even clearer when considering greater scales. i.e. that selected CMB rest frame is itself travelling at great speed wrt The Andromeda galaxy, which has it's own based on it's centre of mass (unless you wish to claim they use ours!)

Now look back to Smoot's Nobel paper and later Planck findings; The fact the solar system is doing '370kps wrt the CMB' is only LOCALLY relevant. The galaxy itself has a local velocity wrt the Local Group (LG) and the LG also has a velocity wrt the cluster and LOCAL CMB! Smoot found that ('vLG') as ~627kps. The cluster also has a speed in it's own surrounds, etc. etc. even the filaments 'move' and rotate! There are two ways of looking at everything but only one is logically consistent! - and it's 'hierarchical'.

I agree; "There must be some limit to absurdity on the smallest and largest of scales." Indeed. I thought you'd read the cyclic evolution paper which painstakingly presents the overwhelming evidence, consistent with the latest 'cosmic cartography' video I posted. The centre of this universe also has a centre-of-mass rest frame (possibly at the 'great attractor'). If you can explain infinity then the hierarchy may be infinite. If you can explain it stopping then it can stop!

The LT paper gives the lower limit for matter, which is the single quanta max density or min wavelength gamma (the plasma limit). If we accept dark energy as in the a standard model of cosmology we have to accept a condensate, so some 'sub' matter energy state (~70% of the universe no less!) but I don't propose then EM propagation speed can be modulated (to local c) by anything below it's min wavelength gamma.

So we need to talk of 'local' CMB dipole, and 'domain limits', as Scott & Smoot and the smartest in astronomy, even without the DFM's rationalisation of local

Peter,

To be sincere I see you as a honest toiler after the truth. Your nemesis is that DFM is in my opinion too ambitious a project. Seeking to 'join up' all of physics. In my view I think it better to take care of the small fundamental things and the big things will take care of themselves. But DFM wants to take care of quantum correlations and also explain astrophysical jets! I can only encourage you but to actually make impact it may be wise also to focus intensely one small falsehood in physics and resolve. I know this piecemeal method may not be to your liking.

Now to the matter at hand, from a reference book in front of me: The solar sysem is located about 25000 l.years from the galaxy center, it revolves around this centre at a speed 225km/s, making one turn in 200x10^6 years.

Then the solar system velocity relative to the microwave background radiation is 380km/s towards a point at RA = 18.5H, D = +30, in the Leo constellation.

What Copi and previous workers found is an anisotropy which was dipole in nature, i.e. red in one direction and blue in the opposite. Of course, this finding was from the earth's frame. If it is then assumed to be due to observer motion at 370km/s, and we transform to the CMB frame by masking out the dipole anisotropy, all other irregularities (anisotropies) were very small in comparison, hence the initial statement that CMB was perfectly smooth after the correction. As you pointed out however, this has now being found not to be absolutely so. Let us leave the explanation for another blog.

As to the ('vLG') as ~627kps, since we are part of the ship, it is irrelevant to us. We partake of it. The CMB-centric motion has already accounted for it (I may be wrong). W don't partake of the CMB motion, but we partake of the other motions. CMB is fom outside our ship and has not been tied to any ship in the hierarchy. But humans are moving on a ship called earth, the earth is moving in a ship called the solar system. The solar system is moving in a ship called the Milky way. The milky way is moving about the Local group and we also partake of all these. It is the NET that the CMB is showing us. And if our instruments are fine enough we may even be able to see the tiny anisotropies due to these our other motion in ships within ship.

From all indications so far the CMB sits at the top of the hierarchy as far as motion is concerned but I know you may not agree yet if the CMB is of cosmological origin at a beginning and is present in ALL of space, not 100% uniform but fairly close giving what your astrophysical jets keep shooting out, I think to a large extent it satisfies Newton's position. After all, in SR, it is fundamental that electromagnetic phenomena CANNOT, repeat CANNOT, tell an observer he is moving, (i.e. what speed, which direction, whether you are stationary, etc). That is the meaning of the CSL that most misinterpret. The CMB has falsified all of that. Back to Newton!

Akinbo

Akinbo,

Newton's error emerges by splashing his bucket with water as it spins. If the drops fall off vertically he's correct, if they're thrown outwards the DFM is correct. Once the bucket and water within it spin in unison they are in the same frame and the 'background' to the contents becomes the same as for the bucket; It's the carriage of the train you're doing the experiment in.

Whether or not the train is moving (rectilearly) or the planet you're on is spinning, or orbiting, etc, is entirely irrelevant to the bucket and it's LOCAL BACKGROUND. Only the LOCAL background is ever valid for determining propagation speed. Neither Newton or SR were then complete. The DFM simply completes both them and QM. We now know the galaxy spins "in lockstep" (SciAm editors words not mine), so not as individual bodies but as a 'dinner plate' complete with the local halo and Interstellar Medium (ISM) rest frame through and wrt which light propagates locally at c. Thus the red and blue shifts.

Of course there's a centre of (finite) universe rest frame, but that has no validity as a basis to the LOCAL propagation speed of WEM fluctuations. That's exactly the same as sound. 'Speed' is only a local and relative concept.

I understand your view on increments. I tried that for many years and it didn't work. People just invoke current peripheral beliefs to dismiss the most solid evidence and logic. For each one knocked down 3 others pop up if no fundamental rationale stops them! An ontology can only defeat myth as an ontology. I agree it's too much of a step for most to countenance in our current state of intellectual evolution but it is what it is.

Your view that it's "too ambitious a project" identifies the comprehension gap. many realise that when we DO 'crack the code' of what's really going on, then the consistent physics will all flood out. That's what's happened. I'm not "trying to do" anything! - 'seeking truth' is the task any more, I'm landed with the task of 'explaining it' so just have to find the best way.

I am indeed overwhelmed by the coherent resolutions flooding out. I feel like the boy with his finger in the dyke. Nobody took any notice so I had to let some out, now it's a gaping hole and uncontrollable flood! Many will 'drown' if the fundamental rationale isn't understood.

Most of the papers do still only deal with small aspects. The 'master' paper is only being developed slowly, waiting for the right time and 'approach' once I find it. All the eminent's were right; A "new way of thinking" about the universe is needed. To me rationalising 'thinking' is a far trickier task then rationalising nature! I thought you were grasping it a few times, but slipped back to other assumptions. But there's no panic. I hope it's inevitable, if we survive our currently fatal stupidities!

Best wishes

Peter

Steve,

An interesting view here that plasma self organisation doesn't conflict with maximum entropy. The fundamental are consistent with the DFM dynamic so we may both be partly correct but possibly also a little too hasty and missing options.

Z. Yoshida and S. M. Mahajan. Self-organization in foliated phase space: Construction of a scale hierarchy by adiabatic invariants of magnetized particles. Prog. Theor. Exp. Phys. (2014) 2014: 073J01.

Views?

Akinbo,

The hierarchical 'scale ordered' structure consistent with findings is invoked again.

Best wishes

Peter

Peter,

You brought up an interesting perspective that perhaps in Newton's bucket experiment the surrounding air could be a participant in the proceedings. It is food for thought. Nevertheless, if infinity exists only in the minds of mathematicians and the universe is not infinite then there must be an end to the hierarchy story.

What lies above the CMB structure? That is, is it moving and if it is with respect to what?

I will also want to know if you have counter-arguments point by point to Newton's arguments from properties, causes and effects in section 5.2-4 and in his Scholium, especially X that falsify or nullify his position.

To quote one paraphrase from the Stanford entry...

Reasoning: From the property, the [relative] motion of a body out of a given place is only part of the motion of the body if the place in question is itself in motion. The complete and true motion of the body consists of its motion relative to the moving place added vectorially to whatever motion the place may have. Should the place be moving relative to a place which is in turn moving, then the motion of that place must be added, and so on. Barring infinite regress, the sum must terminate with a motion relative to a stationary place.

Are you saying DFM advocates infinite regress? The assignment Newton has given you is to tell us what structure lies above the Galaxy clusters or whatever you have above that. If you don't know then the honest thing is to admit the possibility that there may be a limit at the top of your hierarchy ladder.

Regards,

Akinbo

Akinbo,

Newton knew that; "..and so on" was infinite regress so clearly had to identify a finite alternative. He didn't claim infinite regress was impossible (nor can we).

His omission (as outside the bucket) is assuming some "TRUE" motion without then properly defining the implicit "untrue" motion! Also not defining; "stationary". (i.e. wrt what?) in; "relative to a stationary place." He knew he hadn't rationalised the whole big picture, which is why he happily ultimately invoked "God". His "true motion" could only be wrt 'God!'.

He may have been right that there IS some ultimate rest frame. As I've said many times, we can't know. However we CAN better rationalise the different 'categories' of motion, with discrete field dynamics;

As Einstein recognised; LOCALLY there only RELATIVE motion. However Einstein then also missed the real truth of his 'local reality' conception; Inertial systems really are MORE 'real' and 'local' than he realised! Galileo's inertial systems are REAL SYSTEMS OF MATTER WITH SPATIAL LIMITS! But (the tricky bit to first see) they're 'hierarchical' so really ARE the "Spaces within spaces" he described in 1952. Newton's "immobile absolute space" is invalid whether ultimately right or wrong.

It needs the different view i.e; If you're ON a train which is not accelerating, the laws of physics and speed of light are ALL THE SAME as they are in any other train, car, planet or galaxy wrt ONLY to the LOCAL BACKGROUND. Any 'ultimate' rest frame has no local validity for the propagation speed limit c. (exactly as his postulates imply!)

Once that concept is understood and rationalised, along with the speed CHANGE to maintain local c within all local frames ('re-scattering to c') the lights go on, windows open and the whole logical picture of nature comes flooding in, literally washing away ALL (dozens of) anomalies and paradoxes. Pick any you like and run a test.

But no. It can't tell us if the whole fractal pattern ultimately 'stops' anywhere or not. No theory or model can do that on the evidence we available to us. Certainly our universe is finite with a 'centre of mass' rest frame just like an electrons, but the whole Cosmos? Our brains can't conceive infinity. Each of us must still decide if he believes in a God.

Peter

Peter, a well considered reply. So whether or not infinite regress obtains with respect to motion are both possibilities. Fine enough. There are other lines of attack formulated by Newton to make a choice...

(paraphrasing from same reference) Newton illustrates with an example. Imagine a pair of globes, connected by a cord, revolving about their common center of gravity. The endeavor of the globes to recede from the axis of motion is revealed by the tension in the cord, from which the quantity of circular motion can be estimated. Furthermore, whether the direction of their revolution is clockwise or counterclockwise CAN be detected by applying forces to opposite faces of the globes to see whether the tension in the cord increases or decreases. All this can be done in empty space where no other bodies (of reference) are present to serve as points of reference.

Suppose now that, in addition to the globes, there is a second system of bodies maintaining fixed positions with respect to one another (for example, the fixed stars). If the two systems are in a state of relative rotation to each other, (i.e. the globes and the system of fixed stars), one cannot gauge from just the relative rotation of both systems, which, if either, is at rest. However, from the tension in the cord connecting globes, one CAN establish whether the relative rotation is due entirely to the absolute rotation of the system of globes. Supposing so, the second system of bodies can then be exploited to provide an alternative technique for determining whether the globes revolve in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction--one simply consults the direction of rotation relative to the stationary system.

At this point Newton cuts off the Scholium, explaining that the whole point of having written the treatise to follow is to show how to infer the true motions from their causes, effects, and apparent differences, and conversely the causes and effects from either the true or the apparent motions.

"...speed of light are ALL THE SAME as they are in any other train, car, planet or galaxy wrt ONLY to the LOCAL BACKGROUND"

The catch is that LOCAL BACKGROUNDS are not all the same. It thus follows that the measured value of speed of light will vary from place to place.

Maybe more later.

Regards,

Akinbo

Akinboo,

Were you after the flaws in Newtons description or those in your analysis?

Newton assumed no quantum vacuum, pair production or bow shocks. Each globe will have an ionospheric bow shock, as Earth's, so a detectable 'direction' in the 'ambient medium' frame (the ubiquitous description of the local QV rest frame).

His second error was assuming either clockwise or anticlockwise rotation. That's the simple 'self centric view' error. There's no such 'objective' thing. Go round to the other side of a pair apparently rotating clockwise to YOU and look again. NOW tell me which way they rotate! That's the glimpse of non-self centric thinking I gave in my essay (there's no 'up' in space!).

No system of stars some distance away can change the rotation velocity of the spheres WHATEVER they do. An experiment proves it. Spin a 10cm long yo-yo in one hand. Now also spin 2m long yo-yo outside it. Does the latter affect the former in ANY way? Of course not. It's the same in air or the ISM. "Speed"

Chemists are witnessing spirits of the deceased.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rolf-froboese/scientists-find-hints-for-the-immortality-of-the-soul_b_5499969.html

Stefan,

"What do you think about expanding spaces?", "But where does this happen? Does it happen in the empty space near our moon, means in our direct neighbourhood, or somewhat only at the "end" of the universe?"

This is an issue worth looking at by the establishment. It may also be relevant to this 'Why Quantum' blog from which we have digressed. I had earlier asked Peter his favorite mechanism of what prevents the 'wedding' of the earth and the moon despite the longstanding affection between them of over a billion years. I was not altogether satisfied with his favorite mechanism. I suspect the same ghost, (apologies to Jason), may be preventing weddings on the quantum scale (e.g. between the electron and nucleus in an hydrogen atom) and not the improvised stationary waves, exclusion principle, etc. Most cosmologists who support expansion believe it is occurring at all scales. That is, matter is not just spreading out into previously non-existent space, but space is being created at least between galactic clusters, (even if there are still debate at lower scales).

Peter,

"Newton assumed no quantum vacuum, pair production or bow shocks. Each globe will have an ionospheric bow shock, as Earth's, so a detectable 'direction' in the 'ambient medium' frame (the ubiquitous description of the local QV rest frame)... ","No system of stars some distance away can change the rotation velocity of the spheres WHATEVER they do."

In other words, your description admits that it is not necessary to make reference to another body in order to have as a fact 'a direction of motion'. That is the true motion Newton is talking about, as opposed to the motion of Leibniz and Mach, which deny that there is such a thing as motion without reference to another body relative to which you are moving.

Paraphrasing Newton: "In contrast, because the parts of absolute space are not directly accessible to the senses (which was the case in 1687), it is very difficult but not impossible to ascertain the true motion of individual bodies and to discriminate them in practice from the apparent/ relative motions. That is, were I, Newton aware that 300 years later space would have properties and phenomena that would make parts of it directly accessible to the senses and instruments, there would have been no doubting the fact that true motion exists independent of any reference frame".[section 5.4].

His second error was assuming either clockwise or anticlockwise rotation. That's the simple 'self centric view' error. There's no such 'objective' thing. Go round to the other side of a pair apparently rotating clockwise to YOU and look again. NOW tell me which way they rotate!

When I went round to the other side there was no difference. They were still rotating clockwise!

Regards,

Akinbo

Akinbo,

Damn little arrow cut my post in half!; "Speed" is only limited to 'c' wrt the LOCAL background, so the only 'proper' speed is 'propagation' speed. The relative speed of light passing BY you in the opposite direction IS then c+v, as your intuition tells you (and as FTL quasar jets only 'measured' trigonometrically). Light only converts to YOUR max speed 'c' if it meets you and presents itself for 'measurement' (interaction and computation), but only if you or the lens are made of matter.

All that was in my prev 3 (finalist) essays - which you said you'd read! Your 'catch' then doesn't exist (oh ye of little faith!). You clearly cant measure a propagation speed until it's arrived and is propagating in YOUR rest frame! That's why you will ALWAYS find 'c', but Doppler shifted if you're also moving in the propagating medium.

That's a perfect example of my point about the 'ontological construction'. You forgot one central part so immediately jumped to the false conclusion that there was a 'catch'. Nature's like a jigsaw puzzle it needs ALL the pieces to reveal the coherent picture!

Can you see that picture yet?

Peter

Jason,

The mechanism has already been unlocked. Summarised briefly here lest you didn't understand the essay; It's essentially a hierarchy; spin within spin within spin, of quanta condensed from the dark energy condensate.

Classical reproduction of quantum correlations.

Let me know if it's clear and obvious. It seems the greatest problem with tripping over the bucket of grail is recognising what it is!

But the superluminal buses are still some time away it seems.

best wishes

Peter

Stefan,

A more consistent model than the big bang is described here, resolving anomalies instead of generating them. It's a cyclic process, eternally repeating, and more a big 'whoosh'.

A Cyclic model of Galaxy Evolution, with Bars. Accepted; HJ Vol.6 2014.

Expanding 'spaces' in the Smoot sense emerge as entirely superfluous in that model. Boundary transition zones ('near-far field TZ') of scattering particles between linear motions work just fine to implement all observations and the SR postulates (freed of nonsense and QM compatible). The TZ's are the astrophysical shocks (dense 2-fluid plasma) found around all matter moving through the local ambient medium. (preferred frames but LOCAL, so 'hierarchical' not 'absolute' as in 'one only'.) That's 'discrete field' dynamics, or the 'DFM'.

Best wishes

Peter

Peter,

You haven't heard? The aliens landed with their FTL capable spacecrafts! They use special crystals to change the physics constant, the speed of light, on the outside of their spacecraft to achieve superluminal speeds. They apply an electrical current into the FTL crystal to get it to generate a field that changes the speed of light.

I'm just having a little fun. I'll take a look at the Gerlach experiment and your paper this evening. Hope all is well.

Jason

Peter,

There was an Erratum in my reply on Aug. 5, 2014 @ 18:58 GMT. Yes, going to 'the other side' may see things differently, i.e. clockwise rotation can appear anti-clockwise, but it depends...

The situation requires more information to describe properly. If you were standing atop the rotating object (standing meaning your legs being nearer than your head to the rotating object, then going to the other side and ALSO standing, WILL NOT not affect which way they rotate! It is an important consideration though to the argument. In any case I think Newton was more concerned about the centre of rotation, in which case there will be 'no other side' in his argument.

Now that you appear to support the fact that there is true motion I think I agree more with that aspect of DFM. What CMB radiation is to motion in terms of a frame of reference is not different from what your 'quantum vacuum', 'pair production' or 'ambient medium' frame is doing.

So on both counts, the two flaws or errors attributed to Newton cannot be accepted.

As to your recent post, "Light only converts to YOUR max speed 'c' if it meets you and presents itself for 'measurement' (interaction and computation), but only if you or the lens are made of matter", I still say this is Galilean relativity. Not only light. Sound as well will do same. Even drops of water as Galileo pointed out will start to share in the motion of the ship when below deck. Your DFM only provides some more detail in the mechanism of speed conversion, but does not negate Galilean relativity. However, in trying to make DFM go further than its scope errors such as 'light changing behaviour when you measure it' will come up. Whether you measure it or not, when light encounters a lens, its behaviour changes. No observer is needed.

Regards,

Akinbo