Why Quantum?

"You will indeed make a great physics ghost. " -- Steve Agnew.

Lol. Maybe I'll use quantum entanglements to move things around in the kitchen. Actually, if given the chance in the afterlife, what I really want to do is move objects around on some atheist professors desk.

Dear Peter,

Stern-Gerlach dealt with atoms. For all those who interpreted their experiment it was quite natural that particles (fermions) don't have a preferred orientation in space. It is seemingly more natural that photons (bosons) have a natural axis of spin, their direction of motion. As usual, the most naturally seeming assumptions were not questioned. Isn't same true for the principle of relativity?

In other words, it might not be the particles that are spinning but positive or negative spin can be attributed to the direction of quanta of energy transfer. I would like to replace the question "why quantum?" by "why quantum nonsense?", why did a seemingly natural assumption imply nonsensical and mystical theories up to Jason's ghosts?

Regards,

Eckard

"I would like to replace the question "why quantum?" by "why quantum nonsense?", why did a seemingly natural assumption imply nonsensical and mystical theories up to Jason's ghosts?" -Eckard Blumschein

Because of all of the encounters with ghosts by very believable people. Because we have to ask if ghosts are somehow compatible with quantum mechanics because people keep seeing them. Because "consciousness" is not reducible to standard model particles, not even in principle.

By the way, to say that quantum mechanics is deterministic is deceptive. While the mathematics might be deterministic, the actual measurements are random. Honestly, that should tell you folks that something fishy is going on with quantum mechanics.

In fact, I would even go so far as to say that consciousness has free will because QM is random.

Steve,

There are a lot of potentially exotic bodies out there. I just think not enough credence is given to the fact that galaxies radiate light and other forms of energy out over areas many billions of lightyears across. This would have to be accounted for, from the mass falling into them. Then that mass is coalescing back out of that energy, in an overall cycle. My suspicion is that we will eventually explain redshift as an effect of the intergalactic expansion of this radiation, balancing the mass density in overall flat space.

As such an optical effect, it would explain why we appear at the center, without having to say space itself expands, but still assuming a constant speed of light against which to measure it, which is contradictory. Also there would be no need for dark energy, since those galaxies are not actually moving away and the curvature of the rate of expansion could be explained as a compounding effect of this redshift. Obviously no need for inflation either.

Gravity would be an overall effect of all contraction processes, not just its own force, starting with light collapsing from waves to photons and the dark matter issue would wash out with a better understanding there.

Obviously this is light on all the specifics, but while I might not have my nose pressed against the glass as close as many, it does get rid of most of those theoretical elements which mostly serve to bridge the many gaps between theory and observation.

Regards,

John M

Peter. The NEW rev.B 2 page summary paper is still not accessible in this universe.

Eckard, can you still find the story you posted about tailor sewing ill fitting cloth for his customer?

Eckard,

"...the most naturally seeming assumptions were not questioned. Isn't same true for the principle of relativity?"

I agree, although "naturally seeming" for some may be different for others, and assuming entirely random orientation of axis but with a with motion vector and in a magnetic field is now known as simply wrong!

Bell assumed entirely random, I invoke axial propagation but random polar 'direction' (clockwise/ anticlockwise). Only Bells assumption runs into the inequality limits!! The common axis IS then 'entanglement', and relates the relative setting angles to give the cosine distribution geometrically from a vector relationship and surface OAM distribution with latitude on a spinning Bloch sphere.

How's your geometry? Do you understand the derivation and massive implication?

The exact same mechanism is what renders SR consistent, the electrons scatter to the LOCAL 'c' OF THE ELECTRON REST FRAME. 'c' is universal LOCALLY, wherever light propagates and is measured' not 'universally'. That mechanism allows full unification with QM, using absolute time, but plus 'relative' speeds +/- v where propagating 'elsewhere'. Make sense now?

Peter

I see there's still an issue with the link. Try just pasting into Google search;

independent.academia.edu/JacksonPeter and; clicking; Classical reproduction of quantum correlations B.

Jason,

Did someone suggest QM is deterministic!!?? I think you may have that wrong! Where did you see it?

Peter,

The summary was quite helpful when I was able to link it at last. Before discussing I must confess that I am not very interested in how QM is currently described. Using mathematical tools to create all kinds of ghostly effects like a particle being in two places at once. I am however with your efforts to explain the ghostly activities in a more classical fashion. All the best in your efforts. I have no criticism to make as such, only to ask for some education. I will seize on the paragraph:

"Bohm's Gedanken experiment described a pair of particles, one spin 'up', one 'down'. On reaching distant separated Stern-Gerlach magnets if 'A' deflects up, 'B' goes down, ... If magnet A is rotated; the particle deflects down. The particle at B then MUST go up. Therein is the problem. If magnet A is reversed at the the last moment, how can B know without "spooky action at a distance"?

- Is what is spin 'up' in Australia (down under, e.g. south pole), also spin 'up' in North America (e.g. North pole)? It appears some convention or agreement on what is up and what is down is needed ab-initio before sending the particles out to distant places.

- A Stern-Gerlach magnet sitting on a laboratory desk at the North Pole is already rotated relative to the same equipment on a desk at the South Pole. So the question of reversal at the last moment is still secondary to defining unambiguously what is meant by 'up' and what is 'down'.

- I believe that if 'up' and 'down' are unambiguously defined, reversal of magnet A at the last moment will make the spin of both particles A and B to be the same! That is both 'up' or both 'down'.

Using mathematics and statistical experimental results to prove this so-called entanglement will have to be more rigorous to convince me, even if the establishment have agreed to live with the mystical Copenhagen interpretation. I will like to know more about this so educate me if I am wrong, but with less technical terms and abbreviations.

Regards,

Akinbo

*I am posting here because the other thread getting long.

*I also smell Newton's Absolute space in defining unequivocally what universally accepted to be Up or Down.

Akinbo,

Just paste this into Google etc. and click on the Popular Summary B paper;

" Academia Classical reproduction of quantum correlations "

I suspect whoever's tending the quantum world has spotted it and barred the link from fqXi as it's too near the mark (lol). It works fine from anywhere else!

John,

I do understand. I've always had close affinity with dog's. But from where I'm looking your own descriptions are complex beyond comprehension and doesn't seem to fit or emerge from so many findings the simplest most intuitive answer all comes from condensed electron modulation to the electrons own c and spin direction.

Gravity is simply the paucity of 'dark energy' surrounding it as a 'density depression' all the time it exists as a particle. The moment it's annihilated ('evaporated') the gravity also disappears. That seems to fit all and is also how moisture droplets in the air work (the local air is 'dryer' once the droplet condenses). What's complicated?

Akinbo,

Spin 'up' and 'down' are both well defined and poorly explained. Consider the photon case where they may be simple polarity. All rotating entities have BOTH; i.e. Australia spins clockwise (cw) and Norway counter clockwise (ccw).

However EPR considered a constant background or deep space. Fact is, when a particle was split and sent off opposite ways, if one was found cw, the other would be found ccw (the opposite photomultiplyer clicked).

That was no problem. But THEN they found that if one detector field was reversed, the FINDING reversed!! (so naturally the other finding a light year away must also instantly reverse!) What's more; the 'probability' of the reversal depended on the RELATIVE settings of A and B, even though out of communications range!! Now that DID defy all possible logic. Bell's proof was absolutely irrefutable.

They checked for all possible wrong assumptions and found none, so 'gave up'. What I now show is that there WAS a hidden false assumption, so the finding DIDN'T defy "all possible logic". Bell's a case was simply invalid. (NO quantum Physicist will accept that invalidity as they're all stuck inside that box. - you should see some of the names I've been called!) Statesticians won't accept it either as it shows their methods too imprecise.

Copenhagen is only equivalent to the detector electrons (think eye lens coating) modulating the EM signal on absorption and re-emission (atomic scattering). (The observer is PART OF the system and influences the finding). It was only the 'interpretation' that was mystical, just like the 'interpretation' of SR's postulates.

That one little gem then solves the paradoxes of both QM AND SR, unifying physics; Light is always found at c (a lens/antenna makes it so, and allows an 'absolute' as well as 'apparent' rates of time) and the classical mechanism produces the QM prediction (down to the next fractal quantum scale of uncertainty).

Thanks for the response. I hope you're getting your head round it a bit more now. Did the above make sense? Anything missing?

Best wishes

Peter

Yes Peter,

I too see serious implications with our reinterpretation of Stern-Gerlach. Hopefully we will get soon rid of distracting ghosts and up-down issues. Let me just further exemplify what I meant with seemingly natural:

Dedekind's cut - without any chance of a proof.

Einstein's principle of relativity. Read my last essay.

The female genetic fingerprint of NSU.

Cold fusion

Quantum computing

SUSY

Time-invariance of the laws of physics.

Use of complex quantities as if they were real.

Treating ict as a dimension like length

Interpretation of bicep as evidence for BB

In all such cases there was or at least can be a seemingly natural but possibly "hidden false assumption".

I agree: "axial motion but random" either clockwise or anticlockwise direction of spinning. I imagine the axis belonging to the direction of motion. This implies: Without motion there is no possibility to measure a spin.

I just don't understand why you don't accept that there might be an ideal empty space (just instantaneous distances) without any natural point of reference in which c can globally be equal to c.

Eckard

Eckard,

I would agree there is a natural empty space, but that would make it infinite and absolute, ie. lacking any frame. While physics doesn't like what can't be measured, the alternative, an expanding universe/inflationary cosmology, is looking ever more absurd.

Regards,

John M

Hi Peter,

"Jason,Did someone suggest QM is deterministic!!?? I think you may have that wrong! Where did you see it? " -Peter

Lawrence Krauss said this in a podcast interview with Rational Skepticism. But it's true. For any potential energy V(r,t), the wave-function is deterministic. From the wave-function you can calculate all of the eigenstates. What is not deterministic, what is random or is beyond the control of the experimenter is which eigenstate is measured. here is an analogy. Think of a potential energy V(r,t) as a multi-layer parking garage. The cars and pedestrians are free to be anywhere in the garage, but not inside of the concrete walls, not inside of the concrete floors. Beyond that, the cars are free to park anywhere they want.

Therefore you're hero Lawrence Krauss has fooled you all. There is plenty of freewill in spite of the limitations of walls. There is free will all over the place.

John M. & Eckard,

Yes indeed, there is such a non-thing as ideally empty space which defies even abstraction of the infinite. But then we are only human, and it would not be a very successful species that had a survival instinct that was not hard-wired to ignore, absolutely, any notion of not being. We can only abstract such an idea, and wonder and perhaps believe that there is some higher order of consciousness that alludes our temporal mortal sense of self.

Back to topic relevant to the article; Entropy is one of those pieces of petrified 'would' enshrined by Applied Physics which Theoretical Physics is not supposed to touch or examine without setting off alarm bells and the Security Staff taking you into a room. But if it were not also recursive in proper time how can mass-energy be physically equivalent, how could energy be matter and anything be a discrete quantity for quantum probability to have an empirical basis? Where I come from you can't go fishing without a can of worms. jrc

John M,

If Peter J and I am correct then this will hopefully make QM less absurd. Is the idea of infinite space as a mere plurality of relative distances absurd? No, I see it rather a most reasonable hypothesis.

While something infinite evades measurement, this does not hinder us to logically operate with incommensurables and the limit of an infinite sum. I am only aware of a very few indispensable basic assumptions. Without causality, our reasoning and our actions didn't make sense. Whether you believe or not in eternal life, God, ghosts, or BB does not matter. Dealing with such, just shared with others beliefs is fruitless.

Space and elapsed as well as anticipated time are useful notions at least so far. QM based theories are said to be utterly successful. This is for me no reason to unconditionally believe in their correct basics. I prefer questioning of the foundations of anything that looks absurd. Can you please deal in detail with what Peter and I are claiming?

Eckard

Eckard

Eckard,

I used to believe in the absolute nature of causality. No, time travel is still impossible and is delusion. However, if an event is occurring periodically in time, then it could look like the effect happened before the cause. Because of the mysterious nature of QM, it would be hard to justify an absolute rule of causality. Nevertheless, causality is a very very useful rule. Like I said, time travel is still fundamentally impossible.

"Whether you believe or not in eternal life, God, ghosts, or BB does not matter. Dealing with such, just shared with others beliefs is fruitless. " -Eckard

You have to dismiss 18% of Americans who have witnessed ghosts in order to ignore the possibility. You have to believe in a mistake made by Michelson-Morley in order to ignore the existence of an aether. You have to ignore the existence of the quantum vacuum, the Casimir effect and the Higgs field in order to convince yourself there is not an aether.

You have to believe the *cough* truth of Lawrence Krauss who says there is no free will. I dare anyone to debate this with me. There *is* free will. I double-dog dare anyone to debate this with me.

You have to believe that consciousness is an epiphenomena of panpsychism. You have to lie to your own conscience to avoid what the evidence is telling you.

Jason,

Respectfully, people have politely accepted your introducing yourself to this forum as being a religious minded individual, and have gone off topic and out of their (our) ways to acknowledge your right to personal beliefs, and you have made statements which indicate a level of understanding if not formal education on topics of theoretical issues of physical phenomenon. Please do not divert discussion to metaphysical issues, lest respondents to the forum begin reporting your posts as inappropriate. There are theological websites people can go to for that sort of discussion. We all welcome discussion in which we limit ourselves, regardless of all other persuasions, to matters of concepts and methodologies towards formulating measurable physical processes, and try to be personable without too much digression. We'd like to hear what you have to say about Physics. Welcome.

John R. Cox (jrc)

Eckard,

What Peter is saying certainly seems reasonable to me. The problem is that I don't have enough knowledge to vet it completely and I know knowledge is a reductionistic process and we have to be careful what gets edited out, as the situation with Bell typifies, so I try to avoid stepping in areas where I'm not entirely confident. If that excludes me from the conversation, so be it.

Personally it seems to me the idea of non-locality and entanglement are issues of how much information can be carried and what are the mechanisms of reception, all very complex issues and then distilled through the fog of human communication. I will stand back and watch.

John C,

The energy radiates out for 10 billion lightyears, while mass accumulates across only 10 millions of lightyears. So the energy is conserved, just not in the same box as mass and entropy is about the closed/structured frame. Fortunately light coming from everything within a radius of 10 billions of lightyears makes up for that loss. That lost to infinity, is correspondingly made up by an infinity that is not otherwise empty.

Regards,

John M

John (Cox),

Then I have one more thing to say about (quantum) physics. Quantum wave-functions are indeed determinent. There is always a right answer for a given V(r,t). But the conclusion that the universe is determined, that there is no free will, is wrong. I don't know why scientists arrive at this false conclusion. From wave-functions you can calculate eigenstates. The eigenstates are detected at random!

That fact alone destroys all arguments that there is no free will. Why would anyone still believe that we have no free will?