Why Quantum?

Akinbo Ojo

Peter,

I just googled and saw links to Caroline Thompson's works who is now late (died of cancer 2006). I think they will make an interesting read.

http://freespace.virgin.net/ch.thompson1/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Caroline_Thompson

Akinbo

Jason Wolfe

I tell you practitioners of physics that the Two Slit Diffraction experiment for electrons tells us that electrons cannot be hard spheres, and there is silence. I can hear the crickets chirping. What gives?

John Cox

Akinbo,

Interesting that you would ask..."Why should the same room be such a problem for a quantum investigation. (and) Why should A and B be light years apart?"

Firstly I am in agreement on the divisibility of the Quantum, but completely aside from that your questions are pertinent to the topical theme of entropy as a variable of constant influence (a parameter) in physical processes treated as probabilities in both classical and quantum mechanics. Loschmidt argued that an army of Maxwell's Demons would eventually overcome the thermodynamic barrier against reversal of entropy without time reversal. But the 'marching column' turns out to be extraordinarily long. This is just a suggestion in your own ongoing inquiries, thanks again for the BIPM link. jrc

John Cox

Jason,

Briefly, the 'wavicle' is enjoying something of a comeback, which is similar to the early atomic picture from Rutherford onward of a tiny, massive nuclear core in a much larger 'cloud' of electrons, or in 'wavicle' speak, energy. So there's one cricket. Another would be the Pilot Wave theory which of I think you are aware. Wave function mechanics ( the mathematic machinery) can be the same for a material wave as for the same shape of 'potential' in a purely mathematical abstract represented by a graphical curve. But the math is not any form of energy to be capable of becoming manifest in any material form. I've got both chores and the weather at the same time, so I'd best get cutting the mustard. jrc

Eckard Blumschein

Peter,

I suspected that you meant JJ Thomson, the father of GP.

However, you wrote Thompson.

Following Akinbo's suggestion my biopsy did not yet find possible Gleason values of logical cancer in quantum mathematics of the 1914 experiment by Franck and G. Hertz that already discovered what is still most valuable: quantum energy levels.

The experiment by Stern and Gerlach 1921/22 related already to questionable theories by Larmor and by Sommerfeld, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physics-experiment/app5.html

Since I am mainly interested in the question whether or not a complex description is absolutely necessary, the experiments by Davisson and Germer in 1923/27 and by Uhlenbeck and Goudsmit in 1925 were perhaps not decisive in this respect.

Can you further clarify?

Eckard

Akinbo Ojo

Eckard, I want to know if you support autopsy (also called post-mortem) examination on Schrodinger's cat to ascertain the time of death. You and Peter refuse to give a direct answer, Yes or No. You only said, "The cat might be a symptom", what does that mean?

By the way, I wish to doff my hat to the late brave lady, Caroline Thompson. I believe posterity will remember her kindly even if the establishment and journal referees didn't hear her out. I just read one of her papers, which I attach here because it throws much light on the subject, 'Why Quantum?', and contains links for further reading.

Regards, AkinboAttachment #1: Caroline_Thompson_RIP.pdf

Steve Agnew

It is particularly confusing when explanations of quantum action give macroscopic objects like people and cats the coherent attributes of microscopic matter. Coherent matter behaves so differently from incoherent matter that comparisons of hypothetical coherent macroscopic matter can be very confusing. The dephasing times for any macroscopic object like a cat are very short unless the objects are neutron stars or black holes.

Schrödinger's cat is truly a superposition of two states for some very short time following any quantum trigger and resultant action, which by the way is any action in the quantum universe. If Schrödinger's cat somehow remained coherent with the action, it could then presumably exist in the superposition that you describe until you opened the box.

However, the cat exchanges light and matter with the box and the cat's coherence times are very short as a result. Once the cat dephased from the quantum trigger, the state of the cat would no be longer a superposition and would exist as one state or another as knowable information. Opening the box then simply reveals information that was knowable and the wavefunction of the cat has long since collapsed from the subsequent dephasing actions after the quantum event.

No need to kill another cat...

Until science unites charge and gravity into a common quantum action for all objects, there will continue to be confusion and strong differences of opinion about the nature of quantum action and how it is different from gravity action. For example, given similar charge and gravity forces for a coherent object, quantum action allows interference effects due to superposition but gravity only allows ballistic collisions. We have an intuition and life experience with macroscopic matter and gravity action that is very difficult to reconcile with the reality of microscopic matter and quantum action.

Steve Agnew

I like the beamsplitter as a coherent device where 50% of the light goes one way and 50% goes the other way. Now, a single photon ends up detected along reflected path A or transmitted path B, but there are two interpretations.

The quantum interpretation is that the photon is on both paths equally and each single photon wave shows up at both A and B, but 50% of the time that photon disappears by destructive interference at both A and B correlated or coherent with appearance by constructive interference at both A or B. The action of the beamsplitter creates coherency between the two paths B or A, respectively.

Some kind of magic occurs at the beamsplitter that made 50% of photons disappear by destructive interference at both A and B, but what is really upsetting is seeing a photon along A does not then mean that it was only on path A.

The ballistic Cartesian interpretation is that 50% of photons are reflected to A and 50% are transmitted to B and although this answer is technically wrong, it is good enough for many applications. If all you need is a one-way mirror or a grayed window or sunglasses to block sunlight, you really do not need to know much about single photon coherence. Thus our ballistic Cartesian reality does work fairly well for most predictions of action, even for those quantum actions with quantum devices like sunglasses or beamsplitters or polarizers.

John Cox

Steve,

"...truly a superposition of two states for some very short time..."

Thank-you very much for the two posts, that explanation was comprehensible for me. It is difficult for the naïve such as I to get a grasp on the conventions of accepted definition of terms devised in QM, and you defined coherence and decoherence in a way that demystifies the idea. It also presents spin in a realistic way, which classically I have long thought existential. I can't imagine energy not going every direction of least resistance, continually at once. The neutral charge (for want of a better word) of the neutron has been accessible to me as energy physically moving in all directions at a spherical boundary because that quantity of energy must prescribe a distribution of energy through density variation which results in an optimal energy:volume configuration that does not require the whole mass to rotate to resolve a disparity with the optimum of configuration through angular momentum. So far my math just hasn't discovered a 'why' for spikes along a gradient. I might have made a grade but I don't think its a passing mark. Thanks again, jrc

[deleted]

but can us grasp the character of nature ? i mean, we articulate concepts just that, apart we dont know the extension of "ALL" reality.

Akinbo Ojo

Yet another new alibi called dephasing time is being introduced. Nevertheless, Steve said , "... wavefunction of the cat has long since collapsed from the subsequent dephasing actions after the quantum event ", so need for an autopsy to ascertain actual time of death. Okay by me.

Then talking about beamsplitters and the quantum interpretation which results in magical and illogical behavior, what is wrong with the classical interpretation that is coherent and logical that has necessitated the need for a quantum interpretation to this problem which in turn has led to the invention of new mathematics to resolve the absurdities?

pjackson

Eckard,

Simple things are complex to all who don't yet understand them. I find no complex description necessary.

Polarity of opposing signals shares one axis but is random in terms of clockwise and anticlockwise. The DFM identifies that an assumption that axes were also random in orientation was the error.

Uhlenbeck and Goudsmits 1925 finding of electron spin flip was critical and should have been applied to the case. Nobody did. Doing so is the 'holy grail' (pt.1) as it revises both QM and SR's interpretations to allow unification;

QM's because reversed DETECTOR electrons reverse the spin 'finding' (Bell agreed).

SR's because the re-emission is at c in each electrons frame. Simply apply all over.

And there is the simple foundational 'discrete field' dynamics model (DFM) which seems to house zero paradoxes and anomalies. Unfortunately pt.2 of the holy grain entails human minds steeped in different assumptions and interpretations studying and understanding the dynamics. That part seems rather more difficult any may still take some years. To me the assimilation rate has been surprisingly low. But there's plenty of time for falsification and to find the best description. Do give your view.

The latest optics work is exposing more consistencies, including the hierarchical and 'hyperfine' spin modes, Raman scattering, Schrödinger wavelets and the critical difference between the near far field terms (Maxwell's TZ), all referred to in the latest review of matter wave diffraction here;

http://online.qmags.com/PST0514?pg=33&mode=2#pg33&mode2

Best wishes

Peter

John Cox

Akinbo & Pete,

What might be an impossibly brief span of time to human experience could be a walking pace to an electron dephasing to a different energy level. Steve's description of superposition of two states makes classical sense when you think (as both you agree) that there is no preferred reference point in space, and there is some of that in an atomic volume. Given that scenario QM might be realism if we dispose of the instantaneous assumption in the Bohr 'quantum leap'. In location A @ energy level a, the electron knows which orientation its own axis of rotation has assumed in relation to the angular momentum of the atomic mass. But during the leap moment, it can't decide what orientation its spin direction relates to other than another axial of itself. The motion of the energy condensing as its mass becomes decoherent during that phase instead of being dragged into alignment analogous to laminar flow by a differentiated axial of rotation. Once in location B @ energy level b, its rotational orientation is again reasserted by relation to the angular momentum of the atomic mass. jrc

pjackson

Akinbo,

You advise I shouldn't trust eminent physicists. "As trustworthy as any" meant just that. Near-zero!

"why inventing all kinds of new ad hoc effects, like 'wave lock', etc." You need to catch up on much optical science on harmonic resonance effects Akinbo; Tomography, optical 'screwdrivers', 'tractor beams' etc. I'm a bit offended you'd conceive I'd 'invent' such things! I identify what has fooled so many in the past, confusion with local effects when considering 'non-locality', and you ignore me to walk straight into the same trap! Again; not doing your homework wastes my time!

Please also read my re-interpretation of Copenhagen carefully; If the electrons at the surface of a lens can have any modulation effect on the signal sent along the optic nerve/cable then there IS a valid effect to consider! Electron coupling and 'spin flip' means there can and is.

Then you say; "You and Peter refuse to give a direct answer," Excuse me! I've 'refused' nothing! Go for the autopsy. I predicted long ago what you'll find; The cat dies if and when the phial opens! Period.

But good to see you're doing your homework on Caroline Thompson. Massive shame she died. Now you're starting to understand the claims of QM and actual findings you'll be able to see the simple veracity of my solution. SOO simple, and so closely and entirely covering the surface of all our eyeballs that nobody could see it!

See my post to Eckard above. I'll also re-post the link here, which confirms a number of the DFM hypotheses are entirely valid, including the near/far field transform (lens surface TZ), re-emitted 'spherelets' etc.

Physics Today, Matter Wave Refraction and Interferometry.

Steve/John,

The simple solution to the 'delayed choice' nonsense is also there, as Wheeler suspected; the signal takes both 'paths' and is recombined. It can be tuned for the positive interference at either detector.

Best wishes

Peter

pjackson

JR,

Sorry but I can make little sense of that. There's a far FAR simpler solution (DFM). I'd thought you'd grasped it.

If the 'photons' share the same (opposite) propagation/spin axis, then the angles of the detector settings can be related for each pairing. (that is effective 'entanglement'). Bell's inequality' doesn't apply as the axis isn't random. Only the 'clockwise/anticlockwise' polarity is random.

Non time-resolved pair analysis can't distinguish the individual pairings so is 'blind', and statistical analysis simply uses the wrong assumption. A result up/up IS perfectly possible as the findings are independent. Caroline Thompson confirmed my prediction of the error in the Aspect experiment.

If you didn't grasp it please do read it again and let me know if any parts aren't comprehendable;

Classical reproduction of quantum correlations.

Best wishes

Peter

John Cox

Pete,

What no one understands is what your self promotion has to do with any topic of every blog you advertise in. jrc

Eckard Blumschein

Peter J,

Already Caroline Thompson wrote: "the „hidden variable" lambda is simply the polarization detection". Unfortunately, your mixed this reasonable at least to me argument with your advertising for DFM and a deterring arrogant and imprecise style of representation. I hope, many of those who rated your essays high ignored the latter because they understood the decisive argument and intended supporting it.

Akinbo,

Your suggestion of an autopsy inspired me to suggest a biopsy because I see EPR's argument a superficial one. I am still looking for details in the logic of possible mistakes. The excellent and fertile 1914 experiment by Franck and G. Hertz gave rise to switch from time domain to the Hamiltonian i.e. frequency domain, and this led to improper use of Heaviside's trick by Kramers, Born, Heisenberg, and by Schroedinger, Weyl.

Apropos Hermitian matrices, they combine two half matrices. The upper one contains the same information as the lower one: the past and the mirrored past replacing the undecided future. The diagonal "state" is the simultaneously exploded and not exploded, dead and alive cat.

Eckard

pjackson

John, Eckard,

It's very disappointing that efforts to expose hidden truths discovered underlying the confusion in present physics, solely for the good of mankind, and by earnestly trying to explaining the science, can be ignored and wrongly viewed as 'self promotion' or 'advertising'.

The reasons for explaining the dynamics in relevant cases are; 1) To recruit help in rigorous falsification, finding flaws and improvement, and 2) To try to find a way of better explaining the 'new' rational physics, particularly to those steeped in doctrine or focussed on other ideas.

I'm also of course producing papers, the odd one of which even actually gets published! (-if I keep descriptions close enough to old physics). I've asked this before, but if you have any ideas or suggestions how I could better achieve the above goals please help me by advising.

In terms of my personal aims NOTHING could be further from the truth that the concepts "self promotion" or "arrogance", indeed finding the coherent ontology has imposed an unwanted burden, so is more a heavy and humbling cross to bear. If anyone want's to take it on and carry it forward do please let me know. I'd rather be sailing!

But what I'm most disappointed about is your ability to completely ignore my great time and effort spent on trying to present the science, resorting to misguided personal attacks instead. That's exasperating. Science is all one. The dynamics I present are unifying, so widely valid. John - please identify any area I've discussed where you think it's NOT valid! I'm very happy to elucidate why I suggest it is and we can try to falsify the case together. Your vague accusation is not only unfair but I can show you is also wrong.

Eckard; I've lauded Caroline's excellent work for two year and been ignored. But she never found the actual solution (if you think your comment 'explains' non-locality you'd better explain how!! - as it doesn't!)

But ultimately I'm to blame for perhaps letting a little exasperation creep in, and for expecting to discuss science. That too is a disappointment, but if anyone IS interested in the science and exposing truth it appears I need all the help I can get.

Or. I ask again; should I just give up and abrogate any responsibility? I won't pretend it's not a tempting thought!

So is anybody here actually genuinely interested in improving fundamental physics? or more properly; our understanding of nature?

Best wishes

Peter

Akinbo Ojo

Peter J,

From many indications you support many of the fundamental assumptions of QM, which is why you are trying too hard to explain this inexplicable. Apologies for using the word 'invented' in my conversation but it is for lack of another term to describe the various seemingly forced and ad hoc mechanisms and explanations of observation, most, if not all of which are absent and are not required for the wave picture of light.

Some of my queries are to stimulate further refinement of your DFM argument. For example, what is an electron's frame, when you say, "...re-emission is at c in each electrons frame". How does the electron know its frame so as to adjust the value of c accordingly? How can there be more entanglement when things are further apart rather than when they are nearer to each other as Copenhagen interpretation believes, but which Caroline Thompson rightly disputes (in my opinion). Sorry, if my questions betray ignorance.

Finally, you are valued around here. Recall, it was my reading your 2-page summary that made me dabble in this Quantum entanglements and arguments because I focused on the ?second paragraph in that summary. From that I discerned an absurdity in my opinion and from this I find myself planning to read Caroline Thompson's papers as she seems to be a like-mind.

JRC, Steve, Eckard, Tom,

I have lost count of the mechanisms used to explain the inexplicable, from electron dephasing, superposition of two states, motion of the energy condensing as its mass becomes decoherent, electron spin flip, hierarchical and 'hyperfine' spin modes, Raman scattering, Schrödinger wavelets and the critical difference between the near far field terms, probability distribution', 'hidden variables', stochastic randomness without 'non-locality', spin axis is on the propagation axis, wave lock' effects well known in tomography, entanglement, FTL communication, hierarchical 'truth function logic' (TFL), conjugate fermion pair production, Apropos Hermitian matrices, Tomography, optical 'screwdrivers', 'tractor beams', re-emitted 'spherelets', the (single) signal takes both 'paths' and is recombined, etc, etc

Why must we follow the hard route of photon indivisibility postulate of QM, when the wave route is available and we would not need all of these named effects? Why must we be forced to take analgesic (paracetamol, tylenol, aspirin) when we do not have headache? When a light wave hits a half-silvered mirror, half of it passes through and half is reflected since waves can be divided. No need for any of the above mechanisms. Similarly, light can be partially transmitted through a polarization filter as a wave, and the transmitted wave can be blocked by a second filter to identify its direction of polarization. Measuring the direction of one polarized wave can be used to know the direction of polarization of a second in the same room! No need of waiting for them to travel light years apart.

Even the photo-electric effect that we are told necessitated prescription of all these mechanisms is being studied and a member of this community, ?Eric Reiter has carried out an experiment and proposed a loading theory so that photon existence and indivisibility may be a myth.

Regards,

Akinbo

John Cox

Akinbo.

I made a confusing typo, it should have had a comma, "The motion of the energy condensing as its mass, (!) becomes decoherent..." but I was trying for brevity. There was nothing in what I stated that was inconsistent with classical and quantum thinking in Condensed Matter Physics of which Wave Structure of Matter is incorporated and in common application in experimental physics and technology. You might find www.spaceandmotion.com of some interest.

Pete,

Since you ask, your DFM is consistent and applicable but runs into the conundrum of momentum being associated with mass which cannot achieve light velocity. It suffers from an apparent lack of any physical property in the helical structure necessary to transmit the angular momentum of 'the photon'.

It becomes perplexing, an angular moment in time orbiting a line. Where is the photon? to have momentum? What's not spooky about that kind of action across a distance?

Later, jrc

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