The key requirements that allow goal oriented structures to develop in the Universe by Declan Andrew Traill

Dear Declan,

The problem with considering the universe to be God is that the intelligence that was required to build the universe would have been needed from the beginning of the universe to even generate energy photons and matter particles, etc. and the universe would not have had any structure at that time that could contain any intelligence. The universe even today does not contain such intelligence. There is no observational evidence that the universe is creating any new universes. Even the most intelligent living being in the universe today, which as far as man here knows to exist is man himself and man is nowhere near intelligent enough to plan and build the universe, so the required intelligence had to come from outside of the universe in order to plan it out and then build it all from base motions successfully. This means that both must exist separately. This does not mean that the scientific method cannot be used to learn things about God or his creation. After all, the scientific discoveries about the complex structure of the universe and the living creatures in it have now made the preponderance of the evidence to be in favor of God's needed existence to explain how it could possibly come about. There are many things we can learn about him from observing the universe that he made. The fact that he could start out with just basic motions and build them up to make the whole universe in all of its complexity shows us that he is worthy to be honored by us and we can learn much about how to do things ourselves by observing how he did these things. The fact that man builds things on the level that he can, in a similar way, does give credence to the concept that we were made in his image. Of course, the image is never as good as the real thing, so we can't start with base motions and build a universe, but we can build small things based on similar principles with the materials that we can work with. The way that the universe is made indicates that God desired for us to know that he built it. As an example, if he had only made it possible to construct the protein machines that are needed to create living creatures or if he had made a mechanism that automatically built the needed proteins in large quantities, so that we would see them laying around everywhere, it might not seem so impossible for them to have somehow come about naturally, but instead he made it possible to make so many different proteins that it would be obvious that they could not have come about naturally. I have found other such indications that he made the world in such a way as to tell us things about him. In the scriptures God tells us that he is a spirit. He tells us that a spirit has not flesh and bones (not made of matter). He also says that those who are led by the Spirit are like the wind. You can hear the sound thereof, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes. A good image of this is the sub-energy particles because you cannot see them or tell where they come from or where they go, but you can experience their effects like the push experienced when the like poles of two magnets are pushed toward each other. They also hold all of the matter particles together in the atomic and molecular levels of construction, etc. He says that his son Jesus Christ is the only mediator between him and man and that man is intended to be his body. Energy photons are a good image of the Son because they can transfer motion and information from sub-energy particles to the matter particles which make up the body structure of the universe. This transfer can work the other way also. There are also three major hierarchical structural levels that build the complexity up to the large scale objects that we see. They are the basic particle level, the atomic level and the molecular levels of structure. These three levels are for the most part invisible to us except when very large numbers of atoms or molecules are joined together. God also generally remains invisible to us except when he appears to someone to give a message to man or in the form of works that man cannot do such as in miraculous healings, etc. The longest time that he appeared was when he sent his son Jesus Christ into the world for over thirty three years to have him give us his New Testament or agreement with man during the last three and one half years of that time, which was about two thousand years ago. Since you desire to believe in a naturalistic world construction, you probably do not believe in such things and I did not either until I opened the scriptures and found that it contains scientific information about the structure of the world that is still well beyond man's current level of understanding. This is extraordinary for a book that was written about two thousand years ago, which is very long before man had any idea of the nature of atoms let alone subatomic particles, energy photons, or sub-energy particles or the field structures that they make. So, information has been given to us about God, why he made the universe, and how we figure into all of it, in both the structure of the world and also in his words that he has given to us through man over time. I gave some information from the scriptures about the structure of the world in Genesis at the end of my paper and there are many other things in various places throughout the scriptures that give information about many different things, but there would be no use going through them unless you are interested. If you are interested, I would be happy to give such information.

Sincerely,

Paul

Dear Declan

I think your essay is convincing " none is more essential than the fact that the energy in the Universe has a wave nature and is able to form stable three dimensional standing wave structures that persist over time. We know these structures as particles."

If it was not true we would not have a chance discussing this problem for we would nor exist.

Respectfully Karoly

faaascinating. in the original (non-truncated) version of my essay i point out that the "system known as peer-reviewed journals" has in fact become *un*intelligent, having reached a pathological (ill) state. i am intriguged that you too, declan (and others) have also been stone-walled. i am considering putting a proposal to fqxi to help break out of this, if you'd be interested to discuss it further.

declan, i love that your essay is short and to the point, but also on topic. i rated it highly, accordingly.

Declan,

I very much agree with your statement: 'Given a survivable environment, some structures will develop mechanisms that allow them to survive better than others, thus there is a clear bias towards these structures' survival. This is the case from the most basic chemical compounds, right up to living organisms. Ultimately this is what drives natural selection of species. So this innate selection process that favours 'good' structures over 'bad' structures is the third requirement to create structures that have aims and intentions to survive. The primary force involved in such interactions between particles is the Electromagnetic force. This level of interaction is also governed by Quantum Mechanics.'

The structural sequence (of survivors) from 'the most basic chemical compounds, right up to living organisms' is formalized in my essay 'The Cosmic Odyssey of Matter'. My essay further identifies social organizations as part of this sequence.

I would very much appreciate your review of my essay, should you have a few spare minutes.

Regards, Ed Kneller

Hello Traill

If I understand you correctly your measure of intelligence would be, "Once an organism has intelligence it is then able to understand its environment so that it can do things to enhance its own survival." This stands in stark contrast with the measure for intelligence that I have suggested, which would be that the 'organism' would nurture its root elements so that their chances of survival are enhanced.

I think it can be argued that your measure is what the observer from the outside sees, whereas my measure looks at what is actually happening within the organism to enable the behavior that the observer sees on the outside. Thus, if one were to set about creating an AI, it might have to be created using my measure, but the external/empirical test for validating the existence of the AI might still be what you have proposed (your measure is easier to validate). However, we may not want to create an AI that tests positive to your measure since such an AI will likely cause some conflict with humans.

Thanks for your insight on this topic. You have certainly made me think harder about my core assumptions regarding intelligence.

Regards, Willy

Dear Declan Andrew Traill

I invite you and every physicist to read my work "TIME ORIGIN,DEFINITION AND EMPIRICAL MEANING FOR PHYSICISTS, Héctor Daniel Gianni ,I'm not a physicist.

How people interested in "Time" could feel about related things to the subject.

1) Intellectuals interested in Time issues usually have a nice and creative wander for the unknown.

2) They usually enjoy this wander of their searches around it.

3) For millenniums this wander has been shared by a lot of creative people around the world.

4) What if suddenly, something considered quasi impossible to be found or discovered such as "Time" definition and experimental meaning confronts them?

5) Their reaction would be like, something unbelievable,... a kind of disappointment, probably interpreted as a loss of wander.....

6) ....worst than that, if we say that what was found or discovered wasn't a viable theory, but a proved fact.

7) Then it would become offensive to be part of the millenary problem solution, instead of being a reason for happiness and satisfaction.

8) The reader approach to the news would be paradoxically adverse.

9) Instead, I think it should be a nice welcome to discovery, to be received with opened arms and considered to be read with full attention.

11)Time "existence" is exclusive as a "measuring system", its physical existence can't be proved by science, as the "time system" is. Experimentally "time" is "movement", we can prove that, showing that with clocks we measure "constant and uniform" movement and not "the so called Time".

12)The original "time manuscript" has 23 pages, my manuscript in this contest has only 9 pages.

I share this brief with people interested in "time" and with physicists who have been in sore need of this issue for the last 50 or 60 years.

Héctor

Dear Declan,

With great interest I read your essay, which of course is worthy of the highest rating.

I'm glad that you have your own position

«but none is more essential than the fact that the energy in the Universe has a wave nature and is able to form stable three dimensional standing wave structures that persist over time. We know these structures as particles.»

«topic of wandering towards a goal resulting in goal oriented structures in the Universe. Clearly the formation of particles is the most essential step in this process»

Your assumptions are very close to me

«Mathematics and Physics drive every stage of this process by repeated application of the same rules over millennia in much the same way that mountain landscapes and images of trees/leaves can emerge from fractal equations.»

You might also like reading my essay , where the fractal principle of the device of matter is substantiate.

I wish you success in the contest.

Kind regards,

Vladimir

Dear Declan,

Many thanks for the kind words about my essay .

I give two direct links to download the file in pdf format with text of my article "The deterministic gravitational waves".

Hyperlinks are distorted by the system, so I give symbolic link addresses

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&confirm=no_antivirus&id=0B1MvF-AefpMmU3hTSWtQTWUtRTg

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B1MvF-AefpMmU3hTSWtQTWUtRTg

I apologize for the inconvenience, and hope for understanding.

I wish you success in the contest.

Kind regards,

Vladimir

DECLAN,

Interesting essay, excellent in many ways, and concise is good!

I like; "as complexity increases, intelligence will evolve as it presents an advantage that allows an organism to better survive." and "The primary force involved in such interactions between particles is the Electromagnetic force. This level of interaction is also governed by Quantum Mechanics."

I hope you may get a chance to read & comment on mine, showing you're certainly right, and how!.

Very best

Peter

Dear Andrew

I have read your essay just now. The matter is I am also deeply sure in the wave-field nature of particles as you. I have opened your articles in vixra.org that I need study in near future. You can find my papers also (see in refs), and you can see where I had reached in the same direction. I thing we will find many questions that we can share each with other. So, It is nice to meet and welcome you!

Best wishes!