Dear Louis and Rukhsan,

Thanks for a great entry - I think I understand the core of what you are saying but I'm not sure you are doing anything more fundamental than "modeling reality".

For instance, you begin with the tenant that "the world is constructed in such a way that we can see itself". However, later in the essay you make a point about clarity of language - working out "what every word in that question means" (page 5) and the word "understood" (page 6). It seems to me these are at odds with each other - if the world can be constructed to understand itself from basic logical system (such as the Calculus of Indications), why do you even have to mention the understanding of these words? Shouldn't our own understanding of them be universal?

As for the Calculus of Indications, you imply that it's just an extension of the Boolean algebra, but isn't it actually a *drastic* modification (even destruction) of this? By making the operator also a state (first equation on page 8) you are really constructing a fundamentally different version of reality. It would appear you shift from an axiom-based reality to a reality where the differentiation between axioms and theorems is meaningless. But isn't that just another hypothesis for a model of reality?

To summarize my point of view, I think you are modeling a reality using "the mark" as "a bit", but isn't it still just a model? We can have the same universal understanding of particles constructed in this way as if we modeled electrons using a quantum field with specific properties. So I'm not sure you're doing anything different than "modeling reality".

Anyway, it was a great, thought-provoking read. I wish you both luck in the contest!

Chris Duston

    Dear Chris,

    Of course I am modeling. I do not regard this as an epistemological error. In fact I regard the unrestricted identification of physical reality with mathematics as a serious epistemological error.

    This does not mean that there are no places where the mathematics and the physical are indistinguishable. When they are indistinguishable, it means that there is an awareness present gluing them together and not distinct from either. I say this because, for me, mathematics is fundamentally conceptual, concept requires awareness/thought, and yet that thought almost universally needs to be grounded in a physical experience. There is another speculation that is very fascinating: that elementary physical entities are purely mathematical. One may find oneself thinking that perhaps the form and the content of an electron are identical. Take care and look at what you really mean. Maybe this is so and maybe you are just living in the model!

    You say "I'm not sure you are doing anything more fundamental than "modeling reality"." If you allow that the model could be something like Escher's Print Gallery

    http://www.planetperplex.com/en/item/print-gallery/

    then I would agree with you.I suggest that a right way to look at the world is to understand that what observes the world is the world. Any attempt to articulate this idea is likely to be incomplete.

    Just because one says that the world is observing herself, does not give one license to relax and stop working out whether one's meanings and sayings are well-formed. In fact it makes the articulation much more difficult since one wants to know whether one is finding out what is dependent on the point of view (the way the world is divided into viewer and viewed) or perhaps independent of that. But in in physical science we use all sorts of different viewpoints and we want them to cohere. Bohr and Heisenberg showed us that what were thought to be objective properties of 'physical things' were often the results of the type of splitting (the type of observation) chosen. I wish my understanding were universal. But what universality it has seems to come from hard work!

    Ah! Now! Calculus of Indications. I do not say (or did not intend to say) that it is an extension of Boolean Arithmetic. It is a RADICAL COLLAPSE of Boolean Arithmetic.In Boolean Arithmetic there is a firm separation of the operator of negation, ~, and the possible values, T and F. In the Calculus of Indications the marked value { } and the operator (of negation if you will) are IDENTICAL. There is no distinction between the operator and the operand. Processes are Things and Things are Processes (there is only one Thing/Process at this early stage). The remarkable point about the formalism is that even though it is so collapsed, it is still possible to maintain sufficient distinction to capture the patterns of boolean mathematics and unfold them. It is possible to go from the collapsed state to un uncollapsed state by regarding the mark as an operator as in { { } } = (unmarked) and as a value. In fact the most profound equation of the Calculus of Indications is: { } = { }. On the left hand side the mark is seen to operate on the unmarked state. On the right hand side we just have the marked state. They are identical and they are distinct! Just so in observing 'physical reality', we bring forth 'its' properties.

    You suggest that I move toward a system without axioms. Maybe. I like the assumptions to be as simple as possible. But you have to ask, if you think that we are getting toward physical modeling, whether starting with very simple structures of distinction will naturally lead to the complexities of physics. Can you tell a good story for this? Stories people tell usually use some accepted complexities. For example, we may take on qubits, and then we have taken on the basics of quantum theory from the beginning. There is a long story from a bit or a mark to a qubit. I think that looking at the mark with its structure of interaction (like a Majorana particle) is a good step to take before letting it become a qubit Qubit means superposition of possibilities and the apparatus of the complex numbers. I want to slow this down and look carefully at the Metaphor of the Imaginary. When you do this you find that the square root of minus one is a clock! But this is too much for one reply.

    Lets end in the question of what is possible in 'modeling reality'. We are deeply involved in the models we make of 'reality'. The reality we come to observe and experience is a function of our models and these models (constructions of language and mathematics) are functions of the reality.

    It is circular. In physics we demand repeatability and independence of particular points of view.

    The insures that this recursive game of producing and knowing will appear as objective as it can. It also insures that there will be surprises. We shall not know it all at once or even in the course of time.

    23 days later

    Dear Louis,

    I think Newton was wrong about abstract gravity; Einstein was wrong about abstract space/time, and Hawking was wrong about the explosive capability of NOTHING.

    All I ask is that you give my essay WHY THE REAL UNIVERSE IS NOT MATHEMATICAL a fair reading and that you allow me to answer any objections you may leave in my comment box about it.

    Joe Fisher

      Dear Joe Fisher,

      I will certainly read and respond to your essay! I think however that your post is not quite appropriate, since one is supposed to comment on the essay that we wrote in this space. However, first without referring to your essay, I want to examine from our point of view what it would mean to say that the real universe is not mathematical. From my point of view all linguistic constructions accompanied by concepts are mathematical. David Finkelstein once said "Mathematics is a form of literary endeavor

      with a very special type of criticism.". When one goes to the basis of mathematics and finds that it is about the properties of distinctions then we see that mathematics always involves awareness/mind/concept. It is not bare formalism or mechanical calculation. Given that stance, it is clear that I cannot say that a world without concepts is a mathematical world. If I believed in a purely material world in this sense, then I would have to say that 'it' knows no mathematics except through the observers of that world and while the universe may apparently follow mathematical rules, that is our description of it and not it itself. But if you take the point of view that there is in the Reality an intertwining of concept/awareness and materiality, then the universe herself could be a great mathematican. Even in this view, the mathematics has to to do with the dialogue of the Universe with herself.

      Now I will go read your essay and make comments on it on your site!

      Best

      Lou K.

      6 days later

      Dear Louis,

      Your enthusiasm and passion for the subject matter is really shining through in this dialogue. I had thought of the division of mathematics into the conceptual and the calculational as an artifact of how we humans conceptualize what mathematics is about, not as something that is intrinsic to the subject, and the main reason for that was that it seems difficult, if not impossible, to draw exact boundaries between the two. Your dialogue exposed me to an alternative viewpoint that I'll still have to think some more about.

      To give some critical feedback, I would have appreciated a little more in the way of explanation of the Calculus of indications. In particular, I found myself wondering whether the difference in the thickness of the lines of the sideways L in different equations signified anything, and also wondered about the meaning of the dot in some of the equations, since negation had only been defined in terms of the combination of the L and the dot.

      As a topologist, you are very close to the foundations of mathematics and therefore might possibly be interested in finding out a little about my current effort to extend the foundations in order to increase the expressive power of mathematics, some of which is outlined in my entry. My background is actually in physics but I found that certain ideas and concepts I entertain pertaining to quantum mechanics do not seem to be formally expressible using the language of contemporary mathematics. I would certainly appreciate any critical feedback from an expert mathematician. Who knows, perhaps you might even find this to be an exciting venture into uncharted corners of the holocosm.

      Best wishes,

      Armin

      Hi Lou and Rukhsan--

      I loved your essay. Well written and so handles a complex topic well. As a general rule, I don't like dialogues (after all the poor knock-offs written in response to D. Hofstadter's GEB), but you guys managed to pull it off. More importantly, you offered the kind of "outside the box" approach that I think this contest intended to inspire. Your essay was very, very thought-provoking. While I don't agree with everything you wrote, you certainly got my attention.

      Quick question: Could you describe a bit more what you mean by the term "holocosm"? Is this the realm of pure logic or a Boolean realm? What is its ontological status, in your view?

      I am a bit puzzled by the relatively low rating of your essay by the community. I shall add my vote and seek to rectify.

      Best regards,

      Bill.

        9 days later

        Dear Bill,

        Thank you for the kind comments. Holocosm is our term for that eternal timeless world,highly creative, that mathematicians imagine as existent. Concepts and ideas are real and living in the holocosm. This can only be metaphorical in relation to common notions of existence and we see the contrast when we examine how we talk about mathematical constructs. Many people imagine that infinity could be real, for example that there could actually be infinitely many parallel universes either in a classical or in a quantum sense. But if you examine how we use the term infinity, you realize that particularly mathematicians do not assume an existence in this sense. They speak as though the real numbers or Hilbert spaces exist, but all that is required is consistency, logical consistency. Even the simple infinity of the natural numbers N = {1,2,3,...} is only a matter of consistency. We do not have access to any but a few of them directly, but we do have access to the concept of adding one and we have access to the concept of expressing numbers (such as 2^{2^{...2^{2}}} with 100 2's in that expression). We structure all this and work with it from a conceptual domain that is very real and supported by physicality, but distinct from physicality.

        I call this domain the Holocosm. It is where mathematics is structured and it is where we discover elements of mathematics that seem to correspond to physicality. It is where we find concepts that are useful in the world. There is no multiplicity in the Holocosm, so one might say that it is boolean. Actually, I believe that Spencer-Brown came to a closer understanding of the Holocosm when he realized that negation (action, crossing) and value (such as 0 and 1) are aspects of the same structure of distinction and indication, deeper than the boolean. The moral of this for physics is that one can look at the relationship of the holocosm with our perceptual world and begin to understand the nature of the dialogue that we are creating about the boundary between the conceptual and the physical in a new way. One can begin to see how it is that mathematics and natural science are both exploring the same creation.

        Best,

        Lou K

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