"Thus, Newton's laws were found to be corrected by terms from special relativity, and then corrected again by terms from general relativity."

This needs more elaboration. It is a real challenge to derive Newton's laws from GR without a series of assumptions. Actually, it is a real challenge to solve a simple mass-spring system using GR but it is easy to do that with Newton's laws. It appears that GR and Newton's laws describe different worlds. There is no continuity. The question is: if you did not know Newton's laws and someone gave you the GR equation, would you be able to find Newton's laws? Obviously, you would not know what to look for.

Dear dr Smolin

Congratulations with your Whole,But can you be so kind and answer you invented or discover it.?It was simply the result of your deep su.

bcondcious event or simply during the sport exercisess, Now as I understand we have only one game in town- naturaListic whole.Thank you very much- my stomac do not like it.

M.Kozlowski

Lee,

Temporal naturalism, I like. Should we say that in the classical world, nature is independent of observation but in the quantum world, observation breaks coherence? The latter is too simply stated. In my essay, I also say that math helps us to model nature inexactly but the human mind, math and the physical world can connect to bring understanding now and aid in predicting the future utilizing this connection. You obviously have spend time pondering these views. Your eloquence speaks to that.

I wonder how you might view my connections of mind, math, and the physical world.

Jim

    Sigh. Terribly out of line. It must be the bit of frustration... Tsk.

    This is exactly the trouble in science. The language is inaccurate. We have statements like "arbitrary transformations of space and time". But what are we to understand by these? Do these mean that space moves and that time moves? Or are we to understand that there is motion through space?

    Very few dare to challenge the conventions. Very few dare to correct the language. Because when they dare, people who think they understand make a point by quoting others - conveniently, so that when refuted, they make the excuse "I didn't say that, so and so did." Tsk.

    I say "motion transformations." Einstein's "arbitrary space-time transformations" is a trickery and a lie.

    -

    I continue. You call "mystical" the belief in the independent existence of mathematical entities. You point out that they "add nothing and explain nothing". Well, I do not see the idea of independent existence of mathematical entities as trying to add or explain anything, as if it was any kind or addition or speculation. It is not. Mathematical facts are necessary facts. I cannot see any sense in which the truth of 2+2=4 can be said to be or have been "non-existing" at any time. It is the belief in the possibility of non-existence of such truths, that I would call a mystification.

    What is the problem ? You have the problem that you think that whenever such ideas are raised, it "involves us in a pile of questions that, unlike questions about mathematics, cannot be answered by rational argument from public evidence."

    Which questions ? I looked at the questions you listed on page 5, and sorry, this is just laughable. You call these "questions" ? Well of course it is always possible to feel uncomfortable with any idea or any truth, by the sickness of reacting to them by asking tons of "questions" which may be naively thought of as legitimate but which are in fact senseless, just a psychological reaction of inventing problems where there is no problem, because the truth that is seem "problematic" was not grasped in the correct manner. Such reactions are frequent in the crackpot world. For example those who cannot accept relativity theory may ask questions such as "What causes the slowdown of time ?" "What causes the contraction of length ?". On other topics, one can ask "What is an electric charge", "what is a number", "how dense is a black hole", "what happened before the big bang", "what is a specie", trying (as I saw science philosophers do) to make sense of "structural realism" so as to define what is the reality of the structures that are studied by biology and other sciences; and wonderiong a long time about whether light and other quantum substances must be "explained" as waves or as made of particles.

    Example: "If the FAS existed prior or timelessly, what brought it into existence?". Well, nothing, why ? If it existed timelessly then there is no need of any such thing as an event of bringing it into existence. It would only be needed under the assumption of existence of a previous time when that FAS did not exist. But the idea of such a time is a belief I would call a deep, crazy mystification. There never was a need of any physical event to create an FAS because there never was in the first place any physical time when it did not exist and remained to be created. As simple as that.

    "How can something exist and not be made of matter?"

    Well, and how can matter exist and not be made of something else ?

    You choose to call "mystification" the belief of existence of something else than matter. But, well, can we reject as "mystification" the belief of existence of anything at all ? Of course not, as we are aware of our own existence. So we can only reject a belief in the existence of some specific kind of things in favor of that of another kind. The question is to know which are the kinds of things that exist. The only mystification would be to misattribute our existential beliefs in ways not supported by evidence. Our own existence, as conscious beings, is something clear, that cannot be denied. The existence of mathematical truths is also clear as we can study and understand them. But the existence of matter, what the heck is that ? We cannot access it, all we have is sensations about it. These sensations naively suggest to the layman a real presence of material things by means of their coherence (logical patterns). These patterns can be described mathematically. But when analyzed in details, we discover quantum physics, which strongly indicates that material things do not really exist at a fundamental level, but are created by our conscious perceptions of them. Indeed: for example I even heard in this debate on interpretations of quantum physics, all of whose participants are hardcore materialists, a report that many physicists tend to dismiss the reality of the wavefunction, and at the same time hold that "nothing else is real", which would imply that "nothing [exists] at all" (since they did not make the step of admitting another kind of fundamental reality). So I'm not inventing the idea that quantum physics denies the existence of matter, even materialist physicists somehow acknowledge it.

    So we have evidence (or at least strong indications from experience) that matter is not real. Now if a belief in the existence of something we clearly see (mathematical truths) is "mystification", then, how can we call the hard unshakable belief which you expressed in your text, that only one kind of things that we cannot see (matter) exists while other kinds of things which we clearly perceive (our own self and mathematical truths) don't, in spite of the evidence from modern physics that matter is not real ? Maybe "total insanity", why not ?

    (I still didn't finish...)

    You end with 2 observations, the first saying that math objects are independent of time. This is an odd thing to say, as it makes just as much sense to say that math objects are independent of spatial location and temperature. Or just independent of the physical world. But then that is contrary to your 2nd observation, which is anti-Platonist.

    Dear Lee Smolin,

    Your concluding statement "Properties of mathematical objects, once evoked, are true independent of time" goes against logic. If it is independent of time after evoking, it should be independent even before. How can one know that it was not invoked before? Suppose one invents chess again without knowing that the game existed before, will the structure of the game be different? No. The reason: there is something independent of time, something that existed beforehand that affects the invoked 'mathematical object'.

    You say about chess, "We invent the rules but, once invented, there is a set of possible plays of the game which the rules allow." Actually what we invent is not the rules, we are just assigning the chess-pieces some 'arbitrary properties'. The actual rules are mathematical, very simple like 1+1=2, and this is independent of time, space and the physical world. So if an alien or a demon or an omnipotent creator (irrespective of where he is and when he does it) assigns the same properties to the chess-pieces, he will get the same structures, and it will be possible for him to "deduce general theorems about the outcomes of games".

    The statement "there is no reason to think that game existed before we invented the rules." is correct, if by ' rules' you mean the assigned properties. But the mathematical laws that decides the emergent structures (once the assigned properties are given) existed before the game was invented. The absence of a clear distinction between 'properties' and 'laws', I think, is the problem.

    Your attempt to resurrect time is refreshing. I hope you will start resurrecting space also.

    Lee

    A very thought provoking essay. In light of quantum gravity, it may very well be the case that such a theory can only be consistent when formulated in terms of exceptional mathematical structures. String/M-theory is a testament to this, with consistency restricting the bosonic string to 26-dimensions. (Bosonic M-theory would push this to the critical dimension D=27) Hence, a pure Platonist may go on to propose that any natural manifestation of pure mathematics, is restricted long before inception.

    Dear Lee,

    one of the best essays I have read so far.

    Your evoking by human imagination is very well coined.

    The sentence "So the effectiveness of mathematics in physics is limited to what is reasonable" is so true.

    An example of what is unreasonable is the "Lorentz transformations" introduced by Poincare. Mathematically correct but unphysical. It led to the Einstein relativity trap "evoking" covariance. How can we naturalists find a way out of this mathematical prison? You might be able to help.

    Best

    Lutz

    The Lorentz transformation is not the culprit. Its interpretation is. Remember that the famed E=mc2 was derived according to the tacit assumption that space and time are absolutes (i.e., not influenced by anything - no fluxions or motions influence space and time); and because of this, the mass or energy variables are substituted into the transformation equations in order to indicate the effects of motion transformations that depart from the classical velocity transformations. I have persistently stated this for many years now.

    Einstein's idea of space-time transformations is bunk. What nature is showing us is the idea of motion transformations. The whole cosmos is a motion (kinetic) construct - formations of motions, configurations of motions. The idea of configuration space or spatial configurations is an illusion. Einstein led us to an undecided view of reality with his idea of the arbitrary transformations of space and time, and that of the transformations strictly of motion, which he never explained. Perhaps, he knew it, or perhaps he didn't know it. But the equations suggest the transformations of motion - which is why the Lorentz equation is an equation regarding motion.

    Apparently, to cover all bases, Einstein put forth the arbitrary space-time transformations idea, but the substitution of the mass variables into the Lorentz equations is according to the 'classical' idea of motion transformations, which has clearly indicated to us that mass is a kinetic construct. Mass is a kinetic energy configuration, which is why we are able to release so much motion from our nuclear reactions where mass is lost.

    Descartes and Maxwell were closer to truth when they considered the idea of motions in the space-occupying ethereal medium - which is never really 'ethereal' because it is always imbued with underlying motions; the idea of the ether and motion together complete the idea of substance (i.e., matter or mass-energy) in space.

    The maths of our science will never get clarified until we thoroughly embrace the idea of motion transformations and altogether disregard Einstein's arbitrary space-time transformations idea, calling it as it is - an illusion.

    But present-day scientists and theorists are too afraid to champion the idea of strictly the motion transformations. It remains to be seen whether our FQXi bunch will muster the courage and good sense to finally clarify the facts and evidences and raise their hands to vote for the truth.

    It will not be surprising if eventually somebody will say that what they mean when they say space-time transformations is the idea of motion transformations. But then it would likely be hogwash if they do not acknowledge the ideas presented here.

    I have stated all along that physical reality has been according to the laws of motion (the transformations of motion), not the pseudo-laws of space-time transformations that Einstein put forth. In all that I have written on the 'physics' of reality, I have always proponed the idea of strictly the motion formations (i.e., configurations/constructs) and motion transformations...

    All matter, mass, energy, forces, fields, gravity, all phenomena can be explained as motion constructs - all according to the comprehensive laws of motion.

    I think Smolin, Tegmark, Aguirre and the whole FQXi gang should say something regarding these. Otherwise, they'll prove themselves not really true to the professed cause of FQXi... I am not saying that they are exploiters who simply gather our ideas for their own use and glory; I am saying that they should at least take some responsibility by giving answers to the comments here since they started this FQXi thing... So, come on. Why so quiet?

    I wish I could say these things in a milder way. But it is difficult because of the hardness of the scientific community...

    Now about your page 7.

    You wrote : "the answer to Wigner's question is that mathematics is reasonably effective in physics, which is to say that, where ever it is effective, there is reason for it". This claims comes as logically deduced from your philosophy, in the traditional way of philosophers, that is, as a pure theoretical (but not even so carefully logical) blind guess, that proudly comes as self-sufficient reasoning with no need to check it against any review of how things were observed to be : here, the measure of how mathematics was found to be effective in reality. Indeed, where is your review of these observations ? Instead of observing or checking anything, you satisfy yourself to prophesy: "There will never be discovered a mathematical object whose study can render unnecessary the experimental study of nature". Still you are coming with philosophical principles whose study seem to suffice for you to deduce in the abstract how effective should math be to the study of nature. Just like usual (bad) philosophers, your confidence in your principles makes you see unnecessary not only to abstain concluding and humbly consider to wait and see what future discoveries may show (maybe giving your claims a status of falsifiable predictions to be tested and eventually refuted), but you also see it unnecessary to check their compatibility with the present record of the state of things actually found by modern science: whether the effectiveness of mathematics that was actually "observed" by the development of modern science fits these expectations of effectiveness you are presenting. Does the self-evidence of your principles and prophecies carry sufficient logical or metaphysical reliability to give you such a faith in their truth that this confidence can legitimately supersede for a rational mind, any concern for experimental check, any verification against any past or future research, such as a search for a counter example to your claims (some mathematical object that might be successful enough to make some experiments unnecessary) ?

    Actually, theoretical physics happened to be so successful that, well of course there is still some place for experiments, but this place is now quite reduced either to very complex (macroscopic) systems (where computations would be too complex for our supercomputers, so that the studied properties are only consequences of known laws in principle but not in practically computable ways), or to the case of extreme conditions that are very hard to explore (with particle accelerators, some subtle aspects of astronomy and cosmology to analyze the properties of dark matter... not mentioning the mind/brain interaction that I expect, as I explained in my essay, to involve subtle processes, linked to the nature of quantum measurement, beyond established mathematical physics, that have not yet been well investigated); in many other cases, such as gravitation, theory suffices. Fortunately indeed we do not need to send hundreds of probes in space all over again for each space exploration mission until finding out by chance which trajectory may actually lead to the desired destination.

    After this, in guise of illustration of your belief, you give examples from modern physics, so as to make it look as if your principles were not pure abstract principles disconnected from modern science, but compatible with it, or even supported by it. I am deeply amazed at what a badly distorted report you manage to make of how things go in modern physics, so as to make it look as if it supports your philosophy. This is so ridiculous, and just the same style of absurd distortions and misinterpretations of modern physics as what is usual from the part of cranks who claim to refute Special Relativity by criticizing Einstein's book and finding a "new explanation" for the Michelson-Morley experiment (or rather an old one, always the same : a "mechanically explained" Lorentz contraction of moving things and absolute slowdown of clocks with respect to an absolutely still ether), or who similarly "explain" quantum physics by classical waves, or who claim there must be a local realistic deterministic explanation of quantum randomness because they believe that any randomness must hide such a determination (assuming that physicists just did not try to look for one but lazily and dogmatically preferred to "shut up and calculate") and they did not learn about the logical and experimental arguments against it.

    You see "a large degree of arbitrariness" in mathematical physics. Of course there is some arbitrariness in the list of particles in the Standard Model and the values of all constants there as we know them (about 20), but this is nevertheless often qualified by many physicists as quite elegant as compared to the amount of observations this theory explains, far from "a large degree of arbitrariness" as you say. The Higgs boson, like many other particles (such as antiparticles), was predicted before being observed.

    You wrote "In most cases the equation describing the law could be complicated by the addition of extra terms, consistent with the symmetries and principles expressed, whose effects are merely too small to measure [by] given state of the art technology. These "correction terms" may be ignored because they don't measurably affect the predictions, but only complicate the analysis". Sorry I do not see well what kind of example you are thinking about here.

    On the contrary, I see in most cases that such "correction terms" you mention, such as "correcting" classical mechanics by Special Relativity and then General Relativity, indeed complicate the work of numerical computation of results with "additional terms" from the viewpoint of numerical analysis, however the corresponding theoretical picture is simplified instead. What they actually reflect is a more unified, simple and elegant theory. They are not arbitrarily added for complications, but they come as more or less theoretical necessities. Indeed I explained in my web site how, for example, Special Relativity is simpler as a theory than Galilean space-time. Consequently, Relativistic mechanics is also simpler than classical mechanics, as it comes from a simple principle (the least action principle, more elegantly applied to the space-time of Minkowski than it was to the Galilean space-time) and unifies all conserved quantities (mass, energy, momentum, angular momentum, center of mass) in a unique mathematical object (an antisymmetric tensor in the 5-dimensional vector space associated with the 4-dimensional affine space-time). General Relativity is very elegant too, should I develop this point ?

    "every one of the famous equations we use is merely the simplest of a bundle of possible forms of the laws". Please list 10 possible non-equivalent theories of speed and movement that behave approximately the same in many practical cases of experiments, and among which Galilean space-time and Special relativity are non-remarkable particular possibilities. If for any reason you do not like this example, please do a similar thing for other problems such as electromagnetism, gravitation, quantum physics or whatever. You say the only advantage of admitted versions is their simplicity just because it is convenient for us ? But how to explain that in so many cases of theories, among all possible alternatives, there happens to be one that is both extremely simpler than any alternative that can be thought of, and extremely well-verified by observation, with no need of correction by any alternative (no arbitrary complication that we may naturally think of for the sake of complication rather than for the sake of elegance, ever turns out to be better verified, as far as I know) ? Or do you claim this is not the case ?

    So I'm sorry but this is bullshit : "Often we assert that the right one is the simplest, evoking a necessarily mystical faith in "the simplicity of nature." The problem is that it never turns out to be the case that the simplest version of a law is the right one". First, we do not assert by faith that the right one is the simplest we think of. Instead, we conclude it as we verified it by observation. Second, when we had a seemingly simple equation which worked (such as Newton's law of gravitation), the new one that turns out to be more correct to replace it (General Relativity), turns out to be conceptually simpler (more elegant) than the first one; only it was not thought of at first because it is a more subtle, sublime kind of mathematics that requires some familiarity with high mathematics to be grasped. Finally thus, it remains true that the right one is the simplest, except only that we did not know at first the theory which turned out to be both simplest and better verified.

    You gave another example : "Maxwell's equations received corrections that describe light scattering from light-a quantum effect that could have been modelled-but never anticipated-by Maxwell". This example is supposed to illustrate your claim of possible complications and "under-determination" of laws among multiple possibilities. It doesn't. The truth is that these corrections by light scattering from light are not an option among alternative possibilities, but a logically necessary consequence of inserting electromagnetism in the framework of quantum field theory. Of course Maxwell could never anticipate it because quantum theory was not known at that time, but this impossibility to anticipate it before the birth of quantum physics is completely irrelevant here. It does not change the fact that this effect is a necessary consequence of quantum physics. This quantum physics had to be introduced for very different (and necessary) reasons than looking for corrections to electromagnetism. There is no logical possibility for this "correction" of electromagnetism to be not there with its exact necessary amplitude as soon as we live in a quantum world with all its other, more direct consequences (such as the stability of atoms). There is no trace of any "radical under-determinacy" here. To take a related example, consider the measure of the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron, where the calculation as logically determined from theory was verified by observation to an amazing degree of accuracy. We did not need to adjust anything in the theory to put it in agreement with this observation.

    Your essay is extremely interesting, as usual. I have read and appreciated it as I appreciated your books and papers. Your concept of time is enlightening. However, I would just like to note that it is not just a matter of Naturalists vs Platonists. There are also people thinking at mathematics as a language to speak about the Nature (Galilei, Bohr, ...).

    Best regards and good luck for the competition!

    LF

    I found your essay easy and enjoyable to read. Getting to the end I am a little puzzled because the conclusion seems to almost contradict the opening and abstract "My aim in this essay is to propose a conception of mathematics that is fully consonant with naturalism. By that I mean the hypothesis that everything that exists is part of the natural world, which makes up a unitary whole." Lee Smolin

    Some thoughts you may or may not wish to ponder:

    a, If all that exists is part of the unitary whole, not evoked, should we, in your opinion, then consider mathematical objects do not exist?

    b, You say they "do not exist before being evoked by human imagination" What about balls and paperclip magnetic pyramids and lines on paper. Aren't these as much mathematical objects as the ones imagined? Is it their vulnerability to change that excludes them? As you later say the properties of mathematical objects are independent of time.

    c, What came first the real substantial object which is idealized by imagination or the imagined object then identified with real objects? Perhaps that is a question for neurosciences.

    You give the mathematical objects the property of being independent of time, and having to be evoked by the mind so- don't they then exist in an imagined realm. Thus Not in contradiction with the Platonic view, according to which, mathematical truths are facts about mathematical objects which exist in a separate, timeless realm of reality, which exists apart from and in addition to physical reality.

    Or -and now it gets very interesting, in my opinion, will you put the minds full of imagined mathematical objects within the not evoked real universe and so have the evoked as an internal subset that is yet in some way apart from other subsets of the unevoked universe?

    Good luck and kind regards Georgina

    Dear Lee,

    In Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy, the Muses of Philosophy chase away the Muses of Poetry by calling them bad names ("theatrical whores", etc.). One way to read this is to emphasize the difference between lamentation (Poetry) and consolation (Philosophy). Another way is to note that the Muses of Poetry dictate (evoke) to the suffering Boethius truths that are only temporal and encourage him to come to terms with his present condition. The Muses of Philosophy, on the contrary, tell eternal, atemporal truths and promise to heal Boethius. If we are the unfortunate ones who suffer from inadequate physical theory, then shouldn't we place our best hope in consolation by the second kind of Muses? Isn't it a matter of greater hope that a better physical theory will be possible if we hear it in a dictation that is underwritten by the rational timeless argument?

    Best wishes,

    Alexei

    Dear Prof. Smolin,

    I totally agree with you and cited your works in my writing.

    Best regards,

    Leo KoGuan

    Dr. Smolin:

    Nice essay on a topic that I suspect will evolve immediately in people's minds.

    It would seem that evoking (or evolving) requires some level of (time-bound historical) continuity to the process. Even if someone were to present a consistent 25-dimensional theory today, it is unlikely that it would be accepted in the world (today) - simply because the connections between that theory and our current ones would not be traceable.

    The question of what has been evokes comes up, as does the question of the loss of such an idea if it is rejected today.

    Beyond that, what we might want to look deeper into is the evolving character of mathematics. If the greeks did not have an adequate conception of number for today's science, why do we think we have an adequate conception for tomorrow's science?

    While the answer might be 'we are locked into today's mathematics', I agree with your comment: "... that the goal of philosophical argument is not to arrive at a logically perfect position but to suggest novel hypotheses for science to examine and develop."

    Thank you, Donald

    Dear Lee,

    I very much enjoyed your essay and personally appreciated your naturalist stance. I try very hard not to judge the essays so much as to whether I agree with every point, but rather whether the author made a clear, cogent, and insightful case focused on the topic at hand. With that in mind, I believe that your essay played the role of an effective exorcism on the forces of mysticism in physics. I agree with Edwin Klingman above who wrote "I do not believe I have ever seen such a devastating analysis of the sheer uselessness of the Platonic idea of a mathematical realm outside of space and time."

    Thank you!

    I also appreciated the distinction you made between wonder and mysticism. I believe that a good number of scientists in foundations harbor a secret (or not so secret) love or appreciation of the apparent or perceived mysticism in physics. While many speak as if they believe in an underlying simplicity, there is often a gravitation toward more mystical ideas and sophisticated mathematics. To combat complexity and excise mysticism, in my essay I focused on the practical problem of additivity and the insights it provides into mathematics and physics. It is refreshing to have read your essay which takes a more philosophical approach.

    Hi Lee,

    I am in general agreement with about half of your essay. I entirely agree that we will never be able to completely eliminate experimentation. In fact, it should be at the core of everything we do. In that sense, mathematics is merely a description.

    That said, I am troubled by the broader claims you laid out about physical laws being "evoked" and "timeless." It seems to me that this would be particularly problematic for observational cosmology which is quite literally looking into the past to infer information. Are you seriously saying that cosmological laws don't exist until human beings "evoke" them? And why would human beings be particularly special, in that regard? Many animals species can do simple math. So it strikes me as being a tad solipsistic.

    In addition, the assumption that the concept of time is universal and somehow immutable seems to contradict the fact that it is entirely meaningless to certain systems (e.g. a single, free electron). It seems to me (as well as to some others) that time is an emergent phenomenon.

    Finally, a minor point: I would argue that logic is not a fourth, separate concept in mathematics. Rather I would argue that it is more fundamental than mathematics in general. All of mathematics is built on logic.

    Cheers,

    Ian