Michel,

Thank you for your warm comments (it seems that your rating is lost in a mass of low tendency, however...).

I have read early your essay, too, and have been looking at a few of your articles, and have jotted notes about it; I only have not secured time to write a proper comment yet.

If you really like the thread, you may take a look at Derek Wises's http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2494, which touches similar topics. I have just posted a comment to it, where you should be in familiar terrain.

Dear Vincent,

I think Newton was wrong about abstract gravity; Einstein was wrong about abstract space/time, and Hawking was wrong about the explosive capability of NOTHING.

All I ask is that you give my essay WHY THE REAL UNIVERSE IS NOT MATHEMATICAL a fair reading and that you allow me to answer any objections you may leave in my comment box about it.

Joe Fisher

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Dear Vincent Douzal

Your essay connects physics with consciousness, similar as in my essay. I have a complementary view, when quantum consciousness and panpyschism are included, but we are almost not in contradiction. My idea is that ''free will'' is esential for consciousness, thus, this means that some things could be added, as ''I have free will, therefore I am.''

It seems that your section 5 is important, but I do not understand everything. Do you write about retroactive inhibition, similiraly as we do not smell something, if we are some time in the same smelly location?

Can you repeat, what do you try to say with homunculus?

Koch and Tononi defend panpsychism, and these two are names in consciousness research, what means turnabout in science world. But they do not include free will in their models and explanations. So this is my contributuion, but free will is given by quantum physics.

Your ideas can be simplified to atomic world, and maybe I do something like this.

Best regards

Janko Kokosar

    Dear Vincent,

    Thank you for all. I am working at your generous comment on my blog. You wrote" Abstraction is not easy. The simplest example I can think of is the transition from numbers-of (something) to numbers (`pure')" that reminds me En Passant's short essay. You can expect a reply from him.

    It is impressive how many references you red. I am familiar with Recoltes et Semailles. About perception, I was impressed by B. Flanagan. Are perception fields quantum fields? NeuroQuantology 2003; 3:334-364. Since that time I still don't know what to think about Quantum Consciousness but it seems to me quite clear that the subject and the object have to be taken together, as you have written, and this happens in a context.

    Best,

    Michel

    Dear Janko,

    Thank you for your kind comment, and since you are pointing connections to your essay, iis a good reason to put it duly on my schedule.

    I do not stress consciousness so much in the essay, rather cognition.

    If I understand your particular strand of interest, and are yet unaware of the following article, you will probably find much interest in it:

    John Conway, Simon Kochen The Free Will Theorem Foundations of Physics October 2006, Volume 36, Issue 10, pp 1441-1473

    (That's the Conway which is such a productive mathematician.)

    So about that section聽5. I have probably tried to pack too many things in too few lines. The general idea is in the title: because we completely elide the subject, it is impossible to talk properly about perception, because perception occurs when a subject meets the world.

    The illustration is straightforward: open any book on the physiology of perception, nowhere you will see that meeting occur. Take a diagram about vision: you have a scene, and it is shown projected (reverted) on the retina. Fine. Then the information is said to proceed along the optical nerve, and is projected on cortical areas that happen to be at the back of the brain. (I stop here but the process can go on.)

    So initially the subject was watching the scene, seeing something. Now, the visual cortical area does not see. Who sees? A small subject must be added, hidden somewhere in the brain, watching the visual cortical areas.

    If we where supposed to learn something about seeing, the experience of vision, we have not advanced at all. We have implied a full-fledged little man, inside the brain, doing exactly what the initial, complete subject was doing. This has come to be called the homunculus fallacy.

    You will find a short, clear description of the argument in The Oxford companion to the mind. (Or even, I check it now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument.)

    Thus what I say, again, is: If you take the usual, unexplicited hypothesis that comes from physics and pervades all science and all Occidental thought, there is no way to build a theory of perception proper, because you need both the world and the subject to be actually describing perception.

    It is a matter of elementary logic.

    Regards,

    Dear Vincent

    As, I read you, it seems to me, that anyway we write about the same think from different aspects. Your homunculus means that the same as I claim that explanation of brain processes does not yet give explanation of consciousness.

    I read Conway's article and I have it also in reference in some of my papers. It is not completely the same as free will in the brain, because quantum free will should be random. But it seems to me, that Conway's free will is also free will in brains.

    My essay.

    Best regards

    Janko Kokosar

    Dear Vincent,

    I have not much to add to what you superbly wrote about my dialogue. When you write "that physics is by definition mathematical, therefore mathematics has to be efficient" I agree and we are quite close to "Science and Hypothesis" that you also quote at several places.

    The group concept: absolutely yes in the Grothendieck's expanded meaning. Quantum groupoid (in Wise's essay): not sure and may be this can be falsified.

    A remark: why is it so difficult to find the maths of biology (including at the basic level of DNA and proteins) ?

    Why is maths so close to physics? Despite so many essays, I don't consider the mystery is lifted, may be the key is in neurophysiology, ant colonies, human sociology. I like Bach-y-Rita's work.

    Thanks for your time.

    Michel

    6 days later

    vincent douzal wrote on Apr. 16, 2015 @ 21:38 GMT stub

    Dear En Passant,

    Your essay is short, but sound on many points.

    Few have raised the case of categories (not in the mathematical sense, more in the spirit of Eleanor Rosch or George Lakoff), your qualities.

    The connection you express between mathematics and physics states clearly the basic idea of empirical knowledge, with only a pragmatic criterion, under conditions of repeatability or reproducibility.

    I won't paraphrase everything, I'd be longer than you.

    Very good points.

    Regards

    report post as inappropriate

    Author En Passant replied on Apr. 21, 2015 @ 07:13 GMT stub

    Dear Vincent,

    I am glad you understood what I was saying.

    And I thank you for reading my essay. You already know that I could not care less about winning anything.

    But I am not only studying physics - I have to understand everything. If you would be so kind, could you tell me where your last name comes from?

    If I were to place it on a map, it would be somewhere in Western France (similar names also occur somewhere between Turkey and Eastern Europe). If you don't want to share this info, that's OK.

    En

    report post as inappropriate

    reply to this thread

      Dear `En',

      So you are curious about my name. The origin is quite obscure, I never found any etymological clue, but the unique source seems to be a small village in Tarn, France. There is a variant with an ending `s'. That's in the vicinity of Albi, and during the cruzade against the Albigeois in the early 13th century, many families moved to the area of Strasbourg for instance, and into the territory of (now) Germany, and perhaps further, areas which were more welcoming for protestants. This seems to be the reason why the name is found also there.

      I am learning from you that the name is also found up further in Eastern Europe and up to Turkey.

      `En passant', I would not dare asking you the origin neither of your first name, nor your surname...

      Regards.

      Dear Vincent,

      Thank you for your scholarly and well-written essay. We appreciate your proposal about `making physics relative to a cognitive subject'. Somehow we missed to grasp [the limitation is ours] as to what stance you are taking with regard to mathematics in relation to cognition, and what makes mathematics so effective in physics. We will be thankful if you could kindly summarise your outlook here.

      Best wishes,

      Anshu, Tejinder

        Dears Anshu, Tejinder,

        Don't blame your limitations. The essay was required to be clear, the author should have done better, and you are generous to say it is well-written.

        1. If you want to reason about the effectiveness of mathematics, to evaluate, or even to measure it, you must endow yourself with a frame of reference where you can measure it; you need a standard to which you can compare it. This means you need a larger space, containing mathematics and other things, within which you have at least a possibility to distinguish differences, and say what is more apt to what. This is the etymological sense of to explicate: ex-plicare, to unfold, to show there are different components, and those unfit explain by contrast those fit.

        This cannot be done, for instance, in an ultra-Platonist stance, where mathematics is a completely pure, separated realm: With mathematics already split apart, how can you show them distinctively more effective than... what? It inhibits any sort of explanation about the effectiveness of mathematics.

        2. To be able to account for the effectiveness of mathematics you must account for processes of perception and cognition, and within them, of mathematics as a specialised activity (or as the product of that specialised cognitive activity).

        3. I propose a framework in which all kinds of perceptory or cognitive structures, including mathematical, come into being homogeneously. This should not be a big surprise, if you accept that you capture an important part of mathematics by defining them as the science of structures, or the science of patterns. To perceive is already to find patterns.

        So asking about the effectiveness of mathematics is a bit like asking about the effectiveness of perception --any sort of our anticipations, any of our behaviours. Certainly there is some effectiveness, because that is what we live by.

        Each perception is a bet, an interpretation, and those that are felt unsuccessful are strongly counter-selected, while we keep using those `correct, up to now'. Similarly we work hard to select only the very small subset of mathematics which works successfully in a given situation. In such a Darwinian context, there is no general reference frame to rate effectiveness, you can only say what your best result is, in the locally explored context.

        4. Hence the amazement about the effectiveness of mathematics disappears.

        5. (In fact, the mathematics we choose to write in our books, and use, are already a selected subset among a larger world of a priori possible mathematics: we want consistency, i.e., we prefer to describe structures which lend themselves to construction of other structures.

        This is certainly a very small subset of the possibles, much like continuous and differentiable functions have been shown to be an infinitesimal subset of functions everywhere continuous, but nowhere differentiable, though we practically speak nearly only of the latter. Do we wonder why most of the laws we write are continuous, differentiable? Or why we require the algorithms we write to be effective, that is, to finish in reasonable time on our current computers? This is exactly the same bias. Already noted by Descartes: ``Good sense is the best shared-out thing in the world; for everyone thinks he has such a good supply of it that he doesn't want more, even if he is extremely hard to please about other things.'')

        You said summarise?

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