Dear Rocha,

Thank you for such nice interest and visiting my essay. I am writing a reply now for your esteemed comments on my essay there, Please have a look...

Best Regards

=snp

Dear Daniel de França Diniz Rocha ,

I am just repeating my reply here....

..............Reply...................

Thank you for your valuable time and interest, we will work together no problem

............... Your words..........

Your essay is hard to understand, but I think it is excellent.

..............Reply...................

Thank you for your kind words and compliments ....

............... Your words.......... I am trying to figure out your ideas yet, going through your other published papers, since this out of my expertise (I am a physicist, though I like biology).

..............Reply...................

Wowow wonderful!

............... Your words.......... Indeed there is a problem with what age does galaxies peak formation. They do seem to have a rather complicated way to behave.

..............Reply...................

You mean about galaxy quenching? Or only peak formation ?

............... Your words.......... I wonder to know how do they appear in a telescope when they are forming.

..............Reply...................

I am just giving two reported cases of Galaxies / Clusters of Galaxies which are being generated after Bigbang

[35] Rakos, Schombert, and Odell in their paper 'The Age of Cluster Galaxies from Continuum Colors' Astrophys.J., 677 , 1019, DOI: 10.1086/533513, e-Print: arXiv:0801.3665 [astro-ph] | PDF arXiv:0801.3665v1 [astro-ph] 23 Jan 2008

[36] C. PAPOVICH et el, CANDELS OBSERVATIONS OF THE STRUCTURAL PROPERTIES OF CLUSTER GALAXIES AT Z=1.62, https://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.3794v2.pdf

See the CANDLES web pages also for simple language explanations.

There are many other papers and websites also if want them I will give them....

You can see the reply to post above by "Gary D. Simpson wrote on Feb. 10, 2017 @ 23:59 GMT"

You can see the attachments there also for your ready reference

............... Your words.......... If seems they are always either stable or colliding.

..............Reply...................

Not always..... Galaxies take birth, live their life, and then they will quench! Follow the life cycle

....................

I am really thankful to you for your interest

Best Regards

=snp

Dear Daniel,

as I stated above, interesting essay. For me, there wer esome jumps in your argumentation:

- You claimed that intention is given by the propagation of chemical clocks. Here I missed some steps to get this statement.

- Derived from this statement, that life is composded at least by a very primitive network of chemical clocks. I see that chemical clocks are needded to get a control about the chemical processes but it is not life by itself. You need structure formation driven by nonlinear interactions. (but I see your intention)

But I like some of your claims abou the connection of stability and topology or that membrans played a strong role in thze formation of life.

A good essay (which I voted highly above the average) with a lot to think about

Best

Torsten

    Dear Torsten,

    There was no jump in the argument. There are 3 issues here.

    1.The conditions of the primitive Earth already had the necessary ingredients for a chemical clock. The problem is, as I posted in the abstract, what I propose is a research path. So, in a sense, the first part of the essay is a research proposal.

    2.The other is a linguistic one. Intention and aim are synonyms in usual language and intentionality is a very complicated philosophical term and only vaguely linked to intentinon. So, I looked for the philology of the words and I defined in the simplest terms what aim and intention are.

    3.I defined life as a radically different thing from life as we know it. In a part of the essay I, indeed, post the expression, "life as we know it". The initial structure was purely abstract, chemical pathways. But this definition of like keep existing, as in the form of the entirety of the biosphere, and all its subsystems, ecosystems, are life forms by themselves. I argue that this is a type of Gaya hypothesis.

    9 days later

    Dear Daniel,

    Your essay is quite complex. I did very much appreciate your review of "The eight immortals of the animal kingdom", which is as concise a summary as I have seen. It certainly is as close to 'magic' as one can imagine, and does seem to defy evolution. You said you would explain it in the next session. Was your explanation that reproduction addresses the fact that the system will accumulate malfunctions and so makes a copy before it breaks down?

    I can imagine big numbers like the next guy, but it's extremely difficult for me to envision random mutation 'inventing' this complexity. The growth of an organism is as miraculous is anything I can imagine. Thanks for describing key aspects of the process.

    While the extended growth of topological organisms can be (in theory) described by math, it is not at all apparent that math has much to do with the process. You then extend the growth of organisms to societies and the 'invention' of mathematics to solve the attendant social organization issues, concluding that, "at the present time, mathematics cannot be disassociated from people." I agree with this perspective.

    Similarly, while one can apply the words 'aims' and 'intentions' to the process, it is difficult to describe intention to the cell-based growth of multi-cellular organisms. The control issues are complex, and the fact that the same eight genes operate across a broad range of organisms is mind blowing. As I understand it, it is largely the frequency with which the gene is expressed that differentiates the structures.

    At the end you mention the "extended Gaia hypothesis". I do not know the specifics of this hypothesis, but from what little I know, it would not seem to be unrelated to the consciousness field.

    Thanks again for reminding us what goes on in order that you and I might live.

    My best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Edwin,

      I did not raised at all the issue of consciousness in my essay. I wrote about aims and intentions, from the point of view of the definition of life I gave. So, it was about the meaning of life.

      The math part, I tried to make it clear in section 1,2 and in the additional notes. Section 1 and additional, it is about that the fundamental operation life can do is an inequality operation, in the additional notes I wrote how these are accomplished and I cited the mathematical tools used to model that. Section 2, I wrote about the composition that life could make, as I defined, during early natural selection, to compose new life. That was a kind of lambda calculus, but there was not much space to talk about it. I should talk about the Chemoton theory, as what I proposed was even more fundamental, since it reduced all to a simple chemical clock.

      On section about the Gaia Hypothesis, I mean that the definition of life can be extended to the stage as life as we know, if we consider it from the point of view of an entire ecosystem. In this regard, the biosphere is a life form with "arms", or "pseudopods" like and amoeba, that can reach food and redistribute for all system. I consider extended because the original Gaia Hypothesis is about regulating the Earth conditions for life, while in the essay, the biosphere is a gigantic lifeform living on earth. Perhaps I should had used extended from a restricted Gaia Hypothesis.

      As you can notice, well, I tried to make noticed, the components of the biosphere, have a tendency try to reproduce the totality of the biosphere. A multi-cellular life or a society of humans or ants, try to exercise a number of independent functions to an extent would be require an ecosystem. That is, a tendency to a division of work.

      Humans are becoming aware of this process, and use math to reach this totality. But, there is an ecological meaning of this, that to reach that, we must become in harmony with the rest of the biosphere. (If we reach and colonize other planets, we must be able to reproduce one very well, cue to the failure of the Biosphere 2 project).

      Dear Daniel Rocha,

      Your essay is thought provoking. You state that a coordinated clock is a necessary ingredient for life. In fact you say this defines life, which I am a bit uncertain on. However, a living system you maintain requires what might be called a master clock. This might be, though I am not sure about that status of research on this. On a larger and more complex scale, the brain has the alpha, beta etc waves which seem to serve as some coordinating the occurrence of action potentials or neural activity. On the cellular level this would imply the frequencies of various molecular processes form the set of possible time periodicities from which by complex coupling a single periodicity or frequency emerges.

      I just just did a brief search on this or a related idea and did not find anything that seemed to match. This does make some sense. At least there should be the emergence of some regulating time keeping process in a biological system. I would think that some cell cycle regulating kinase or protein dependent kinase such as protein kinase A or cyclin dependent kinase linked to cell cycle. These are linked to cyclic forms of AMP and GMP, which in turn are purines at the core of molecular biology from DNA/RNA to cellular respiration. The cyclins are a then a class of proteins that are necessary for the regulation of the cell cycle, and these seem to be at the heart of anything approaching a cellular clock.

      Cheers LC

        Dear Daniel,

        At first I was intrigued by your title that includes "The meaning" of Life", as my essay is named "The Purpose of Life".

        Then I started reading your essay and was happily surprised with the interpretations of the data available to our what I call "collective memory".

        Your interpretations are deepening the understanding of our emergent reality.

        You also indicate that "human beigs" represent the "conclusion" , one of the reasons you mention for this is the use of mathematics. Of course as we are humans, the "center" of our awareness is our consciousness. You are in the middele of a sphere where all information is simultaneously coming in (I call it the Subjective Simultaneity Sphere SSS)).

        I agree with you when added : "It is also through mathematics that we (humans) are not only in the postion to procreate through biological progeneration but also through the creation of AI that would lead to a new form of consciousness. This could be the folow up of hunanity. hen we are really stepping up a rung on the ladder. This new form of consciousness may be able to teach us how to survive without killing others...and a system of organisation without the need of POWER...and suppression.

        I enjoyed your essay very much and therfore gave it a high merit. I hope that my remarks will be interesting enough for you to read, surely comment and also give a rating to my essay : "The Purpose of Life".

        best regards and good luck

        Wilhelmus

          l de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 29, 2017 @ 22:36 GMT

          Dear Wilhelmus,

          I really loved your essay. In GR is also timeless, in that time is a dimension like the others. Given that what we have in GR are events, measured by a test particle, carrying a clock and a ruler, it really becomes an essential issue. This is a problem in that temporal paradoxes are created because the ordering of events, and so causality, become a confusing issue. Solution for this issues are avoided by imposing conditions which are not contained in the theory.

          In QM, time is a parameter for coordinates or fields. This leads to complicated issues, unless you have a low dimensional system, like in 2 dimensions (say, string theory). But this goes awry quite quickly and there is no way to probe this kind of system in any conceivable known experiment.

          So, you come up with an intriguing idea, an eternal now, that is, an eternal event. I think the eternal event, associated with the eternal now, is more fundamental than brains, plants, or whatever living beings, or particles, given that any particle (and thus any of those) has a discontinuous existence(the moment it interacts, it trades particles, so, if you check a Feynman diagram, it cannot be said to be the same). Then, you come up with the concept of SSS.

          I would guess that this SSS is a sort of "condensate", a kind of 3d slice of the universe. While in GR there are no preferential slice due equivalence of observers, this SSS is living like "floating" on GR, perhaps with a universal time, which you call an emerging reality. This would be an extended object, where the eternal now is happening, emerging all the time. Perhaps a clue to this object is dark matter, since this emerging reality would interact with the gravitational field, making sure things stay in sync with a condensated surface with a unique universal time.

          Dear LC,

          I think that most of the cell reactions can be characterized as chemical clocks. As long as there is homeostasis, that is, that is, control parameters, there will be a clock of some kind, not even if is not regular in time. Like a thermostat. Not, that this is not the same of a random reaction, since in this case the chemical reaction will simply follow the 2nd law of thermodynamics and defuse energy, where a chemical clock is a physical analogue to engine. On the other hand,a clock is more akin to a Carnot cycle.

          The idea of a chemical clock came to me when I was considering the case of pH regulation of a cell, the ion transport. This is the most trivial active function of a membrane cell, in my view, other than the most trivial function, that is no to let the contents of the cell to spread to the environment. The ion transport is like a little machine, that is always pumping ions in order to keep the pH around a certain level.

          The idea is to consider the most primitive example of life, a kind of self controlling cycle. Some thing I had to exclude, to try to get in the most basal level I could thing of. I can get rid of a membrane if the elements needed for are abundantly available in the primitive ocean.

          I can get rid of reproduction if there is no defined requirement for perfect conservation of information. The sequence of stages required for the working of a clock is itself information. I don't know what is the original sequence, but I tried to propose one that would work like one in the primitive ocean. Also, as I posted in the additional information (BK reaction can be thought of composed of sub reactions) and also gave a certain mathematical treatment in section 2, different cycles could superimpose into a different one. Also, due differences in composition due the depth of water and environment, there should be some sort of competition for which reaction could thrive.

          In the large ocean, cycle waves would compete, like these ones, in a petri dish. Just imagine that the ocean is a thin layer over a huge surface.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDgx6n6aExE

          I also proposed that, after a long time, these reactions would be strong enough, or adapt to, the kind of environment rich in organic material, like, in alkaline vents. The presence of stuff like lipids and rna, would select much more complex reactions on the long term, like those which happen in cells.

          Dear Daniel

          You may very well be right about life being immersed in control systems, right from the bottom up dealing with cellular structure, all the way up to that of human society. "... controls case is fundamental. That life is all about control and stability, adapted to a random environment and that it tries to stay as close as possible to a predictable pattern equilibrium, even if it shows non trivial behavior."

          If you get the time, do check out the Good Regulator Theorem of Conant and the Law of Requisite Variety of Ashby. I think you might be able to find more parallels dealing with those laws from the biological world. I rate your essay very highly, despite the fact that I am not all that well versed in the biological and chemical terminologies. I could see that you have the big picture view correct, and the fine details surely must follow from that perspective.

          Warm Regards, Willy

            Dear Daniel,

            In the perception I devellopped there are no time-paradoxes. Even if one of the probabilities in TS is time-travel (and there is...). So...

            You go back to a specific ENM from a specific time-life-line. The as then newly created life-line the evolves as a new one, while the old one still exists as an Eternal Now Moment. Kill your grandfather here and nothing happens to you because the ENM where you were born from his daughter is still an available ETERNAL NOW Moment. ALL the probabilities available as ENM are eternally in TS.(This is different from MWI wher everything splits up and is reality) In my perception EVERY Emergeing reality is an eternal availability.

            GR is closely related to the SSS of an agent. Outside this SSS everything like Time, Space, Mass Gravity is blurred and is PAST.

            In Quantum Theory the smallest time lapse is the Planck time. Compared to this "rythm" our heartbeat is taking an eternity, almost the same as if you are are riding on a photon from the observation point of the SSS of another agent...

            In our EMERGING reality time is a RESTRICTION, no time no FLOW, no experience of consciousness.

            The SSS is the sphere around the "emerged" agent, so it is a way to find in our blurry emerging reality simultaneity. But even the signals received on this SSS are the PAST, a simultaneous past. I don't like to use the word "ILLUSION" because it has some strange side-effect, so I used the description "Emergent phenomenon". If I wouldn't have done that I think the essay would be ignored...

            The Eternal NOW Moment is not happening because each happening needs time, and as TS is like your Nothingness timeless...You could eventually an ENM compare to a singularity (with no dimensions) that is the cause of a FLOW in an Emergent phenomenon called REALITY for an emergent agent.

            What I liked very much in your essay is that you also like me are thinking "out of the box" Scientists are shouting "We need a new theory etc" but then go back and calculate. Like in many essays I have read , they keep searching for the announcer in the radio. They will never find him there.....

            I hope that you will continue your thinking and I thank you for your attention and rating. If you have more questions don't hesitate to pose them.

            best regards

            Wilhelmus

            I was trying to make it into a form that I could treat in terms of mathematics. Can you give me an idea?

            Hi Daniel,

            The perception of a Total Simultaneity (not existing entity in our emergent reality so a Nothingness) is very difficult for me to treat mathematically, I proposed alrady the "Hilbert Space".

            Besides I am very bad in mathematics, it is not my cup of tea.

            I will make an illustration of how I am trying to visualise :

            1. Total Simultaneity that is containing ALL realites as probabilities (could it be compared to a Feynman Diagram ?)

            2. The ENM (probability) inside TS that contains the emerging phenomenon of the FLOW (time and space) of a specific life line of an agent.

            It could look like a point from where an infinity of threedimensional radius are spreading, writing this I think that it also could be a kind of holographic effect (three dimensional emergence from a two dimensional surface). But then the emergence from a point into the illusion of a lived life, the memory of...

            I am still working on it....

            Wilhelmus

            Dear Wilhelmus,

            Yes, it looks like a Feynman diagram, but if you do that (I was imaging that also when I made my suggestion), each "reality" has a probability. Think of the possible ralities having a gaussian distribution (it could be something else, but just stick to this idea for the moment). But given that the quantity is too big, it tends to a very thin line. But notice that the lines which are not realized also contribute for your measurement, a sort of interference, just like the 2 slit experiment, but with very complicated inteerference patterns.

            This agent that you say, and keeping in mind the Feynman diagram in mind, is not continuous. Just take a looke at a diagram. There will be splits in the path. So, the agent is not continous. But, the flw you discribe would be the peak in the distribution. This is where the thing about GR enters in the scene. In GR you don't have these splits. The problems with paradoxes are due geometry, you don't have information coming from the future, you have a collision with yourself coming from the future. You cannot say this is "now". GR is a classic theory.

            So, you see, let's say that this Eternal Now has a weight, and that this weight (mass causes weight because it distorts sapce time, but here the reason is different) is because you are trying to make sure things do not have this crazy loop. Which doesn't mean information can come to the future, but that the "now" is respected. So, I conjecture that dark matter is this weight that doesn't allow things to close a loop (let's say it bends space time in such a way that it doesn't allow a loop). I am not sure how to implement that. But since you mention holography, there is a paper that you can draw some inspiration (and get some idea what type of mathematics you should study to formalize your thoughts)

            https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.02269

            https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.01415

            Cheers,

            Daniel

            Dear Daniel de França Diniz Rocha

            I am sorry I did not notice this, thank you for posting this on my essay....

            Thank you for reading my essay.

            That is a Good question.

            There is no Bigbang according to Dynamic Universe Model. When I say BEFORE or AFTER Bigbang, it is the time frame to denote a point of time 13.8 gega years back. This is generally believed by Bigbang based cosmologists at that time there was a big explosion and Universe was started from that time.

            Just to mention from that point of time I used those words "BEFORE or AFTER Bigbang".

            I hope this clears.

            Best

            =snp