Dear Akinbo,

Thank you for writing such an interesting essay.

What I get from it is that the real numbers are not a good model for physical space and physics in general. This leads to an interesting question: why does physics work so well with a bad model of it? Because of all the discrepancies you bring up between R and physics, why is it that R nevertheless works so well?

Another question. Much of physics can be rewritten with finite approximations. Is there some result in physics which demands the real numbers and would not work with a finite approximation?

Thank you again for a great essay.

All the best,

Noson

    Thanks for your comments Marc. Ultimately, what I have argued and tried put across is that whatever is given the attribute of existence must have the capability of the opposite, i.e. non-existence. If our universe perishes, nothing whether physical or mathematical will outlive it and the ball is in the court who propose the opposite to show the place and the manner how such timeless existence is exhibited.

    Regards,

    Akinbo

    Dear Noson,

    Thanks for finding the time to comment on my essay.

    As regards, your first query why the real number system works so well in spite of all the discrepancies highlighted in my essay. My initial answer would be that most models would work well, if adhoc entities are invented to fill the loop holes in the modelling, even though paradoxes, counter-intuitive notions and inconsistencies may result in many cases. An example of this is the use of Calculus using the real number system to model motion. The adhoc entity in this instance is the infinitesimal, dx. For the real number system to work, dx must be capable of being both zero and not zero, i.e.

    dx = 0 and dx тЙа 0

    So if such contradictions are permissible, the real number system can work so well, but may be masking an aspect of reality, which if apprehended will do away with the adhoc improvisations used to cover the loopholes.

    Regarding the second question, as I noted in my essay, physical space must exhibit a duality. It must be be capable of exhibiting discreteness and finite approximations being not infinitely divisible, BUT, physical space, the great separator of things into discreteness can itself not play this role which it plays for other entities on itself, hence it also exhibits a continuous nature. Hence my use of 'syrupy' to describe it. However, despite this parts of space are not eternally existing or so to speak, all parts of this syrup do not have the same expiry dates. It is the expiry dates that confers discreteness on the continuous syrup call space.

    Finally, I love this quote from Roger Penrose, your fellow FQXi member. In his book, The Emperor's New Mind, p.113... "The system of real numbers has the property for example, that between any two of them, no matter how close, there lies a third. It is not at all clear that physical distances or times can realistically be said to have this property. If we continue to divide up the physical distance between two points, we should eventually reach scales so small that the very concept of distance, in the ordinary sense, could cease to have meaning. It is anticipated that at the 'quantum gravity' scale (...10-35m), this would indeed be the case", then further on,

    "We should at least be a little suspicious that (despite the logical elegance, consistency, and mathematical power of the real number system) there might be a difficulty of fundamental principle on the tiniest scales", and "This confidence - perhaps misplaced-..."

    It is the possibility that this confidence is misplaced that my essay tries to explore. I would have wanted your own opinion on how to divide a real number line, if there is always a third element between two elements and going by geometrical considerations these elements are uncuttable into parts, i.e. there is a point or number at each incidence of cutting and points cannot have parts or a part of it.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Regards,

    Akinbo

    *I will copy this reply on your forum as a notice.

    Akinbo,

    To answer your question about points there are discrete concepts of distance. A meter stick has discrete set of centimeter marks, and a discrete set of millimeter marks and so forth. We have no particular problem with integer distances or rational numbers that are distances. The subtle issue is with irranional numbers. An isosceles triangle with two lengths 1 and 45 degree angles has hypotenuse of sqrt{2}. You will not find this in a rational way. This gets one into the question of the continuum and how there are an uncountably infinite number of points between any two points. Dedekind made a point that one can find this point with an infinitely sharp "knife" that cuts perfectly.

    The problem is that we are dealing with infinities and are not directly computable. To compute something means one can run this on a machine and find a numeric expression. However, numbers such as sqrt{2} have no such representation. We can only at best express them numerically with a numerical approximation.

    This gets into my idea of mathematics having a body and soul, where the body involves things that can be physically computed, while the soul involves abstractions that can be infinite or infinitesimal. I am not committed to any existential properties of the "soul," but the body of mathematics is what is transduced into physical quantities. There are some funny elements to this, such as whether the fine structure constant really has this property, or is it after so many decimal points uncertain.

    LC

      Akinbo,

      A good well presented essay on an important topic where poor or limited understanding has always prevailed. I think this situation did need 'flagging up' to help remove creeping complacency. You well identify those present limits of descriptive powers and identify the flaws.

      I second your postulate, but with the proviso we are not ruling out 'disappear' from the Electromagnetic (EM) 'scale' regime as possibly still allowing some higher order quantum 'foam' or dark energy state smaller and not harmonically interactive with EM. i.e. if an EM particle is a cyclone, then the air molecules exist even when it disappears. or if an air molecule disappears; it's constituate fundamental particles remain. So I suggest we should consider 'dimensional orders', so 'disappear' to us may not necessarily be synonomous with 'cease to exist in any way.' How do you feel about that?

      My last question relates to the helix, much analysed in my previous essays. Do you agree we can 'identify' each cycle without 'cutting' anything? If two helical entities approach us directly we see two distinct orbits, yet if we observe from the side we see a continuous sine/cos wave form. The orbiting 'charge' of each may itself be a 'fractal' of that same dynamic, which is consistent with what optical science and neutron interferometry are finding (see my citations last year) with spin-orbit coupling and 'hyperfine' spin states.

      On the surface of the ocean are tiny wavelets on waves on ever bigger waves, through swells and tides. Do you agree the human experience may only see a small 'window' of that sequence, in the same way our eyes can only detect a tiny slice of the EM spectrum? Does that modify your analysis?

      Anyway, a great essay within reasonable non speculative limits. Good rating well earned.

      I hope and am sure you'll also like mine, revealing a few tricks and their implications, also important for improved understanding. I have a short video expanding on the implications (perhaps for after all the essay reading!)

      Well done and very best of luck in the contest.

      Peter

        Thanks for looking in Lawrence. I left some questions on your forum, which you have answered in part here.

        When you say here that "A meter stick has discrete set of 10-2m marks, and a discrete set of 10-3m marks and so forth..."

        Thus this and so forth extend beyond the 10-35m (Planck length limit)?

        In our universe, we know from experience that there can be a line AB, along which for example Newton's first law tells us an object can move if not subjected to force. We also know that a sharp knife can be swung and cut through this line despite not being infinitely sharp and despite Calculus suggesting that the line contains an infinite number of points. Following from these, i.e. the observation that cutting of a line can take place in our universe without an infinitely sharp knife, and in spite of the supposed presence of an infinite number of points between A and B, would it be unreasonable to look at other ways that this cutting can be logically achieved without the sort of absurdities that Dedekind tried to avoid?

        On the question of the continuum, would the fact that there can be no other point between two points not be sufficient to establish the continuum? I suggest if the points are "discrete concepts of distance" as you said, but there can be no other distance between two of these discrete concepts, then the continuum is established without appealing to an infinity of points. The remaining piece of the puzzle is, if distance cannot separate points, what can? It is here that we need to question whether points are eternally existing entities, and if not whether they have the same lifespan.

        Best regards,

        Akinbo

        Hi Peter,

        Thanks for looking in. I appreciate your comments and consider them. When you talk of 'disappearing' possibly being implemented by 'dimensional orders', this is possible for a universe or for physicists who believe that there can be any number of dimensions ranging from 0 to even 10 in our universe. I for now believe that ALL that exists does so in 3 dimensions. A line with length, but without breadth or depth cannot exist in my model. Likewise, a surface, which is usually referred to as 2-dimensional for ease of analysis, but in reality if its thickness is zero, that surface cannot exist. You may want to show me one such surface which has no thickness yet exists :-)

        I will check your essay this weekend. I had browsed through before but all this Bell's stuff getting me dizzy so I have left it to others. I however asked Gordon Watson to have a look at your essay and that of Edwin Klingmann because he seems to have a good grasp of what is involved. However, it appears you two have been in touch before and each has decided to stick only with his own model without compromise. Will look at your essay as I said and will rate appropriately.

        Best regards,

        Akinbo

        Akinbo,

        You seem to infer my hypothesis of 'smaller' states of motion than the limit for electromagnetic harmonic coupling may mean something other than "ALL that exists does so in 3 dimensions." Far from it. THAT is the big difference, and so consistent with just about all findings with no mysteries (i.e. the 'hyperfine' spin found in neutron interferometry).

        It just needs thinking beyond current doctrinal assumptions; So called 'quantum spin' is then just the rotation of the charge which orbits in the 'spin-orbit coupling' of light. In a way it's perhaps rather arrogant of us to assume we can 'detect' all that can exist, so I say you're right with "disappear", but that may not imply other things 'beyond' that! In the same way can't assume the current observable limits of the universe are all there is. We know well that's untrue!

        I must read Gordon's essay. We were in very close agreement about 'QM' previously. I suggest there's no mystery, it's all 3D and OAM, and show the it's the 'sock-switch' maths 'con trick' that confounds current doctrine.

        Have you seen the video? Do you have 9 mins to spare yet?

        Peter

        Akinbo,

        As time grows short, I am revisiting those I have read to see if I have rated yet. Yours I have not so I am doing so today.

        Thank you for reading mine.

        Jim

        Hi Akinbo,

        I enjoyed your thought provoking essay. Your proposed physics without conservation laws is I believe even more of an extreme revolution than the Instantaneous Action At A Distance principle that I am advocating. However it is indeed worthy of further thought.

        My feeling that the measurable fundamental quantities (mass and charge) that we can detect and measure with Newtonian mutual interaction force laws are real and are conserved. The historical problem came with the development of the concept of Energy. I believe that energy is not fundamental but is rather a human engineering invention which acts a very convenient book keeping method of accounting for force and motion. It also displays a property which implies conservation of this quantity and this tool undoubtedly hastened the industrial revolution and got physicists interested in this industrial quantity. However even by the time of Einstein and Dirac, energy became conflated with mass and required an interpretation of what was meant by negative and disappearing energy. While retaining the dimensions of energy, new concepts entered into the conservation of what was always a man made quantity. Now logically you seem to make a case that if we continue to use the current definitions of all of the supposedly conserved quantities we run into contradictions implying the failure of current theories.

        I have not had time to really study your argument, but would it be true that if energy conservation was not as fundamental as the conservation of Newtonian mass and charge (ie no Special and General Relativity) then maybe we could retain conservation as a bedrock of physics?

        Your essay demonstrates that there is much to discuss further in this area where physics meets philosophy. Well Done.

        Regards

        Neal Graneau

          Thanks Neal for your comments. Actually, there is obedience to the most fundamental conservation in what I describe. Perhaps, you will agree that displacement as an entity is more fundamental than energy, momentum, mass, charge, etc or you may not agree. But in motion and in Action at a distance, displacement is conserved. That is, in attraction or repulsion between bodies, the amount of displacement created or destroyed between bodies for repulsion or attraction respectively IS EQUAL TO the amount of displacement destroyed or created respectively outside the bodies in the line of interaction.

          From my cosmological perspective, nothing is ultimately conserved or stated in an alternative way, the sum of all being sought to be conserved is zero. That is why the universe can emerge from Nothing and expand, which Universe, when you add all the plus and minus side still sums to zero. Trying not to digress outside the topic here but can give a link to my tentative model, if you are interested. If the Universe starts from zero, is currently zero and will end up zero, then no mathematical laws are broken. In my model, Mass is and Radius is -, both summing to zero. As the universe starts from zero mass and zero radius, both M and R increase in tandem. The thermal history of the Big bang model of the Universe bears this out. Mass increases with radius. No point containing all the mass now in the universe from Day one - an absurdity, if I may call it so.

          Regards,

          Akinbo

          Dear Akinbo,

          This is true:

          "The non-zero dimensional point does not have an eternal existence, but can

          appear and disappear spontaneously, or when induced to do so "

          Previously produced many questions, such as:

          What is the distribution of the duration of the non-zero-dimensional points (particles)?

          Why proton has a very long duration?

          Why there are fermions and bosons?

          What kind of divisions is allowed in physics? ...

          You explained it, to a large extent, and you'll get a high rating. I invite you to comment my essay.

          Regards,

          Branko

          Dear Akinbo,

          After reading your essay for me there is one key take away, namely that to quantize something (in this case space) it would make sense to have something acting like a separator. In my opinion, the experiments showing that the spacetime is smooth and not discrete are very convincing, but it is a completely different matter to see this principle formulated in terms of sufficient reason. It is very surprising and nice to understand it from this point of view. I hope you do carry on with your research, for which I am rating your essay accordingly.

          Warm regards,

          Alma

          Dear Akinbo,

          thanks for reading my essay and the comment. In principle, I agree with you that there is no real infinity. As you I see it as a concept to an value which can be arbitrarily large (but not fixed).

          Certainly, if there is a conflict between physics and math I would prefer physics (if it is experimentally confirmed). But I think it is unlikely.

          I also read your essay and rate them higher (8 points) but with no real effect on the number.

          Good look for the contest

          Torsten

          Akinbo,

          You referred to Gordon Watson's essay in discussing mine. I did indeed find it consistent, if the maths slightly too complex for me! Gordon has also now made very generous comments supporting mine and we're discussing others.

          I see I have my 'minute of fame' at the top, which is far too early for the tape and last minute bun fight so all scores welcomed! I still think yours is under rated and see it's near the cusp. (I checked and yes I did rate it).

          Very best of luck in the run in.

          Peter

          Dear Akinbo,

          Contests FQXi - is primarily a competition for new ideas. You give such ideas. Your ideas are close to me in spirit, to overcome the split basis of fundamental science and the the "LifeWorld" (E.Husserl). My high score. It is always interesting to discuss with you on the forum.

          I invite you to see my analysis of the philosophical foundations of mathematics and physics, the method of ontological constructing of the primordial generating structure, "La Structure mère" as the ontological framework, carcass and foundation of knowledge, the core of which - the ontological (structural, cosmic) memory. I believe that the scientific picture of the world should be the same rich senses of the "LifeWorld", as a picture of the world poets and philosophers. Today, more than ever, are relevant philosophical covenants of A. Einstein and J. Wheeler:

          "Presently the physicist is compelled to deal with philosophical problems in much bigger degree, than it had to be done to physics of the previous generations. To it physicists are compelled by difficulties of their own science." "Philosophy is too important to be left to the philosophers."

          Kind regards,

          Vladimir

          Hi Akinbo,

          Thanks for kindly commenting in my forum, and for voting me up. The bottom line on our disagreement about mathematics and philosophy is also the bottom line of your essay: "I ... move the motion that we exorcise the lingering millennia old Parmenidean spell on our mathematics and physics and allow that what exists can perish. Nothing is ultimately conserved."

          I draw the line at "existence exists" as the necessary and sufficient foundation of logic -- I'll concede Aristotle and even Parmenides that much. :-)

          Even though I regard your philosophy as nihilistic, I'll give you as much credit as I give Aristotle for being entertaining as well as provocative!

          Best,

          Tom

          Dear Akinbo,

          I finally got to read your essay. Since it deals with a subject matter on which I am not expert, I can not make definitive assertions, but I may be able to help direct you towards potentially fruitful directions.

          1) I have the impression that subject matter of your essay is most directly covered by measure theory. Indeed there are "pathological" measures which may be useful in considering these sorts of problems. One is the Cantor set, which has measure zero but contains an uncountable number of points. There are others, and they may inform your view on this matter.

          2) Until I took set theory I had no appreciation (and I think this is also true for almost everyone else, including physicists) that any real number, say, 1, is a completely different animal from its natural number counterpart. Learning how to represent these numbers by sets teaches one to appreciate the difference. In short while each natural number can be considered as a single object, each real number is an infinity unto itself. Our notation helps bring about the failure to appreciate this: if we wanted to properly notate, say, the real number 1, we would have to write 1.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... stretching over an infinite distance. I think this distinction may have some bearing on your arguments.

          3) Your example involving Lagos and New York reminded me of the Alcubierre metric.

          4) You may also want to consider how your arguments turn out in other kinds of geometries, like the projective geometry, for example.

          Again, I regret that I could not say anything definitive about your ideas, but I hope that you found my pointers useful.

          Best wishes,

          Armin

          Dear Akinbo,

          You have presented a very interesting essay. I like how you take special care in distinguish the context of mathematics and physics in order to discuss your ideas. Moreover, you are able to analyse this different context and arrive to the conclusion that the meaning in both areas is different. I think that is a very good philosophical work.

          As a matter of speculation, is your essay supporting the idea that space and time must be discrete?

          Kind Regards,

          Yafet

          An enjoyable read Akinbo..

          I thought your reasoning was very tight, until some point near the end where an unwarranted conclusion or two slip in. But I'd have to read again for detail, to point out any error or false claim, and I must instead move on to a few more essays.

          All the Best,

          Jonathan

          About the finite divisibility of physical objects: rather than the need of a distance interval to insert in a division, mentioning atoms as roughly indivisible parts of material objects, would be more directly clear, wouldn't it ?

          "there is a limit to the number of extended points or fundamental lengths, but there is also no distance between those points, since that distance will also consist of points."

          There is a limit to the number of atoms, but there is a distance between atoms. That distance does not consist of atoms ; it is subject to a quantum uncertainty, that is smaller than this inter-atom distance (in the case of a covalent bound), but still quite bigger than the Planck length, which is thus irrelevant here.

          "where to cut is a problem" : I don't think butchers see it so.

          "Then, as you turn the screw further, beyond the sub-atomic scale of quarks towards the fundamental scale of length, ~ 10-35 m, the unexpected happens. At the scale of the fundamental building block, the blue extension is ultimately made of a featureless length, same with the yellow, green and red strips. At that fundamental color-blind scale, how is the boundary to be demarcated, say between one blue strip and another blue strip or between a blue and a yellow strip?(...) reality is fundamentally One thing"

          You are telling a lot about what happens at the Planck scale. How can you know that much on what it actually looks like at that scale ? Colored objects are made of atoms; the information of color is carried by these atoms. Thus the division defined by colors cannot go smaller than the inter-atom distance. There is no point to develop qualifications about what happens when trying to physically cut at smaller scales, since we have no way to even try physically cutting things there. All we can do is take our best mathematical theories of physics, which were verified by experiments, and discuss what they mathematically define at smaller scales (quantum fields, structure of nucleus...). But we still don't have verified mathematical theories of what happens at the Planck scale, so I see no sense of even developing a discussion about it, as you did, as if we did have things to say there. Personally, I think it is more interesting to discuss the things we know (quantum physics), which already have interesting consequences on the issue (position uncertainties of atoms at the atomic scales), than writing an essay about how things look like at the Planck scale (which we actually don't know) in ways that ignore the known quantum uncertainties at the atomic scale.

          "possibly at a future time, [space] would collapse, reduce to the minimum length and disappear (Big crunch)" : this was considered among scientific hypotheses before the discovery of the acceleration of expansion by dark energy, but since this discovery, the Big crunch is not considered scientifically plausible anymore.

          "Quantum mechanics, an object, e.g. an electron at a location in the atomic orbit can without seeming to traverse the 'space in between', arrive at a different location, the so called 'quantum jumping'"

          The electron does not jump from any definite position to any other definite position, because it never has any definite position. "Orbits" are not states of definite position, but states of rather definite energy. To be more precise : quantum states of the atoms are in a Hilbert space where can be defined a Hamiltonian operator that distinguishes "distinct energy levels" by its eigenvectors. Depending on circumstances, we can consider a given atom to be in a specific energy level in the list of possible energy levels (eigenvectors of the Hamiltonian), but nothing generally obliges this. The energies of these levels are defined down to a quite thinner accuracy than the intervals between these energy levels themselves. However they are still not infinitely precise, since atoms are not isolated systems but interact with their environment, at least the electromagnetic field. In particular, the typical time it takes to emit a photon, defines a quantum uncertainty on the interval between energy levels themselves.

          So, since orbitals are not states of definite position, any question of "space in between" is senseless.

          "extended points may not be eternally existing physical objects"

          Before wondering if they are eternally existing, a first question would be whether they are physical objects at all. Basically, "extended points" is just an English phrase. It is not clear if this phrase can make any sense in physics, and which one, depending on a theory of physics that we need to specify as a reference if we want to give our English phrases any precise meaning.

          "but can appear and disappear spontaneously, or when induced to do so"

          Do you allow for a quantum uncertainty on whether or not they did ?

          "I crave the reader's indulgence here to temporarily set aside current doctrine on the eternal existence of points"

          I never heard about any such doctrine, as concerns physics. (There is no such doctrine in maths either, since "eternal" should refer to a stability along time, but Euclidean geometry does not admit any concept of time in the first place, so that there is no quality of eternity either to be formulated and claimed in the mathematical language of geometry).

          I might continue another time with the last pages, but to tell my general opinion: I see this essay as rather boring, with ideas more repeated than developed, and not well related enough to what is actually known about physics. On roughly the same topic, I found the essay by William T. Parsons, "Are Boltzmann Brains running Hilbert's Hotel?" much more interesting and relevant. See my comment there about the issue of the infinitely small.

          18 days later

          Akinbo,

          I have been thinking more about your question. It seems to me that the problem reduces to whether or not integer numbers are a subset of real numbers. Here is what I mean by this ... integer numbers are treated as though they have an infinite amount of precision ... i.e., 1 is equal to 1.0000000000 ad infinitum. Most measurements are real numbers of some sort and they have a fixed amount of precision ... such as 1 inch = 2.54 centimeter or something similar. So, if it is possible for a real number to have an infinite amount of precision, then space can be infinitely divided. If integers are a subset of reals and integers have infinite precision, then reals should also have infinite precision. I was taught that integers are a subset of the reals ... but perhaps that is not actually true.

          Best Regards and Good Luck,

          Gary Simpson

            Dear Gary,

            Thanks for your interest and comment. You are likely a better mathematician than myself but let me answer as best as I can.

            By the statement, "if it is possible for a real number to have an infinite amount of precision, then space can be infinitely divided", I take it that if a real number CANNOT have an infinite amount of precision, then space cannot be infinitely divided. By infinite amount of precision, I take this to mean as conventionally held that between any two real numbers there is always a third.

            Now, this definition of real numbers is an assumption, not a found and proved fact. That being the case, suppose this assumption is wrong? Supposing space is not infinitely divisible? What becomes of our physics and mathematics? Do we have a Plan B? It is this Plan B, that I have been working on and the focus of my essay this year and in 2013. The need for this Plan B also seems necessitated by the various paradoxes that plague Plan A.

            Here, let me again quote an eminent mathematician, Roger Penrose in his book, The Emperor's New Mind, p.113... "The system of real numbers has the property for example, that between any two of them, no matter how close, there lies a third. It is not at all clear that physical distances or times can realistically be said to have this property. If we continue to divide up the physical distance between two points, we should eventually reach scales so small that the very concept of distance, in the ordinary sense, could cease to have meaning. It is anticipated that at the 'quantum gravity' scale (...10-35m), this would indeed be the case", then further on,

            "We should at least be a little suspicious that (despite the logical elegance, consistency, and mathematical power of the real number system) there might be a difficulty of fundamental principle on the tiniest scales", and "This confidence - perhaps misplaced-..."

            In my current essay, I raised the issue how to divide a real number line, if there is always a third element between two elements and going by geometrical considerations these elements are uncuttable into parts, i.e. there is a point or number at each incidence of cutting and points (or the real number of infinite precision that you mention) cannot have parts (or an imprecise part thereof).

            I am not too sure I have made my point clear enough, but you are welcome to clarify any aspects. With Calculus - Revision 2.0, you are the boss! :)

            Thanks,

            Akinbo

            Akinbo,

            First, let me offer congratulations. It looks like you will make the finals. It is odd that no announcement has been made.

            Regarding my statement ... "If it is possible for a real number to have an infinite amount of precision, then space can be infinitely divided" ... The logical contrapositive is ... "If space cannot be infinitely divided then real numbers cannot have infinite precision" ... Your statement is the negation of mine rather than the contrapositive. A contrapositive is always true. A negation is not always true but often it is true. In this case, they feel about the same to me. The answer to your question is "Yes". In my opinion, there is a direct link between the divisibility of space and the precision of real numbers.

            Regarding the paper by Dr. Phips, I liked it. He raised many good issues. His explanation of GPS timing was very helpful to me. He also mentioned a lateral force associated with the flow of electricity that he believes is not presently considered. The essay by Dr. Neil Granaeau (spelling?) mentions the same force.

            One of the essays discusses the difference between mathematical infinity and physical infinity with physical infinity being impossible. He created a new symbol for physical infinity and called it "Bravo". The symbol is a "B" with a little tail on it. The inverse of his "Bravo" is similar to the smallest increment that you are seeking. Perhaps you should simply choose a symbol and define it as the smallest distance possible and then work through some of the math. Presumably, the Planck length will be related to the symbol that you choose. You can then define a set of alternate "Real" numbers that have a finite amount of precision. Quantization will be built into this number system.

            Here is something that might be of interest. In mathematics, there is a theorem named the Lagrange Four Squares Theorem. What it states is that any integer can be constructed from the sum of the squares of four integers. Basically, you start with the integer one and you can construct all the other integers. This is applicable to your question because all rational numbers can be produced as the ratio of two integers and all integers can be produced by the four squares method. Therefore, the only numbers that remain are the irrational reals such as e and pi and sqrt2, sqrt3 ... etc. It seems to me that the number system that you are looking for is very intimately related to irrational numbers.

            Best Regards and Good Luck,

            Gary Simpson

            a month later

            Akinbo,

            As requested, I've read the text of the SR essay that you provided. Firstly, let me state that I do not consider myself to be very knowledgeable regarding SR. I am aware of the paradoxes and I studied the subject very briefly in a Physics class in college. People who take a degree in Physics dedicate an entire semester or more to the subject. My background includes only a few lectures, some homework, and a test.

            I have a few comments and observations.

            You should put your name, a date, and a revision number in the title block on the front page.

            On page 3, you apply SR to photons. I don't think SR allows that. Your details are correct, but they contain an assumption that SR does not allow. You need a third reference frame to measure the motion of both photons. That reference frame is your point O. The problem here is that SR is limited to two reference frames at once. So, you can use O and one photon, or you can use both photons. But you cannot use O and both photons.

            So, the only thing that the observer at O can state is that the two photons returned at the same time after 2 years. My understanding of SR does not allow me to say how much time passed for the photons. It appears to me that they are timeless.

            Having said that, I agree with you. You SHOULD be able to use as many reference frames as you want. And you SHOULD get the same conclusion for every reference frame. That is one of the things that troubles me regarding SR.

            On a related matter, what you present is part of the logic associated with "pair production". Photons are typically created in pairs. The reason is that the photon has momentum and momentum must be conserved.

            When AE defined the velocity of light, he used the round-trip time in a manner that is essentially what you present. To my thinking, this obscures something very important. For this thought experiment to happen in reality, the photons must be emitted at O. They must be absorbed at the mirrors. They must be emitted again at the mirrors. And they must be reabsorbed at their point of origin. Therefore, the absorption and emission character of light is built into SR. Essentially, I think that making sense or SR will require a solution to the mechanics of absorption and emission.

            I suppose it is possible that dark matter is a wave medium. But it is also possible that dark matter is not real but instead is the result of incorrect understanding of gravity.

            Best Regards and Good Luck,

            Gary Simpson

              Gary,

              I will incorporate some of your advice into any possible paper that may develop. Many thanks for your very useful comments.

              Generally speaking, and based on my understanding Galilean relativity predict that the two photons will return in 2 years, but Special relativity does not permit the addition of velocities to be above c, and so in that case the photons will return in 3 years. All in all I am satisfied with your comment.

              Regards,

              Akinbo

              Akinbo,

              The value of two years is based upon reference frame O. The three year value that you use mixes reference frame O on the trip to the mirrors and the reference frame of the photons on the trip back. You must use the same reference frame for both parts of the journey.

              Good Luck,

              g

              4 months later

              Greetings Akinbo -

              Are you close to Lagos? I passed through to catch a cheap flight to New York and then my home in Louisville KY on returning from Peace Corps service building fish ponds in Cameroon in 1992. Hope the maniacal Boko Haram menace poses no direct threat to your life and work.

              Pardon my long delay in replying to your comment (repeated below) on my Trick or Truth essay, but some personal struggles with divorce attorneys (and the US surveillance state's sniffing the cellphone-panties of its so-called allies) have led once again to a few months of incarceration. In full and lifelong but peaceful revolt against state-sponsored espionage and the global rule of politicians' manmade laws over the natural laws of science, I'm also battling the absurd inconsistencies in physics relating to big-bang creationism and to the zoo of alleged particles of zero dimension assumed to be simultaneously multidimensional waves??

              The predictive power and self-consistency of math and logic, driven by conflict in theory v experiment, prodded Einstein toward his novel assumption of light-speed constancy thereby refining Newton's magical action-at-a-distance into Riemannian spacetime curvature. I'm betting the same math and further novel assumptions - again driven by confusion such as dark matter, dark energy (and why not dark time?) - will do the same regarding priests Lemaitre, Guth and Hawking's magical inflation of reality from a mythical primeval-atom singularity.

              "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and the night sky will provide it once technical sensitivity advances sufficiently (if it hasn't already?) to permit detection of fluctuations in the waves of CMB temperature anisotropies: these waves are not a static ancient postcard from the last scattering surface at cosmological reionization, but rather dance like the surface of a gentle sea in a cadence set by the collective stochastic swarming of galaxies through gravitation's 4 dimensionality. COBE, WMAP, PLANCK and WEBB aren't showing us baby-picture postcards from the remote coastal sea at eternity's birth, they're showing us we are floating dynamically on that very sea all around and within us in the form of unobservable spacetime curvature's galactic-scale geodesics and the quark-scale zero-point ether-energy of quantum jittering.

              Such novel ideas never take hold peacefully among the titanic professorial intellects battling ruthlessly for scientific funding supremacy in the zero-sum, winner-take-all, one-theory-wins-only-by-destroying-competitors game of taming reality into the cage of grand unification; an early adherent of continuous creation of our eternal universe named Giordano Bruno was burned alive by the Pope and his priests of fanaticism in the year 1600 while Galileo quieted his visionary courtship of Truth rather than be summarily assassinated by the monstrous power of religious superstition.

              The somnambulant spirits of Bruno and Hoyle fuel my revolt against the conventional witchcraft of limitlessly tunable accelerating inflation, a Rube-Goldbergian theory so malleable as to embrace any observational wrinkles whatsoever arising through observation to confront it. As an applied mathematician, the acceleratingly inflationary model of an expanding universe is beyond abominable, it is an outright rape of the elegant self-consistency and falsifiable predictability of relativity itself.

              Would like to respond to the issues you raise below if you're still active here at fqxi... do you have a gmail address? I'm at kevinbootes09ATgmailDOTcom

              (Hello Kevin,

              I would not know your motivation for writing in this poetic way. Perhaps, to hide the many hidden truths, which I find, from those who do not desire that truth return to our physics.

              I will not engage you on the Michelson-Morley experimental results which you pointed to.

              I will first like you to tell me where this wonderful tourist destination called FlatLand is?

              Second, concerning the photon, someone in this community, Armin Shirazi wrote a paper where he discussed a 'photon existence paradox', although he claims to still support SR. It goes somehow like this, if it is as it is claimed that time does not flow for a photon, then it follows that the time of emission of a photon is the same as the time of its absorption, how then can photon exist?

              All the best in the competition.

              Regards,

              Akinbo)