Time for a Change - The Instantaneous, Present and the Existence of Time by Peter Lynds

Thanks Paul. That's really nice of you. It's great to see you here. Great too that you've submitted an essay. I'll be sure to read it and leave a comment.

Best wishes

Peter

PS: Thanks once more Narenda.

In a discussion on Douglas Bundy's essay thread, I said that I would post some comments here about Einstein's possible view on instants and instantaneous magnitudes. Although he must have been aware of them, as far as I know, Einstein is not on record as having ever talked about Zeno's paradoxes, so we are unable to look there for clues. His theories of special and general relativity are heavily reliant on continuous functions, and he regularly talked meaningfully, in a physical sense, of instants and exact positions and magnitudes, not taking issue with them. Three such examples, two from his 1905 paper on special relativity, and one from an essay written on the occasion of his 70th birthday in 1949, are included below:

"...that is to say that their [synchronized clocks] indications correspond at any instant to the 'time of the stationary system' at the places where they happen to be."

"If the electron is at rest at a given epoch, the motion of the electron ensues in the next instant of time according to the equations..."

-- On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies, 1905

"A problem arises only when we ascribe group-characteristics to a theory, i.e., if we assume or postulate that the same physical situation admits of several ways of description, each of which is to be viewed as equally justified. For in this case we obviously cannot ascribe complete objective meaning (for example the x [position] -component of the velocity of a particle or its x-coordinates) to the individual (not eliminable) magnitudes."

-- Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, 1949

In relation to not taking exception with instants, however, there is a rather notable exception. Somewhat at odds with the quote referenced just above, in the very same essay, while arguing the statistical interpretation of quantum theory was incomplete, we find this:

"To this the quantum theorist will reply: This consideration stands and falls with the assertion that there actually is such a thing as a definite time of disintegration of the individual atom (an instant of time existing independently of any observation). But this assertion is, from my point of view, not merely arbitrary but actually meaningless. The assertion of the existence of a definite time-instant for the disintegration makes sense only if I can in principle determine this time-instant empirically...

One may not merely ask: "Does a definite time instant for the transformation of a single atom exist?" but rather: "Is it, within the framework of our theoretical total construction, reasonable to posit the existence of a definite point of time for the transformation of a single atom?" One may not even ask what this assertion means. One can only ask whether such a proposition, within the framework of the chosen conceptual system - with a view to its ability to grasp theoretically what is empirically given - is reasonable or not. Insofar, then, as a quantum-theoretician takes the position that the description by means of a Psi-function refers only to an ideal systematic totality but in no wise to the individual system, he may calmly assume a definite point of time for the transformation. But, if he represents the assumption that his description by way of the Psi-function is to be taken as the complete description of the individual system, then he must reject the postulation of a specific decay-time."

In other words, here Einstein rejected instants of time because they were not empirically verifiable. On this basis, he also rejected the idea that an atom could decay at a definite exact time. His other comments, and lack of further related ones, however, suggest that the ramifications of this conclusion perhaps had not quite hit completely home.

During the discusson on Douglas' thread, one related to the reality of interval, I also mentioned about another quote, and I think it could be a good idea to include it here too.

"Time is what a clock measures"

The above quote is usually attributed to Einstein. That Einstein would have said this puzzled me, particularly as a key feature of the dilation of time in relativity was Einstein's treatment of time as being nothing more than that what a clock showed. On locating Einstein's original quote, it came as no surprise then to find that what he actually said, "Zeit ist das, was man an der Uhr abliest," translates to "Time is what one reads off the clock." Although the difference seems tiny, as "measure" says that time exists, while "reads" neither affirms or denies its existence, the diiference is actually quite big. My essay (and essay notes) should make the possible relevance of this point more clear.

Best wishes

Peter

Dear Peter,

I found your essay well-written and interesting.

I do have some comments:

If I understand your thesis correctly, you argue that there are no such things as instants of time and points in space. From this you conclude, among other things, that there is no such thing as a velocity.

A velocity dx/dt by your argument is really 0/0, and if a point is the exact spatial analog of an instant, then our (by your argument incorrect) conceptions of time and space approach their respective zeros in the exact same way. But from this it would seem to follow that it is possible to define velocity: It becomes a constant.

Put slightly more formally, let f be a continuous function which models time. By your argument f is an incorrect representation of reality because there is no time (t=0).

Let g be a continuous function which models length. By your argument g is an incorrect representation of reality in exactly the same way that f is incorrect because there is no length (L=0).

Velocity becomes v=dg/df which describes the change in g with respect to f. But because the error in the numerator changes in exactly the same way as the error in the denominator, as g and f tend to zero, v tends to a constant. At the limit at which both actually are zero, which by your argument is the correct physical model of time and length, we can thereby still define v to be the constant that corresponds to the rate of the change of the error in modeling length with respect to the rate of change of the error in modeling time.

So it appears to me that your argument does not rule out the existence of velocities in reality.

If my argument is correct, then this creates a difficulty for your idea because then there should only exist infinite accelerations. In other, words, the existence of inertial charge i.e. mass falsifies your hypothesis.

To see this, let a=d(dg/df)/df. The numerator is even in reality definable as a constant, but the denominator is by your argument in reality exactly zero.

Thank you for raising some interesting questions, I enjoyed thinking about them.

Armin

Hello,

Immediately after submitting my post, I realized that I erred in the last step: I overlooked the "d" in front of the numerator, including which of course means that a=0/0.

Therefore, my conclusion that accelerations should be infinite by your argument is invalid.

However, it does raise another question, namely how it is, by your argument, possible that we can distinguish accelerations from velocities in an isolated environment in reality (We certainly cannot distinguish constant velocities from rest in an isolated environment.)

Again, thanks for provoking my thoughts.

Armin

Dear Armin,

Thanks for your kind words. It just rules out instantaneous velocity (and any other instantaneous magnitude). As always, we can still measure (more, correctly, represent) a velocity if a moving body is within some distance and time interval (as represented by a clock and meter). These intervals can naturally potentially be taken up to the limits of possible measurement.

I do not really understand your other point, as I do not see any reason why my conclusions would make a constant velocity and acceleration indistinguishable.

Best wishes

Peter

Hi Peter,

I think Armin's point can be understood in terms of Newton's thought experiment of the isolated water bucket. There is no way to define motion of the bucket (if the observer is on the bucket), by reference to outside objects, since it is isolated, but if it is rotated with water in it, the water in it will rise up the sides, showing an acceleration due to the constant change of direction.

I think Armin's question is, "Why is the change of motion detectable (i.e. acceleration), while motion itself is not?" The answer is that the change in motion that is detectable, in the case of rotation, is the change in its "directional" property, which is distinct from its magnitude property.

If the motion of the bucket were translational motion, a change in the magnitude property of the motion would also be detectable, by the water rising up the side opposite the direction of the applied acceleration.

However, the question of why only the change in these quantities, and not the quantities themselves, is detectable, goes to the heart of your essay: Only change really exists, because intervals of no change are impossible, and given that change must be measured in terms of some indivisible unit, to be quantifiable, a paradox is created that is at the heart of the crisis in fundamental physics.

Thus, the question arises, "While an instant of change is impossible to define, is it possible to define an instant of change in the magnitude, or direction, of change?

Dear Doug,

"...Only change really exists, because intervals of no change are impossible, and given that change must be measured in terms of some indivisible unit, to be quantifiable, a paradox is created that is at the heart of the crisis in fundamental physics."

Well put. The thing is, as clocks and meters are just as useful as they have always been (a theoretical paper isn't going to change that!), it needn't actually be a problem. It just requires one to realise that instants, instantaneous magnitudes etc, are non-physical, and based on this, to not let oneself fall into faulty assumption or paradox. A problem also obviously arises when these faulty assumptions are not recognized and are used as building blocks in the construction of other theories, e.g. the idea of time and space being quantized, Chronons, any theory that assumes or posits the existence of time, space-time etc.

"Thus, the question arises, "While an instant of change is impossible to define, is it possible to define an instant of change in the magnitude, or direction, of change?"

No, I don't think so. Again, though, as long as one is careful not to fall into faulty assumption, there needn't be a problem. With the majority of people not being aware of these things, however (including some who do not think that time exists), there is a problem.

Best wishes

Peter

PS: I just realised that I should have probably mentioned about a paper I wrote in 2003 about time, the present, and consciousness. Although I'm not very proud of the way it is written, and I unfortunately haven't had a chance to publish anything further on it yet, I still very much believe in the conclusions it reaches. Namely, that conscious awareness and our seemingly innate conception of a preset moment or a now, are actually two sides of the same coin, and that figuring out how the brain creates this conception (of a present moment), also holds the key to understanding how conscious awareness is possible. This is the paper

Hi Peter,

You did not consider your essay valuable. It will perhaps not hurt anybody. I largely agree with your point of view, and I am trying to reveal some rather unbelievable consequences that can be derived for mathematics as well as for physics. To what extent can you support me?

Regards,

Eckard

yes, universe is atemporal, time is an observer effectAttachment #1: The_Concept_of_Atemporality_into_The_Theory_of_Relativity__amrit_2008.pdf

Dear Eckard,

I take it that you are referring to my comment that, in relation to physics, I consider the work's value to be limited. I think this is true, and explain why in the essay, but as the work has direct relevance to a number of very fundamental questions and problems in physics (the question of whether or not time and space are quantized, the question of the existence of time, space, and space-time, the problem of how, despite a number of theoretical roadblocks, change is possible, etc), I do consider it valuable. In relation to the non-existence of instants and instantaneous magnitudes, I also think that it could potentially play a part in the solution of some outstanding puzzles in quantum mechanics and quantum gravity. While I'm being a little bit bold, I should also probably note that the argument contained in the essay doesn't represent another solution to Zeno's paradoxes. As it is the assumption of instantaneous relative position that causes the paradoxes to result, it is the solution.

Dear Armit,

Thanks. I enjoyed your essay. I naturally agree with it too. Best of luck.

Best wishes

Peter

Dear Peter

We are living into ATEMPORAL UNIVERSE, into ethernal NOW.

How to bring that into science is a big work.

I see that we are close to the success.

In a few years time will accepted by the main stream as a scientific tool to describe irreversible stream of material change that run into atemporal space in a linear way past-presdent-future.

This will be a great jump into human consciousness from "I" to the consciousness itself that is a basic frequency of guanta of space that build up atemporal space.

yours amrit

Dear Armit,

Thanks. I should note that I do not think that "atemporal space" or an "Eternal now" exist either.

Best wishes

Peter

Hello Peter,

I enjoyed your essay--more than once! Thanks!

It seems you are searching for something--for a "deeper" mechanism--a more fundamental *physical* invariant powering time and all its arrows and assymetries.

Well, Moving Dimensions Theory provides such a mechanism! The fourth dimension is expanidng at the rate of c, or dx4/dt=ic.

In the attached paper, you will see that as the fourth dimension expands at the rate of c, as a probabilistic wavefornt of nonlocality that has a wavelength of Planck's length; an underlying mechanism is presented for time and all its arrows and assymetries. Also accounted for with MDT's fourth moving/exapnding dimension are entropy, all the dualities--time/space, matter/energy, wave/partice--and Heisenberg's and Huygens' principles.

Our whole lives they have been telling us that spacetime is a sea of quantum foam--that the so-called vacuum is buzzing with activity. Well, what is more natural then, to provide this activity, than a fourth dimension that is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensons, exhibiting wavelike properties. So it is that instead of using vibrating strings, why not use vibrating spacetime? It makes far more sense, and it unifies far more arenas of physics, than current approaches.

You would enjoy my paper, as it provides the mechanism you are seeking!

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/238

"Time as an Emergent Phenomenon: Traveling Back to the Heroic Age of Physics by Elliot McGucken."

You write, "The realization that there was no such thing as an instant in time, and that an object in relative motion did not have a determined relative position, had some further implications."

Please see the attached paper. As time is an emergent phenomenon that arises because the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions (as the fourth expanding dimension carries the photons that power our watches/clocks), and because the expansion of the fourth dimension is wavelike, there is a degree of uncertainty in all measurements of space and time, as the fundamental character of the fourth expanding dimension is wavelike.

You write, "Perhaps the most obvious one related to the nature of time itself. If there was no such thing as an instant in time, I also realized that there could be no "flow" or passage of time, for without a continuous progression through indivisible instants over an extended duration, there could be no physical progression or flow."

MDT: dx4/dt = ic. x4 is the fourth dimension. t is the time measured on your watch or clock. i is the imaginary number. c is the velocity of light. For the first time in the history of relativity, *change* has benn woven into the fundamental fabric of spacetime.

You write, "In other words, there was nothing there, no temporal stepping-stone, for which time could possibly use to progress. Kind of similar to how an invisible ether was once assumed to permeate throughout the entire universe, Newton's invisible river of time, assumed by many to enable motion and change as it proceeded, could not exist either. It had no water. Although we certainly feel as though we are swimming along with it, we are actually high and dry. Further, the same could be said for the existence of space, due to the lack of spatial points."

Please see the attached paper. MDT waves change, wavelike behavior, Planck's length, and the velocity of light into the fundamental fabric of spacetime, at long last providing a mechanism for time and all its arrows and assymetries acorss all realms.

"In his 1912 Manuscript on Relativity, Einstein never stated that time is the fourth dimension, but rather he wrote x4 = ict. The fourth dimension is not time, but ict. Despite this, prominent physicists have oft equated time and the fourth dimension, leading to un-resolvable paradoxes and confusion regarding time's physical nature, as physicists mistakenly projected properties of the three spatial dimensions onto a time dimension, resulting in curious concepts including frozen time and block universes in which the past and future are omni-present, thusly denying free will, while implying the possibility of time travel into the past, which visitors from the future have yet to verify. Beginning with the postulate that time is an emergent phenomenon resulting from a fourth dimension expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the rate of c, diverse phenomena from relativity, quantum mechanics, and statistical mechanics are accounted for. Time dilation, the equivalence of mass and energy, nonlocality, wave-particle duality, and entropy are shown to arise from a common, deeper physical reality expressed with dx4/dt=ic. This postulate and equation, from which Einstein's relativity is derived, presents a fundamental model accounting for the emergence of time, the constant velocity of light, the fact that the maximum velocity is c, and the fact that c is independent of the velocity of the source, as photons are but matter surfing a fourth expanding dimension. In general relativity, Einstein showed that the dimensions themselves could bend, curve, and move. The present theory extends this principle, postulating that the fourth dimension is moving independently of the three spatial dimensions, distributing locality and fathering time. This physical model underlies and accounts for time in quantum mechanics, relativity, and statistical mechanics, as well as entropy, the universe's expansion, and time's arrows."

I hope MDT aids in your further contemplations of spacetime!

Best,

Dr. E (The Real McCoy)Attachment #1: 14_MOVING_DIMENSIONS_THEORY_EXAMINES_THE_GRAVITATIONAL_REDSHIFT_SLOWING_OF_CLOCKS.pdf

Dear Peter,

Thank you very much for your reply. I largely agree wholeheartedly. I only object you might not be too bold but perhaps rather not consequent enough. Maybe you did not yet carefully read my essay, most likely you did not read what I wrote when commenting on Christinel Stoica concerning the notion real vs. what I coined irreal number. Irreal numbers include the irrational but not the imaginary ones and are uncountable, i.e., they do not exist.

Irreal numbers belong to instantaneous values. Every mathematician declares me wrong if I argue |sign(x)|= 1 does not require an exception for x=0 if the x are the continuous irreal numbers. However, no mathematician so far had a convincing answer how to deal with the zero between IR and IR- if one splits IR. It does not exist if considered an irreal number.

Don't you agree that Zeno's paradox is closely related to Buridan's donkey, and the latter is almost identical with Schroedinger's cat and Wigner's friend?

While our founded criticism has little or no chance yet to overcome funded speculations, I agree with someone who argued: Physics needs serious criticism rather than endless futile speculations.

Those who did not yet take the opportunity to choose three votes are kindly requested to draw attention to essays like that of you, of Dr. E, and of mine. Maybe you can suggest better votes?

I feel, Prof. Ellis, Le Rouge, and several others also reject pure speculations like the block universe.

Those who perform funded research will perhaps not hesitate voting for Carlo Rovelli, Christinel Stoica or the like.

Regards,

Eckard Blumschein

eckard.blumschein@arcor.de

Dear Dr. E,

Thanks.

"It seems you are searching for something--for a "deeper" mechanism--a more fundamental *physical* invariant powering time and all its arrows and asymmetries.

I'm simply after motion (and I have that). Thanks for mentioning your essay.

Dear Eckard,

Thanks. I haven't read your essay yet, but I will. Thanks for mentioning it.

In relation to the block universe, as it is an outflow of the lack of absolute simultaneity in Nature, I think it is the correct view. As I just explained on George Ellis' and Cristie Stocia's essay threads (and mentioned in my essay), however, I think it is just in the interpretation where the problem is.

"While our founded criticism has little or no chance yet to overcome funded speculations..."

I disagree. Although I may be a bit naive, and I must admit that I sometimes find pursuing my work frustrating (more so in the past before I properly learnt that some things are really just to be expected as being par for the course), I wouldn't bother pursing my work if I didn't feel that I was in the hunt with it.

There a large number of essays that I think deserve votes. Carlo's is certainly one of them.

Best wishes

Peter

Dear Peter,

I look forward getting your detailed comments on at least my essay. Having learned a lot from the current discussion, I do not expect any physicist voting for my accusation that the obvious mess in physics most likely simply relates to improper interpretation of complex calculus.

I agree that the philosophical point of view is crucial. My university is named after Otto von Guericke who was one of the first who gave priority to experiment rather than to Platon's attitude in physics. Later more.

Kind regards,

Eckard

Thank you for this essay. I agree that the present can't exist, as its duration can not be determined. However, does this really prove that time can not flow from the past to the future (sidestepping the present)? For example, the duration of the past can be known. If the duration of the future can be known, both can be said to exist. The recent future affects ITS past (the so-called present). An example of this is how a musical note changes the sound and feeling of the note that preceded it. So, what about a flow from past to future without the construct we call the present?

Thank you,

Sandy

Thanks Peter,

You write, "I'm simply after motion (and I have that)."

How do you weave change and motion into the fundamental fabric of spacetime? I'm not sure I caught that in your paper.

Moving Dimensions Theory weaves change into the fundamental fabric of spacetime by noting that dx4/dt=ic--the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions at the rate of c. For the first time in the history of relativity, change has been woven into the fundamental fabric of spacetime with a new universal invariant: dx4/dt=ic.

And, the great thing about MDT is that in addition to providing a mechanism for motion, it also provides a physical model for entropy, time and all its arrows and assymetries across all realms, quantum nonlocality and entanglement, Huygens' and Heisenberg's principles; and all of relativity can be derived from MDT.

Assume a 4D universe x1, x2, x3, x4 where the foruth dimension is expanding at c: dx4/dt=ic. Ergo relativity and E=mc^2. Ergo quantum nonlocality and entanglement. Ergo time and all its arrows and assymetries. Ergo entropy and Huygens' and Heisenberg's principles. Ergo the constancy of c and all motion.

But how do you acocunt for motion in a *physical* manner?

All the best!

Dr. E (The Real McCoy)

Dear Eckard,

Although I haven't read your paper yet, if it stands up, I hope you're wrong about that.

Dear Sandy,

Thanks. I don't think so, as without its building blocks (instants) being there, there is no sense in which time (whether a flow, interval, past, present and future), could be said to exist. Without the water, there can be no river. With relativity, Einstein also showed us that the differentiation between the past, present and future is just an illusion; all times (those shown by a clock) share equal footing. In relation to cosmology, I think it can also be argued that what we normally term as being the future can equally be termed the past, and vice versa. If correct, this would again mean that the past and future do not exist. Finally, in relation to your comment, "the duration of the past can be known. If the duration of the future can be known, both can be said to exist," duration or interval do not exist either, while, without the present/an instant, there could be no transition point/time from past to future.

I think it is interesting to ask, if the future and past did exist, how would they exist? To exist, they would presumably have to be something physical. I think the ridiculousness of their actually existing then becomes more apparent.

Dear Dr. E,

In relation to block time vs. motion, and as I explained in my essay, as long as one recognizes that instants, instantaneous magnitudes, space-time points etc, do not exist, motion and change become possible and can be seen to be completely compatible with general relativity and the block view, with all times (those shown by a clock) sharing equal footing. That is, the problem of block time not allowing for motion and change is precisely due to the assumption that instants, space-time points etc, exist.

Best wishes

Peter