Gary,

Re your reply 7 May 2016 @ 00:58 GMT:

A 2016 experimental test of the Conway and Kochen free will theorem reported that: "Our experiment is a test of the free will theorem since it implements the conditions under which axiom (i) applies, then checks axioms (ii) and (iii), and finally reveals an extreme violation of the predictions of theories in which elementary particles have no free will."[1] Did you notice that FQXi referred to this paper, under the Tweets banner on the left of the Community page, about 5 days ago?

Mathematicians Conway and Kochen describe what they mean by free will: "To say that [experimenter] A's choice of x, y, z is free means more precisely that it is not determined by (i.e., is not a function of) what has happened at earlier times (in any inertial frame)." [2]

If we have free will, then so do particles: ". . . 'We've proved that if we have free will, then so do the particles.' " With this discovery, and this particular choice of words, Conway and Kochen created one of the most controversial theorems of their careers: The Freewill Theorem." [1]

1. "Experimental test of the free will theorem", Bi-Heng Liu et al, 27 March 2016, http://arxiv.org/pdf/1603.08254v1.pdf

2. "The strong free will theorem", John Conway and Simon Kochen, 2009, https://arxiv.org/pdf/0807.3286.pdf

3. https://plus.maths.org/content/john-conway-discovering-free-will-part-i

    There are many experiments that show that there is no completely deterministic outcome for an action. This is the nature of our quantum universe. So free will is then a result of that same quantum uncertainty.

    "I will simply ask one question and give my interpretation. Is there an experiment that can be performed that will distinguish between determinism and free will? I don't think there is. Remember, we can only empirically prove that something is false by presenting contrary evidence."

    What this means for neural action is that it is our primitive mind that chooses action or inaction and that choice is a function of a lifetime of experience, the sensations of the moment, and a recursion or feedback that involves the choice. Since the choice that we make is entangled for some very short correlation time with the neural packets that are defining that choice, that self energy represents a fundamental uncertainty. In other words, given the same universe, a repeat does not result in the same outcome.

    This does not mean that there are not more likely outcomes for choice, but it does mean that free will is part of a quantum universe. Note that the GR universe is deterministic and that is why we know that GR cannot represent all of reality.

    Gary,

    Re "we can only empirically prove that something is false by presenting contrary evidence":

    There IS experimental evidence. See my reply below.

    Steve D,

    Re "But we evolve also":

    One can only hope! : )

    Steve A,

    Clearly our universe is mainly deterministic, but not 100% deterministic. It is the very small percentage of "freedom" in the parameters of physical outcomes that makes all the difference. Re "free will is then a result of that same quantum uncertainty": I would say that free will/ choice/creativity is the CAUSE of that quantum uncertainty.

    (See also my reply to Gary below.)

    So Steve A,

    What I am saying is that we individuals personally and actually make a small difference to the world: we are not merely 100% a product of deterministic laws plus quantum uncertainty. We are actually the CAUSE of (a small amount of) change: we are not helpless ragdolls moved around by laws-of-nature plus random uncertainty. What we choose to do DOES matter.

    Steve A,

    P.S. What I am contending is that we are not pushed round by the universe. Instead, we are (part of) the universe: what it is and what it does.

    John,

    " ... it might be arguable that it is that nonlinearity of changing time that keeps space connected."

    And that's what I argued in my 2007 ICCS conference paper, "Time, Change and Self-Organization."

    Lorraine,

    Many thanks. I will take a look at the links provided. I do not use Twitter.

    Best Regards,

    Gary Simpson

    We are in agreement about the nature of free will. You mention, though, that we are not quantum rag dolls and so you evidently do not like the idea of probability driving free will. Many people feel the same way about our quantum universe...kind of a love/hate relationship...but really more of a compassionate/selfish attitude about quantum feeling.

    "We are actually the CAUSE of (a small amount of) change: we are not helpless ragdolls moved around by laws-of-nature plus random uncertainty. What we choose to do DOES matter."

    What makes sense to me is that most choices are fairly predictable based on our compassion for others versus the selfishness needed for survival. However we can choose to be more compassionate and thereby change the universe. When that choice depends on objective factors, it is predictable. When that choice is a toss-up, it ends up being probabilistic and so it is not clear why this is so derisive.

    Neural free will is still subject to the coherence size of humanity and so that is why we are not just quantum rag dolls...we are quantum rag dolls entangled with humanity...our neural choices are entangled with the neural choices of the sentient lives that entangle us.

    Hi Jedis,

    John,it seems that the primes and the numbers are proportional with the spherical volumes.More the increasing mass on the entropical Arrow of time,the number increases towards bosons and spherons produced but decrzases towards the singularities.It is fascinating because gravitation is infinite at this cosmological singularity,the central biggest BH of the universe.I see that Tom had discussed about time.How can we analysr this time with the two systems, the photonic model and the spheronic model? If spherons breaks the special relativity because they aren't bosons?how can be consider this irreversible time with gravitation?It seems to me that the rotation spinal of the central BH implies the universal clock of evolution.How can we superimpose the two aethers,the two sphères with their aethertimes.The spherical volumes and the numbers are relevant.Tom If you superimpose the lunminerous aether with the gravitational aethers proportional with their BH and their spherical volumes.You could perhaps find the volume of the central BH in seeing the serie evolutive of spherical volumes.In logic more we go towards the central sphere, more the volumes increases.The correlated spherical gravitational aethers also increase proportionaly.You can make it Tom :) ps Big Bang is not really logic, the expansion is gravitational and spherical from thie singularity.Where is this centralsphere?at how many miles?What is its volume,what are the speed of spherons produced by this singularity?Infinite at this wall? what is the volume of the gravitational aether from this center? Is it in increasing ?The puzzle is complex but the generality is simple dear Jedis Mr Agnew, James, Lorraine, Gary ,John,Tom....Have you ideas for the serie of BH towards the center ?The quantum serie,primordial,is a relative foto of our universe but with scales and motions and volumes different simply it seems to me humbly.The geometrical methods and algebrical can be relevant if the numbers and volumes are found with the good récurrences.You can make it dear thinkers of the SPHERE.Be the force with you.:)

    Protons and their stability considering the time of desintegration are relevant to analyse in deeper calculations. .The spherical volumes can be correlated.What is the serie towards the singulartity, the biggest volume.That said it is paradoxal because we tends towards 10^-35m and more far even andthe spherical volumes increases towards the number 1 but the scale decreases.The bridge between the two quanta of E can be found.Dear Jedis ,let's utilise the good mathematical methods......

    4 days later

    If space is measurable distance between material objects, space-time is measurable distance between the images of objects formed from received electromagnetic information. For example I could use a rod to measure the distance between two stars that I am seeing in the night sky. The information from which those images are formed will have had its origin at different times unless the star objects are exactly equidistant from my location. So it is not just a space measurement. Likewise astronomers can make space-time measurements between the images of objects obtained via their observational devices. There is no evidence that space-time is a part of the external environment.

    Maybe I didn't say that very well. The images of objects are interpreted as the sources (that produced that information from which the images are produced). Images of the external environment are not necessarily formed from information of temporally homogeneous origin. The night sky is a good illustration of this because of the very large and very different distances of the sources of the images seen together. If the images are interpreted as their sources then the distance between them is a space-time interval. If the images are regarded only as images co-exiting Now then the distance between them is a spatial only distance.

    One of the criteria for axion theory, which has three degrees of freedom, was the avoidance of topological defects that arise as the local ground states with inconsistent phase meet (a la grain boundaries in solid-state physics).

    If we consider this as an analogy for the formation of a spatial lattice manifested as "dark energy", then we don't need to avoid the defects: they actually serve to explain the existence of quasars, the super-massive black holes at the center of galaxies, and the large voids in the distribution of visible matter.

    These concepts are explored in more depth here: https://everdeepening.com/toward-a-new-physics/

    Of course, this might also arise in purely quantum theories of gravitation, but I tend to doubt that: the mathematical formalism seems unlikely to support the formation of rigid grain boundaries.

    6 days later

    Pentcho,

    I started a new thread here just for you.

    You frequently refer to the schizophrenia of Relativity ... i.e., the requirement of simultaneously keeping apparently mutually contradictory concepts inside one's brain.

    I won't attempt to alter your opinion on this but I will offer an additional thought ... At the age of 56, I am learning to play piano. After two months of lessons and many hours of practice, I have learned to play simple versions of Sonatina by Clementi, Fur Elise by Beethoven, and Hungarian Rhapsody No 2 by Liszt. Why do I mention this? Because in each of these pieces, my left hand and my right hand must do different things and they must do so in a way that is synchronized with each other. This is a little like the schizophrenia you describe.

    Perhaps the way to resolve these apparent contradictions is to find a way for the left hand and right hand to work in unison. The first problem is to figure out what physics uses as 'hands' and then figure out how many hands it has.

    Just a thought ...

    Good Luck and Best Regards,

    Gary Simpson

      Gary,

      The contradictions Einsteinians keep in their heads are not apparent - they are of the type "both A and not-A are true". For instance, Lee Smolin rejects Einstein's relative time but continues to worship the underlying premise, Einstein's constant-speed-of-light postulate (from which the relative time has been deduced). In logic, as you know, the combination "true premise, wrong consequence" is forbidden.

      Another example is the speed of light falling in a gravitational field. Some Einsteinians teach it is constant (zero acceleration), others that it DECREASES (the acceleration is NEGATIVE). There is even a third (small) group that teaches that the speed of falling photons varies like the speed of ordinary falling bodies (the Newtonian view). The groups never contradict one another so here Orwell's "doublethink" should be replaced by "triplethink".

      Pentcho Valev

      If the main codes, gravitational correlated with the gravitational aether are from the central cosmological singularity.We can so imagine a serie of BH towards the supermassive BHs central to galaxies.The serie is between 1 and x.Now imagine simply that the informations go from this center to BH with a decreasing of spherical volumes of BH.So the BH are like coded system implying gravitation by encodings but also by primordial codes encoding if I can say.Now the spherons from this center are intriguing because they are the causes of our stars and our standard model to make simple.So it becomes relevant if we analyse the spherons having the potential to utilise or not their photons;I beleive that photons become photons when they pass in stars.They are spherons before.It is important because it explain thermo but also the wall between this thermo and this gravitation.The zero absolute seems the secret.All is spheronic and not photonic.Photons are just a comportment of gravitation in this line of reasoning.There it is more relevant still because standard model is encircled by gravitation.And this gravitation is the main chief orchestra.The special relativity is correct for bosons photons but not for spherons.The spherical volumes and the rotations spinal and orbital more the angles become interesting to analyse.

      Gary,

      nice try, but what both you and Pentcho describe is not what constitutes clinical schizophrenia. Actually diagnosis is not only inexact, it is highly subjective and there are no objective tests by which to categorize behavior which might resemble symptoms. It can be easily confused with hypervigilance associated with post traumatic stress, and unfortunately environmental conditions producing traumatic stress are also precursory of schizophrenia. If you are interested, there was an experiment done by David Rosenhan published in the journal Science in 1973 titled 'On Being Sane in Insane Places', which was the result of his own studies of how schizophrenia was being perceived and treated by the psychological norms of the time. In that experiment, volunteers with legal professionals proactive as safeguard, feigned auditory hallucination and were admitted to hospital wards diagnosed as schizophrenic. They then acted normally while concealing flushing the prescribed medications down the commode, and responded to staff they felt fine and weren't experiencing any symptoms. Not surprisingly, none of the staff on the wards or psychological professionals recognized any as faking it, but a lot of the other patients did. It led to a revision of protocols in diagnosis and treatment, including removing the long held belief that the condition was incurable. It currently is estimated to afflict only about half a per cent of world population, and in Pentcho's case is simply a handy prejorative against what he disagrees with. There isn't anything clinically insane about Relativity. jrc

      Pentcho & John,

      I don't actually think piano is a form of schizophrenia ... it is multi-tasking that requires good coordination. Sometimes I find it useful to think of things in entirely different ways or from a new perspective. Sometimes someone else can trigger a new or useful thought for me ...

      Regarding Relativity, to me the objective is to have a perspective that resolves the contradictions if properly understood. The perspective must also make predictions and allow calculations:-)

      Best Regards and Good Luck,

      Gary Simpson

      There are cases of clinical schizophrenia due to awareness of obvious logical schizophrenia of own thinking. Georg Cantor got repeatedly insane and died in a madhouse. When he failed to provide a proof that he had already announced he even claimed having got his insight directly from God.

      A more than infinite quantity is self-contradictory, and Cantor's naive set theory has not at all proven useful up to now, not even after it was seemingly rescued into tho axioms of ZFC. The basic mistake was already made e.g. by Albert from Saxony and Bolzano who ascribed a number of points to a length.

      When Weierstrass spoke of infinite numbers, he ignored Archimedes. He and Dirichlet came not from an academic background. Even Kronecker was doomed to fail because he intended the impossible: making the continuum algebraic, i.e. composed of numbers.

      Among those who more or less got ill or committed suicide were more mathematicians like Minkowski, Hausdorff, Goedel, Turing, and Grotendieck than physicists like Boltzmann.

      Einstein was not just more robust but for him seeming success and recognition up to huge admiration were sufficient.

      ++++