Essay Abstract

Mathematics for the most part deals with quantities. In some, relatively speaking, more recent kinds of math, particular properties are ascribed to certain terms that comprise it. It is fully analogous to what physics does. We posit the existence of certain (for lack of a more apt noun) qualities, and then use math to express a quantitative relation to something else. Just look at any equation that is used by physicists. It states that whatever is on its left side is equal to an amount of another quality on its right side. No, it is not, despite what Randall claims, that ultimately everything is reducible to a number. The number 2 can equally apply to a particle's spin, but also to 2 degrees Kelvin, and to the two people in front of you at the checkout counter. The number 2 does not mean anything by itself. It needs context at minimum, and more ordinarily needs to be defined in terms of what it refers to.

Author Bio

I was raised to be the ultimate social sciences person. Science and business were foreign to me. Nevertheless, I eventually chose to be a business person, and became a VP Finance of an international company. I never lost sight of philosophy (my first and lasting interest), and was a member of MENSA and ISPE (International Society for Philosophical Enquiry) for many years. Currently, I write technical material for private industry, as it seems that understanding of engineering matters is not often paired with the ability to write about it. I hold several university degrees and professional certifications (not that it pertains).

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Dear En,

I agree that: it has to be "two of something", this is one main connection for the "maths of physics". Thanks for reminding it to us.

All the best,

Michel

    Dear Michel,

    Thank you for your comment, and for taking time to read my essay. I did read your essay so I could better understand the intent in your comment (above). Over the next couple of days I will make a comment about your essay, once I have given it more thought.

    En

    Dear En,

    Take your time. Before writing my comment I was wandering through nature that is quite beautiful around and I was precisely asking myself what is the problem with these numbers, I mean 10^53, 10^-34 and other numbers, that one gets from the Monster Group. What you say is in perfect agreement with my conclusion, what matters is just to put units on numbers, otherwise they just mean nothing. This is quite simple but the axiomatization of our physical theories leads us to hide this evidence that any engineer perfectly knows and applies.

    Cheers,

    Michel

    Dear En,

    You are entirely right. Very often in my work, I observed the relationship. But I never found it fully satisfactory.

    An example is the investigation of the so-called 1/f noise in highly stable oscillators, you can find a copy of the work here "1/f noise, the measurement of time and number theory"

    http://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin//zeta/NTandtime.htm

    Here you see/measure the approximation of real numbers by their continued fraction expansions. This is a classical example of the feedback of the measurement on the object.

    The quantum measurements are even more impressive with the concept of contextuality which essentially means that the object is entirely shaped by all commutative/compatible observables.

    It is often sayed that mathematics is tautologic that for me means that if there is a rich enough mathematical object, let's say the Monster Group, or Mandelbrot's set or another one, then its structure should fit the knowledge we have of the physical constants. We are far from this goal although many are trying to guess. But there are many other interesting problems: the hidden mass, the emergence of life and DNA, and so on. It was simpler for me to use Hawking's quote.

    But you are right, that "something is not a number".

    Best wishes,

    Michel

    En,

    Is "En Passant" a pseudonym? I always assumed that anyone who might be a "big name" and who wanted to participate in a contest such as this would use a pseudonym ...

    In any event, what you have written is short, direct, to the point, and true. It is essential to distinguish between the different types of "stuff" that are operated upon by mathematics. I am an engineer by education and I always check myself by making sure that my units are correct and consistent. I have caught more than a few errors by using this freshman level skill.

    Best Regards and Good Luck,

    Gary Simpson

      Gary,

      The pseudonym has a more banal purpose than you envision. It has to do with my work (separation of personal and corporate/commercial messaging).

      Thank you for your comment. I was happy to see your pragmatic assessment of the ideas in my essay.

      I look forward to your writing about other topics.

      En

      Dear En Passant,

      Thanks for your well thought out comments and questions on my essay. As both Michel and Gary observe above, I believe you shine a light on the sterile concept of 'number' in math versus the mathematical relations between "things" in physics. You say:

      "The correct selection of somethings and the appropriate selection of the numerical relations among somethings is "physics".

      For example, Stern-Gerlach measures the scattering of particles depending upon the initial spin, i.e., the spin upon entry to the device. But Bell believes it is measuring "something else". Specifically, he believes that Stern-Gerlach directly measures "spin", which typically exits the device either aligned or anti-aligned with the local field. He therefore attaches an idealized 'number', ±1, to the output state. There's nothing wrong with this approach if one wishes only to describe the state of the existing spin, post-measurement. But Bell desires to use this idealized output prove a major point about Nature; that Nature is non-local.

      This is unfortunate, because the approach he takes is to multiply the output of two correlated spins together to see if their average or expectation value agrees with that predicted by quantum mechanics. It does not! But I have shown that if he used the actual measurement of scattering, the deflection position, instead of his ideal measurement of 'spin' state, he actually would have found the correct correlation, in which case he would not have reached the conclusion that Nature is non-local.

      Thus as you say, one must select the right "somethings" before establishing the relationships and drawing conclusions.

      You further state:

      "Math without consideration of whether it mirrors the outside world is always tautologic... Once it starts to speak about the world, it becomes physics. At this stage, it can be validated (or not) by experiment, which is the final arbiter of whether your physics is right."

      Bell's physics of course is not validated by experiment. His physical model fails to produce the quantum mechanical predictions which are found to agree with experiment.

      Forgive me for, in essence, advertising my theory on your thread, but the point is that you clearly and cleanly point out the significant difference in math and physics, and that is more than a meaningless distinction.

      Thanks again for your essay and for your kind attention to mine.

      Best regards,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      5 days later

      Dear En

      I just posted on my own forum a reply to your comment. I have read a first time your essay which is interesting because of its atypical aspects doubtlessly in connection with your pseudonym since it should be one, isn't it? However, precisely because of the atypical aspect of your essay, I have to read it again and to think about how to respond. But it would be done soon.

      Best regards

      Peter

      7 days later

      Dear En,

      I just posted a long but neverless partial answer to your questions.

      Kind regards

      Peter

      5 days later

      Dear "En passant",

      I think you perfectly answer Wigner's question when you say:

      "There is no mystery. Whenever you find a consistent (repeatable) observation, it automatically means that you can use math to make utilitarian sense of it."

      There's not much more to say... as long as we interpret this year's FQXi question as the relationship between known (or potentially known) mathematics and the observable (or potentially observable) universe. Of course, there's always the "deeper" question (perhaps too deep for science, and destined to remain in the realm of philosophy): what is the relationship between "all of mathematics" (in the limit that would be accessible to an infinitely intelligent mathematician) and the totality of all that physically exists?

      Thank you for a refreshingly short and lucid essay!

      Marc

        Dear Marc,

        I was not sure whether or not to view with suspicion any comments dated April 1st.

        Nevertheless, thank you first of all for reading my essay, and for treating it kindly. I took a brief look at your own essay so I could better understand your comment (I will read your essay in great detail and respond on your page with my comment this week).

        Consequently, the following lines are very preliminary and should only be taken as an indication of "first thoughts."

        It appears that there is a difference between what you understand by "mathematics" and what I think it is. But we may at least gain a mutual understanding of each other's position if we compare our respective general understanding of what exists and how we know things (I didn't want to use "them" big words here).

        Of course, the issue you describe in the 2nd half of your third paragraph will be understood more clearly once we have done what I have just said.

        I am also posting this comment on your essay page so as to acknowledge your comment on mine.

        En

        4 days later

        Dear "En Passant",

        Thank you for the detailed comments you left on my essay's page on April 3. They are much appreciated!

        Indeed, we all start with basic assumptions. Mine is that there is a "monist" way to understand the world, a fundamental level of reality that can account for all that exists and is self-existing and self-explanatory --- which I identify with "All of Mathematics", an infinite structure that globally does not contain any information (like the Library of Babel of Borges' short story). On the other hand, you start with the assumption that only those things that we can detect with our senses or with an enhancement of our senses should be said to exist. Then, as I said in my first message, your conclusions are very well argued and follow naturally. I really like the way you put it in the post you left on my page, with the example of the pocket calculator. When I put on my "pragmatic physicist" hat (to borrow the expression from Sophia Magnusdottir's essay), I completely agree with you!

        I hope your essay finds the audience it deserves and does well in the contest. All the best!

        Marc

        P.S. I have posted this reply on my essay's page also.

        Hi En,

        I agree with your observation that "Whenever you find a consistent (repeatable) observation, it automatically means that you can use math to make utilitarian sense of it," but I don't think the conversation should end there, and I do believe there is still a mystery... or at least, a lack of consensus from physicists.

        Do you think we can come up with a theory using mathematics that can also sheds light on the things that we observe that aren't systematic and repeatable? And are we talking about repeatable from a classical sense or a probabilistic sense? Should repeating something in a statistical sense even count as repeating something? How do you think areas of mathematics that relate to complexity theory relate to physics? Can we model a universe that has an infinite amount of information? How do you account for the fact that there are aspects of the natural world that physics has made good progress in explaining, while there are still many other areas that seem intractable?

        Please check out my Digital Physics movie essay if you get the chance. There are some questions posed at the end of the essay that may interest you. Here's one that seems relevant to this conversation:

        Is one alien's signal another man's noise?

        Thanks,

        Jon

          Dear En,

          I saw your post at Ken Wharton and would like to answer your questions, but because they had nothing to do with his essay I will post the answers here.

          "I wonder whether you would be willing to pose your question in an FQXi blog accessible to a larger audience"

          Thank you for considering this issue sufficiently important to suggest this, but I am not sure the audience that I would potentially reach in this format is the audience I want to reach. For better or for worse, I have the impression that most of the people who frequent them are not professional physicists, but it is they who have to consider this argument. At any rate, I am working on this problem both from the relativity and from the quantum theory side, and the puzzle is by no means yet complete. Perhaps when I have more pieces together people will start paying attention.

          "You are right, any inconsistencies in accepted theories must be investigated (if uncovered by qualified people)."

          Well, just to be clear, I am not claiming that this issue is an inconsistency but that it is an apparent wrong prediction of the theory: A reasonable interpretation of the extrapolation of the theory to objects characterized by v=c should have led us to predict that there are no such objects, but in fact there are.

          The claim that it is only "apparently" wrong, however, is based on my own ideas on how to resolve the problem, and definitely non-standard. But I don't want to force my own ideas on anyone: Anyone who wishes to do so, can try to resolve it on their own, but before this happens people first have to see that there is a problem. The bottom line, however, is that I do not take this to be grounds for rejecting special relativity. It is important for me to emphasize this because the argument could be co-opted by those who deny relativity, and I do not wish to be lumped together with the anti-relativity crowd.

          "...such inconsistencies need to be looked at again regularly and not just "papered over."

          Well, correcting again for the fact that this is not an inconsistency but an apparently wrong prediction, you saw Ken's response, which is a typical denialist one, as seen by the following:

          a) He said "1) I think in terms of fields, not particles, *especially* when it comes to light,..." implying that my argument applies only to particles, not fields. Well, go back and check, I did not use the word "particle" even once, the argument is general enough to encompass both particles and fields, so that implication is false.

          b) Even though I expressly said that my aim was only to convince him that there was a problem, and not to convince him of my ideas, he said nothing about whether he thought there was a problem or not (i.e. ignoring in his response the central issue I was talking about) but only "I'm the last person to tell anyone that a crazy idea isn't worth exploring, if you think that a promising topic has been unfairly neglected..."

          So yes, this is disappointing but not unexpected. I think to a great extent this is because the problem is being pointed out by an unknown person. If it had been, say, Hawking or Witten, who pointed this out, then people would pay attention, as evidenced by the fact that theoretical physicists are willing to seriously consider ideas like 6 extra dimensions and/or a multiverse, even though there is absolutely zero evidence either in nature or in our established theories which implies this. The problem I am pointing out, on the other hand, is straightforwardly implied by what many physicists consider one of our best established theories of science.

          "Just for my own curiosity, what is the evidence that such objects exist (v=c), and what is the duration of their existence, and how is that measured?"

          Well, there are at least two kinds of objects associated with v=c, photons, the force carriers of the electromagnetic force in Quantum Electrodynamics, and gluons, the force carriers of the strong force in quantum chromodynamics. The indirect evidence that these exist is that they play an essential role in these theories, and these theories have very successfully withstood experimental challenge.

          The direct evidence can be obtained by setting up an experiment in which a photon source is aimed at a detector a distance r away, emits photons at time t=0 and the detector indicates a detection at time t=r/c later. At a microscopic level, the emission event at the source and the absorption event at the detector are due electrons going from a higher energy level to a lower one, and vice versa, respectively. This is all well understood.

          The "duration of existence" is a little tricky in relativity, because there are two time parameters, coordinate time and proper time. Proper time is the time measured in a clock at rest relative to the object you are observing. Coordinate time is the amount of time you assign based on a clock at rest relative to the observer. If the observer is at rest with respect to the thing that is being observed, the two are the same, otherwise they are related to each other by

          [math]\tau=\frac{t}{\gamma}=t {\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}[/math]

          where tau is the proper time and t is the coordinate time, and gamma is the Lorentz factor. You can see that if v=c, you get tau=0, so a hypothetical clock in the rest frame of the object would stand still from the moment the object comes into existence until it goes out of existence, even if t could be billions of years (for example, light coming from galaxies billions of light years away). All this is also well understood and not controversial. However, as I mentioned in Ken Wharton's blog, it does imply a problem that is currently not recognized by physicists because, again, if we did not already know that such objects exists, this would have surely have led us to believe that a prediction of the theory is that they don't exist.

          Finally, I did look over your short paper. It is rather informal. Although I tend to sympathize with what I perceive to be your main point, that the essential thing that distinguishes math from physics is that the latter uses numbers to express relationships between things characterized by physical qualities, let me just mention that one could mount a counterargument: In mathematics, there is a mathematical object called a measure, and the measure can represent any physical quality you want: Length, time, mass, apples, oranges, even probabilities. While often measures are used without dimensional units, they are used with dimensional units even in some areas of mathematics, for example length measures in geometry.

          Hope you found my comments useful.

          Best,

          Armin

            En,

            Thanks for your comments on my essay and the spirit in which they were offered. Those 11 pages of unused white-space in your own essay would certainly have come in handy!

            Now: Given the similarity of our conclusions and the rarity of such challenges* to Wigner's position, I'd welcome any deeper and more critical analysis of my work; especially given your facility with English versus us non-English engineers!

            * For easy comparison, here's my conclusion (from the piece that you cited):

            3.6. We therefore close with a happy snapshot of Wigner's (1960:14) views and our own:

            ... "The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve."

            ... Nature speaks in many ways, from big bangs to whispers [like the whisper of an apple falling], but just one grammar, beautiful mathematics, governs all her languages: thus all her laws.

            Here's yours: "There is no mystery. Whenever you find a consistent (repeatable) observation, it automatically means that you can use math to make utilitarian sense of it."

            So on this small but important point, it seems we agree: There is no mystery.

            [...] added for clarity. Cheers; Gordon Watson: Essay Forum. Essay Only.

            Hi Jon,

            Sure, put me on the spot. Couldn't you just ask me a simple philosophy question instead, or something?

            Your questions are about subjects in which I claim no expertise. Answering such questions would be like filling out a polling questionnaire. Unless you are a respected authority, nobody cares about your opinions.

            Only one question relates to my essay, and that is the one I will answer. (Yes, a couple of the other questions tangentially connect.)

            Re: "Whenever you find a consistent (repeatable) observation, it automatically means that you can use math to make utilitarian sense of it." Why do I think this is true? It is not based on any theory but rather on informal observation of both nature and science. If something happens consistently (is repeatable), then its behavior usually depends on mechanisms that obey some principles. It seems to me that math can model any repeating process, while attaining at least some compression. The claim could be false, but if so, only in rare cases.

            Yes, I will look at your essay.

            En

            Dear Armin,

            I will move this discussion to your essay page. The apparently "wrong" prediction of SR is your project. That's all I need, to have Pentcho Valev go after me.

            Please don't mention this Mensa thing. I am already embarrassed enough. I wrote my essay on the last day just before the deadline, and as I was filling out the form, they sprung this Bio requirement on me. Knowing that I had zero math or physics credentials, I tried to put something in there to gain "respectability." If I had more time, I would not have said anything besides that I am interested in this subject.

            En

            Gordon,

            Since this is about your essay, I will transfer it to your page (just wait, I will copy the necessary parts).

            In the meantime, if you have time and the inclination, you can look up two comments that I have made on other people's pages. They will give you a strong indication of the reasons that motivate my essay, and (potentially) provide philosophical "grounding" for all realist views.

            One is on Peter Martin Punin's page, so if you go there, look for En Passant wrote on Apr. 6, 2015 @ 04:55 GMT.

            The second one is on Marc Séguin's page. You should look for En Passant wrote on Apr. 3, 2015 @ 18:20 GMT. I intend to continue the discussion (which did not end with Marc alleging that we both make comparable assumptions, but I let him off the hook) on Punin's page. His position, being Platonist, subsumes the MUH. Being an engineer, you should like my comment on Marc Séguin's page, as it involves a bicycle chain analogy. (I am just getting you back for your sarcasm - from your comment above: "...especially given your facility with English versus us non-English engineers!...")

            That's all I will say on my page.

            En