Pete,

I see your distinction of proper and relative velocity, and it resolves from taking light velocity as the invariable rather than Newton's (et al) ubiquitous scalar increments as one or the other, time or space. Hence the relativities.

Your own dynamics of relative velocities methodology may well stem from your architectural training, live loads are just that. I climbed steel up to 50 feet above the millwrights on a one job, and in the States loads are in KIPS, that is; 1 pound of instantaneous applied force will propagate across structural members (seeking ground! center of earth!) at a rate of 1000 inches per second. So from a measuring method, comes our rationales.

The somewhat archaic 'free rest mass' simply means reducing to first principles in measures, the dynamics then can be examined from having a co-ordinate free, proper set of scalars as an invariable benchmark. But all dynamic models seem to fail to address a gap in understanding that Quants always point towards as segmenting the continuum. We treat inertia only in comparing one mass to another, and have not reasoned out what it is that makes inertia unique to all mass.

Typically: a body at rest tends to stay at rest..a body in motion tends to stay in motion So what is it about mass that is the same for either condition given that there is no way to determine motion or no motion except relative between two masses? And, keeping in mind that mass:energy equivalence is only that and says nothing about matter.

Addressing only that in terms of a free rest mass, meaning free of any influences save it's own self-gravitational parameters, and only one such free rest mass:energy quantity, it becomes nearly self-evident that inertia is the translation of response (at constant rate, c ) across a finite volume of energy. If we can say 'c' , the energy must seek to be existant at that ubiquitous velocity and have a continuum constant density. Physically, that would be a conceptually impossible state. Yet we also experience energy concentrations, as if we live in an energy supersaturate space which precipitates masses of energy concentrations to conserve space. There is not enough space for all the energy to exist in homogeneity at any given instant. There is therefore an equal tendency of energy to seek an existential deceleration from 'c' which is a cornerstone of John Merryman's thinking, ying and yang (sp?).

So we can hypothesize that inertia is relative to any size mass, but must be of the same proportional value for any relative size concentration, or different masses would fall in a gravitational field at different rates as each mass would have a different valued gravitational field of its own. That relative proportional constant value logically follows from the homogeneous continuum density paradox to a gradient of increasing density as deceleration piles up in front of itself, slowing the rate of decelerant energy in ever smaller spherical volume. It will seek nil velocity.

So we can conclude that for any mass to exhibit the characteristics of inertia, some portion of that energy quantity must exist at a constant density as the greatest density, in direct proportion to the quantity of energy itself. Given the established mass : energy equivalence of e = mc^2 , which can be taken as two dimensional, suggests that a 4D density gradient resolves from the existential deceleration of energy from 'c' to nil in four dimensions of measure consistent with the paradigm of two dimensional measure in equivalence. The proportional value sought as common to the characteristic of inertia would thereby obtain as the greatest and constant density concentration of energy, being X = ec^2 or its equivalence I = mc^4.

Quantum Mechanically, this classically defining energy density proportion is what determines whether a state of being exists or not. The 'Zero Point Particle' can exist in any relative location, however uncertain that location might be, within a spatial volume prescribed by that classical energy density parameter.

The trick will be to discover how that seed density volume relates through energy distribution to find true size of the full field volume and the inertial density volume, as well as the volume radial length of any specified density in a distinct, discrete field. Dynamic models are like schematics of experimental apparatus to detect how energy behaves. jrc

Tom, you seem to have found Utopia elsewhere. Do you have any comment on whether the quantum postulate of photon indivisibility passes Sir Eddington's test?

Peter,

On your analogy of the four life guards and the girl. It didn't occur to me at first that life guard 3 shouldn't get there first since he does most of his own journey on land and "swim the shortest distance". I guess you are right though.

Since you are allergic to the entropy concept I won't ask you if DFM passes Sir Eddington's test, especially concerning light behavior as depicted in my Penrose quote.

Steve was right there about Utility. But it is often stated even in the establishment that General relativity has had little or no utility so far, except for the GPS which can alternatively be interpreted as a Sagnac effect. On the other hand, much utility has been ascribed to Quantum mechanics most commonly mentioned being the Laser. It is unclear if a wave-picture can also not explain that without resorting to particle nature. In summary, dogmatism and lack of forthrightness in the establishment about light behavior (its velocity and particle/wave nature) appears to be at the root of the lack of progress in physics.

Best regards,

Akinbo

Much agreed, Akinbo,

"...In summary, dogmatism and lack of forthrightness in the establishment about light behavior (its velocity and particle/wave nature) appears to be at the root of the lack of progress in physics."

Yessir, that dog don't hunt! But you are lot closer to nature than most who have large investments in finding chinks in the ivory tower, and recognize as they might not, that physics is about what is physical. We really need a physical model of electro-magnetic radiation that can be unambiguously falsifiable, experimentally. What I take from Reiter saying 'There is no photon!' is not simplistically that a 'partly-like' matter state doesn't at least momentarily exist, but rather that the ambiguity of what is meant by 'photon' in a finite physical sense makes the photon irrelevant.

Aside: in the States white-tail deer are wide ranging, and where I live the first day of gun season is a 'Business Holiday' and demographics of rural and urban mix makes the hunting season a necessary cull of overpopulation. In the rut, male deer (bucks) develop horns from rapid bone growth on each side at the top of the skull, nourished by a placentia called 'felt'. I'm sure you get the physiologic of the sensation of bone growing, and growing and growing... which lasts til the doe they corral into a harem, come ready and the bucks rake the felt off their antlers. Consequently, out of season after a bucks antlers break off, or as yearlings, you can tell gender by bucks having an angled profile a little above eyebrow level while the does have a straight line profile from top of skull to nose tip. Good huntin', jrc

JC,

" Quants always point towards as segmenting the continuum. We treat inertia only in comparing one mass to another, and have not reasoned out what it is that makes inertia unique to all mass."

That goes right back to the birth of the discrete field dynamic, which found deeper foundations in deriving both, opening the door to the rest. Consider a hierarchical 'Russian Doll' set of 'gyroscopes'. Billions of tiny ones /sq mm, repeating as fractals is steps all the way up to the CMB.

The disc of the gyro you and I play with is made up only of tiny spinning gyroscopes, each with inertia. We call them 'matter', or each one a 'quanta'. The smallest we've found are the 'hyperfine' spins of the article I posted, the gluon, the quark, etc.

Let's stick a few in a car shaped block of foam. Now loads more in a car shaped block of lead. Now try to move them both! You find the opposite to what a child's intuition' of gravity may tell him; The lead one is more difficult to move! Gravity will struggle more to accelerate the lead one! - making up for the instantaneously greater downward force already heading for the ground. The inertia is the OAM itself, the resistance of a gyro to acceleration.

We must distinguish between the gauges all the way up! It needs a whole new organised way of thinking about nature, but then the whole jigsaw puzzle all suddenly fits! Inertial systems themselves are real, spatially finite and part of a hierarchy. You may indeed call the number of tiny gyro's 'energy density' but that can also disguise the real big picture. And of course all spin becomes helical with translation. A simple dipole is a double helix.

Must go, but ask about any 'mysteries' and I'll see what comes out of the 'sausage machine'.

Peter

Akinbo.

Is the helix a wave or a particle? It solves the problems of both. A spinning particle also creates ('emits') the density fluctuations that propagate at c. (so two approaching are doing 'apparent' 2c, as intuition tells us).

But nothing is at just one scale. It seems the helices are fractal too, as evidence tells us. See my post to JC.

Best wishes

Peter

Interpretation of Compton scattering might be a key for those like me who are looking for what led to strangeness of QM within the decade 1920-1930. Of course, incoming "photons" are "split" into "photons" of less energy i.e. larger wavelength, propagating with a component towards one side and motion of the hit electrons towards the other one.

Physicists heuristically considered this the evidence for h/lambda being particles.

Eckard

Eckard,

"Dealing with zero..."

That does seem like it shouldn't be a problem, but ends up with a result that can be '2' instead of '1' scalar increment. I sometimes think it might be applicable as a utilitarian device, to simply carry across on the number line from ...-2,-1,1,2... and assume 'zero' occurs at either end of an equivalence function setting the scale of increment between -1 and 1.

I also agree that assuming one particle, or quasi-particle, to carry only one force effect, is wholly artificial and the source of quantum confusion. jrc

Photons are of course divisible and we do it all of the time with sum and difference laser spectroscopy. In fact, the beamsplitter involves surface plasmon excitation and some of the photon energy is lost as an inelastic scattering that splits the photon into two. If we used certain kinds of birefringent crystals or photoactive gain media, we could split it many different ways.

Splitting the photon is not the issue at all. Having a single photon with two possible coherent futures is the issue.

Eckard,

I agree scattering is poorly interpreted. Some fundamental assumptions are inconsistent, as I discussed 3 years ago. Compton elastic scattering was interpreted to prove 'photon' particles, yet the wavelength change increases not reduces with lateral angle. One also wonders how we can have all round lateral emissions while supposedly not 'dividing' the 'photon'!

Three years after Compton's Nobel Raman got his, for inelastic scattering. Yet even now it's considered as both a resonant and NOT a resonant effect! But at least in (more sophisticated than Wiki) optical science it's now recognised as having a 'wave' based (as well as particle) interpretation. i.e;

Raman Scattering.

Though scattered light power has a linear relationship with incident intensity it has an inverse relation with wavelength to the 4th power.

Also while standard Rayleigh scattering re-emits at incident f, Raman scattering has a non-linear change ('energy exchange') with the phase shift; Θ = 2Ï€x(1/λ âˆ' 1/λ'). That is highly relevant to my cosine derivation via the non-linear Stokes and Anti-Stokes up and down shifting. The Stokes parameter distribution is the same as I derive for the QM cosine distribution, again produced both classically and experimentally.

Though having little support I'm more certain than ever that we need to backtrack far further than most are willing to and change fundamental initial assumptions to then be able to rebuild our view of nature coherently. I appreciate that you at least seem perhaps to have seen that.

Best wishes

Peter

Steve,

"a single photon with two possible coherent futures is the issue."

Can you explain that in more detail, or rather why it may be assumed this scenario would fail, simplified;

Consider a hierarchical spin-orbit model with the photon as a spinning dipole fluctuation with a hyperfine spin +1 and -1 'peak' and 'trough', so describing a twin helical path. At the splitter mirror the +1 -1 positions are random, so head off ('re-emitted') either way. Note the negative charge exists, with a wavelength and phase. It is not 0 or 'nothing', (those qualities are conserved across the surface TZ). We may effectively then consider at two 'photons' of significantly different energies.

Now the 're-manifestation' on interaction with a surface (where not recombined) can only be from the positive charge (so 50:50)

However when recombined by the 2nd mirror the phase can be tuned to give full positive or negative amplitude 'interference' at one or other detector.

Best wishes

Peter

    All,

    Well, Albert did confuse what 'photon' is supposed to mean with his photo-electric model, which puts one second worth of hv in one spot in a non-determined (brief!) span of time. Alternatively, the same effect could be explained as the rapidity of numbers of quasi-ballistic quantum (h) 'hits' that would occur with higher frequencies, in a determinable span of time and (intensity) numbers of discrete wavetrains. Which is consistent with classical wave magneto-electric inductance where a higher voltage in your ignition system is developed by a faster rate of change in the magnetic field strength. And here as usual we see the dependence on the choice of the observer determining the conclusion from experimental data.

    The Bohr model and Schrodinger are typically pictured as 2D concentric circles, but realistically in R4 the 3D 'wave' between spherical shells would have to be an undulation producing mounds and hollows and the probability function collapse would compare to the topological construct of 'combing the hairs on a coconut' where no matter how you style the contour there will always result at least one 'cowlick'. But if we can only say light quanta can only be quasi-particulate, then the same for electrons and they can be seen as energy concentrations within a unified field of an atomic mass:energy volume. What is probability in QM, is Classically the propensity of energy concentrating to a certain density, to prescribe an optimal volume:energy configuration. jrc

    Thanks Eckard for mentioning Compton scattering. I was wondering what to say when I cam across Thomson scattering. And just as I was about to put in a comment I saw Peter's reference to Raman scattering. So I guess the jury is still out on the importance to the wave-particle debate so let me reserve my comments for now. I however wish for a wave explanation of the Compton effect.

    Akinbo

    Peter,

    Is the helix a wave or a particle?...

    I will give a diplomatic response. In my opinion, a helix is a spiral shape. It is neither a wave nor a particle. It is a shape. Having said that matter particles can be arranged in a static spiral shape, e.g. a spring or coil, (which are not waves) or in a non-static spiral shape like a tornado or vortex (which are disturbances and may depending how you look at it (be stationary or propagating waves). A spinning particle cannot be a wave unto itself (i.e. it cannot be the source of an action and a reaction at the same time, at least according to Newton). But it can create disturbance in the medium in which it is located by its spinning and that disturbance can propagate. The medium can be the source of reaction while the particle can be the action.

    As a result of the alternating changes that occur during wave propagation, with return forces on opposite sides of equilibrium, the helical pattern is also used to diagrammatically represent vibrations and wave behavior. Emphasis on diagrammatically. Therefore water, sound and light waves can be represented with a helix diagram but it does not necessarily imply that water molecules or air molecules are spinning or move spirally when water waves or sound travels. My humble opinion (can be changed).

    Akinbo

    Akinbo,

    I can demonstrate the logical failure of considering a 'wave' as being anything other than a helix in a 3D+t universe.

    Consider the 'lateral waves' which provide the additional dynamic required over and above simple linear density fluctuations. But consider them slowed down and 'visible'.

    Look from some angle, say looking down from the 'top' as they propagate from YOUR left to right. They will then 'wave' up and down wrt you (so left and right wrt a horizontal view angle). Now go back and look from the side. Either side. You won't be able to 'see them! which may violate the odd law. But worse, the 'up and down' is entirely a ARBITRARY! Who is to say you should observe from one 'angle' or another! wrt what? Detection is entirely inconsistent.

    However a helix appears consistently as a wave from ALL observer positions. What is more, when we look very closely it's only helices that we find! In spin/orbit dynamics, in the nono-optics link I gave above, the references in my essay, and all fields, including with entropy busting self organisation. i.e.

    Self-assembly of helical dynamic structures.

    The helical path of a spinning dipole performs the full roles of the wave AND the particle (a spin entity also translating). There's much more evidence including that in my previous 'Intelligent Bit' paper, but I suspect that may suffice?

    Best wishes

    Peter

    PS. A wave based Compton description also emerges; i.e. see also the linked Raman scattering link and my post.

    I was hoping that we could sneak in without polarization effects. The beamsplitter is acually sensitive to polarization and works differently in the two linear polarizations.

    It is better to start with a circularly polarized photon and then propagate that as right or left handed. The surface plasmon of the beamsplitter will preserve that polarization. Linear polarization reflects differently in a typical beamsplitter. There are now both polarization and beamsplitter operators and this complicates the simple analysis with more possible states.

    I think you question comes down to if a single photon can be circularly as well as linearly polarized and the answer is yes. At the beamsplitter, the transmitted beam is rh for an rh photon while the reflected beam is inverted as a lh photon. Thus the single photon still just has two possible states. Ring lasers tend to run on circularly polarized light.

    I am afraid I did not quite follow your example, though. Sounds like a Stern-Gerlach magnet type of beamsplitter. Coupling magnetic spin effects with the electric field of a surface plasmon beamsplitter would really be tricky.

    Steve,

    Pete will seek to refute every possible explanation that does not end up being 'a wave can only be a helix', which is kind of like pushing a string. Not that his helical model doesn't find applicable consistency, it just doesn't have the physical property component in and of itself to explain why it would continually wrap around a timeline through otherwise empty space. It's his blind spot that everybody else sees through (pssst! over here Pete!). A 'tiny spinning gyroscopes...each with inertia' is only an operational definition of inertia between two or more inertial reference frames. They wouldn't have a continual rate of spin if they each didn't have their own inertia of equal value relative to unit mass.

    Akinbo...can easily see that traverse and longitudinal waves can and do occur 'in a media'. But spin (CW or CCW) a sinusoidal curvature that continuously repeats, around its graphical baseline, and you have a 3D+t graphic picture of a self-limiting, finite volumetric of clearly deterministic wave events of distinct start and end points through spacetime. Let that graphic shape contain energy which is coherent, at density proportionate to amplitude, and rotating and it will induce a signature in a detection system, of a helix of constant OAM. A LINK sausage machine.

    And as You have consistently brought to discussion...

    The task is to find direct correlation between classical characteristics of physical properties, with the vectors of quantum states in a space of infinite possible directions at any loci; in any selected region of real spacetime.

    Energy is a dog that can hunt. jrc

    I keep hearing about these helical thingys and there are a lot of helical thingys already out there. Why are this thingys any different from the thingys that we already have?

    Steve,

    "Why are these things any different from things we already have?"

    Aaahhhh... I'm very glad you asked that.

    Answer: Because they aren't!

    I'm not saying the analytic geometry isn't right, I'm saying; that's what it is. It is just Pete presents it as a model, which it could be if it were in a reference frame of Minkowski 4X4 matrix Blocktime, then the helix could physically operate like an apple peeler stripping off helixes of disturbed spacetime. But it only infers a physical model (the link sausage string made by the helix pudding machine) by projective trigonometry, the time and energy have to be put in by hand. In that sense it is not a model itself, and I dislike 'framework' unless it ontologically exists as the armature of a model of physical material properties. It is rather the same genus but different species as Einstein's GR construct. It's not a theory (though many theories might come of it) and its not a methodology; it is a mechanism, you apply your own method to it.

    Pete, you might consider pitching it as a mechanism, and calling it the Discrete Field Mechanism. And here's is why, Steve..

    As a mechanism it can project a physical model, while as an analytical geometric mechanism it can project vectors trigometrically without interaction physically, non-locally. But those vectors are relational to the helical parameters, the point on the helix incident to projection is the point at unity of coefficients between the helix parameters and those of the "Tiny spinning gyroscope" . Simple right angle induction, point at unity of time , physically it could amount to magnetic traction, but skids at 45 degrees. That sort of interface, its a mechanism. BUT TRANSLATIONALLY, that sets the vector given the proportions of coeffecients; the induced anglular attitude of the axis which is 'direction' (okay... you get to be the quarter, I'll be the twist-off beer cap with the horses head on it, both turn out the same unless we say so) and the size of the disc is 'magnitude' being equal in length of axial and diameter in proportion to helical diameter. It's a vector projector.

    So what ontology might be had to relate those projective vectors as quantum vectors? I can think of a QTD = quantum time density, completely ad hoc. Relative inertial energy density, could be a parameter. Pete's prohibition against anything other than helical (or distortion thereof) being translational of wave mechanics is simply axiomatic, its a mechanism. Can it be Quantum as well as classical?

    Peace out jrc

    So the DFM is a model of the way the universe works, but it is not clear how it makes a quantum gravity. Once science has a quantum gravity, we should be able to create a gravity beamsplitter and prepare neutral matter into coherent quantum states.

    These coherent gravity states will show interference effects, there will be an exchange force that adds to gravity just like exchange adds to charge force. Once we have a nice quantum gravity, a lot of things will become clear. Including the thermodynamics of a gravitational system like the universe. And a quantum gravity will do away with the messy business of black hole singularities and give us back an absolute or proper time.

    As far a helices are concerned, there is a fundamental math that shows how the spiral form of our galaxy bound density wave with a pitch of 12° is a generalization of a line as pitch = -90°, hyperbolas, ellipses, and a circle as pitch = 0°. Spiral trajectories and forms show up a lot in nature and the creation of hydrogen atoms early in the universe must have been as pairs with complementary spin or angular momentum, up and down hydrogen.

    This original pair represents the basic duality of complementary spiral action in the universe. Up hydrogens tended to get together as up galaxies and down hydrogens as down galaxies. Thus it is true that the angular momentum of our galaxy permeates our reality down to the spins of our protons and electrons.

    Steve,

    Very thoughtful insights. First let me address the quantum issue with a nod of approval to spiral trajectories, its in our DNA. But I think the route to proper time is through helical trajectory being a special condition of uniform linear motion, and so Maxwell's finding of the constant 'c' proportion of relative electric and magnetic field strengths provides a time dependent velocity gradient to drop down to spherical nil velocity.

    Pete's DFM is as he often reiterates, is scale hierarchical. So quantum mechanically, superposing his mechanism over real space we can find an ontologic trigometric structure for vector space, thusly. At any loci there exist infinite possible dimensions, that is; lengths of directions. There are infinite possible loci. We can posit an arbitrary start state, magnitude at all scales at 'c' has an effieciency of a cylinder of equal diameter and length and the helix transits one full cycle end to end. So the size of that helical cycle is scale dependent at loci A, and the same size at another loci B will be a quantum equivalent magnitude. The pairs state is either orthogonally aligned (coherent) or anorthoganal (incoherent), coherence and decoherence relate as relative angular attitude and coherent obtains as noninterference, mathematically the algebraic sum will be a whole number. Decoherence is quantum interference which obtains an algebraic sum which is not a whole number, and resolves out of the scale hierarchy of different size 'gyros' with different vector special attitudes and magnitudinal proportion relating to spin. A coherent path of OAM influence simply connected through bifurcation will translate the original loci A parameters to the loci B parameters through a bunch of little gyros, we might retrace the path and find our loci inside a larger helix. But it becomes immediately clear that there are probably numerous other paths that would do the same thing of reaching a whole number algebraic sum for A @ B. All the paths of non-whole number sums are quantum interference. That's why it's good to have a cheap cooling pad under your laptop.

    So I think (within my limits of ignorance) as a mechanism, Pete's DFM might fit the bill as a little hand-held, co-ordinate free, spherical mechanical device with helical parts that could compute both quantumly and classically. There is a probability of one OAM path being taken to a whole number algebraic coherent relationship of A @ B, out of probable others. And there is an undeterminant probability of wholesale dechorent non-whole number path bifurcations.

    "...it's not clear how it makes a quantum gravity" - "And a quantum gravity will do away with black hole singularities and give us back an absolute or proper time."

    That is the 'blind spot', the time and energy have to be put in by hand. I have suggested my own humble invention from beaucoup years ago, of a 'Postulate of relative inertial energy density' as the solution to the mathematically inherent singularity which emerges in GR. But classically human I am adverse to a universe of 'infinite string theory helical birdsnest' spacetime energy that matters. And entropy lies in the quantum interference.

    This has been fun, jrc