Luke, thank you for your reply. Re. the acorn I was thinking about the acorn/tree DNA of the individual but you are right that there is a lot of variation among the population of individuals.

I see clearly now the the difference between 'intelligence' as used in general parlance; to describe an entity that has characteristics such as reasoning, comprehension, ability to learn and more, compared to your use of the word as a synonym for 'self organisation' applicable to processes and inanimate matter. Clearly they are very different meanings of the word intelligent. I agree that the higher mental function intelligence requires the organisation of matter that can be reduced to individual particles. I think it is misleading to put the word intelligent on the organizing which happens via mindless physics and chemistry. Self organisation is not a standard definition of 'intelligent'. No problem with 'creative self organisation' as a description though.

I like that you have thought about the question and how it can or can't be answered, and how it might be usefully modified.

Kind regards Georgina

Dear Geraldine Ewan,

what you wrote about Trinity is very interesting to me. I do not know to work you cited, but will take a closer look - if available in germany. If you are interested in some thoughts on trinities in the physical world, please see my comment to Steve Dufourny at my essay page (Feb. 16, 2017 @ 17:09 GMT).

Thanks for your comment and the citation! And if you want to read something about the problem of evil, please read my comment to Theophanes Eleftheriou Raptis, right above of your comment here.

Dear Theophanes Eleftheriou Raptis,

i think you are right here. If one believes in a personal God and not just in a first source, this problem - the problem of evil - has to be answered.

Fist possibility: Its all a game, a kind of tour of souls away from their creator - to experience how it feels to be separated from God. Then we did choose all the evil by ourselves. Being separated from the realm of God does mean to be separated from his/her values and properties. This would explain the lack of such properties in our world.

Second possibility: Souls have been entrapped to be separated from God (in christian theology this was due to Lucifer who entrapped a huge part of souls in the heavens). Since every soul is made like the father (in some aspects), it is eternal and has free will (can choose).

In both cases the evil is not due to God, but due to the decisions of the souls. Personally i believe in Jesus Christ, i do not go to Church, i do not read the bible, but believe that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected from the dead. I am finished with all the esoteric nonsense i read and heard over the years. This stuff does not safe a single soul, neither here on earth from its problems, nor in the world after. It is just a kind of seducement, mixed with some real metaphysical experiences, a mix of lies with some truth to think one is just like God.

thanks theo :) yeah the unabridged version makes it clearer why i have a problem with the idea of scientists being able to understand consciousness sufficiently as to be able to implement it to bring about machine-conscious beings (... and then torture them). the lack of understanding *is* precisely why humanity would consider it perfectly ok to do that.

if we were not at a critical juncture where the power and money of one person could have such a dramatic impact on our ecosystem, in effect become a surgeon operating *on themselves* with neither knowledge or anaesthetic, risking killing us all in the process, i would not have written the conclusion that i had, because there would be no need.

much as i would *like* to get involved in the development of machine consciousness.

interestingly, that same high-level powerful group that has got together to collaborate to create Arrogantly-Artificial-Intelligence has *just* funded a think-tank on how humanity should cope if all goes to hell in a handbasket.

utterly cool, sridattadev, and beautiful to know that you are gaining such insights. perhaps an additional insight for you:

if we may define a soul as being simply a MASSIVELY high order solution (and i really do mean exceptionally high) of Laplace's Y(theta, phi) spherical functions, our soul *may* develop without a body, but, like the surgeon that may need to operate on itself, it is necessary to maintain self-coherence - a coherent E.M. field - *at the same time*. this of necessity limits both the rate (and type) of self-development that may occur.

a body therefore provides an anchor for the E.M.-field-that-is-the-soul whilst allowing and supporting *cognitive dissonance* and subsequent fragmentation of the laplace solutions. in other words, the soul's attachment to the body *may* allow it to support states that would otherwise causes its complete collapse and fragmentation if it was not so attached. thus, birth (and life) provides the (risky!) opportunity for fast-track development.

cool, huh? :)

"Scientists and contemplatives alike are confirming that the foundational nature of reality is relational, and everything is indeed a holon, a part that replicates and mimics the whole."

... after all, that would be the simplest, most efficient and most elegant way for things to end up - or more to the point "emerge". thank you.

Dear Luke,

You are absolutely right and we concur fully, Soul can exist independently on it's own. Consciousness or Soul is fundamental and can further manifest Mind and Body if it chooses to. In a simple geometric evolution, a 2-Sphere (Soul) comes first and then evolves to a 3-sphere (Soul, Mind and Body). Also please see There are no goals as such it's all play.

Love,

i.

This is a very pleasant essay to read. I resonate with the idea that consciousness is defined as a "Critical Instability Point." This matches with my conclusion that the laws of physics are a collective behavior at a critical point of universality. Consciousness only exists when connected with this through senses. That's my view. It's good to see that people are keeping the TM movement going.

    thanks philip. so... extending what you say, logically (regarding consciousness): to *deny* the evidence of one's senses - or mind - would be the beginning of pathological states. we cannot *possibly* say that we are moving towards a goal, with aims or intent, if we seek at the same time to *deliberately* refuse to acknowledge certain input or conclusions. how could we? under such circumstance the adjustments needed to create the required corrective feedback cannot possibly be successful.

    regarding TM: i feel that it's... kinda... well, it was one of the pioneers of what's now become much more prevalent, so now kinda "blends into in the background noise". but, more than that: you never *needed* to "support" the TM "movement", you just needed to do it :)

    Dear Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton,

    Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

    I merely wish to point out that "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.

    Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

    The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

    A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

    Joe Fisher, Realist

    hi joe,

    yes i've used "it really should be simpler than this" many many times. also however in the field of software engineering i have learned that sometimes it really does have to be complex in order to cover "all the options" shall we say. but even there, there is no need - no call - for wasting time "over-engineering". in complex systems this is especially true, where it is hard enough to understand what's going on *without* having "over-engineering" in the mix as well :)

    l.

    Wonderful essay Leighton,

    Your ideas and thinking are excellent. It is first time I met a reverse engineer and I am lucky to see his skills are used in neuron sciences and our brains. Best wishes.

    Some of your words...

    Those Reverse-Engineers that I have encountered in the Software Libre field have a rough time: their expertise allows them to foresee outcomes and make near-prescient predictions with startling accuracy that then, like the Prophets and Oracles from past millenia, has them hated, feared, ignored, despised and in some cases has large Corporations going after them - illegally or unethically or both - with absolutely everything they've got, including outright fabrication, blackmail of their sponsors as a way to stop their funding, and slander

    ......................... Very sad state of affairs for such excellent skills.

    I felt very happy that you are using Indian philosophy and logic like "Advaita Vedanta" and "Transidental Meditation of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the leader of the TM Movement,". They are very good things.

    Your application examples like 'human DNA,' 'Quantum Mechanics with a "twist": self-referral QM', "Maharishi's perspective that the Unifying Field is "Creative Intelligence"

    .................. Here I am proposing some form of detectable intelligence in the Universe which exhibits goals and reproduction in universe. Dynamic Universe Model is another mathematical model for Universe. Its mathematics show that the movement of masses will be having a purpose or goal, Different Galaxies will be born and die (quench) etc...just have a look at my essay... "Distances, Locations, Ages and Reproduction of Galaxies in our Dynamic Universe" where UGF (Universal Gravitational force) acting on each and every mass, will create a direction and purpose of movement.....

    For your information Dynamic Universe model is totally based on experimental results. Here in Dynamic Universe Model Space is Space and time is time in cosmology level or in any level. In the classical general relativity, space and time are convertible in to each other.

    Many papers and books on Dynamic Universe Model were published by the author on unsolved problems of present day Physics, for example 'Absolute Rest frame of reference is not necessary' (1994) , 'Multiple bending of light ray can create many images for one Galaxy: in our dynamic universe', About "SITA" simulations, 'Missing mass in Galaxy is NOT required', "New mathematics tensors without Differential and Integral equations", "Information, Reality and Relics of Cosmic Microwave Background", "Dynamic Universe Model explains the Discrepancies of Very-Long-Baseline Interferometry Observations.", in 2015 'Explaining Formation of Astronomical Jets Using Dynamic Universe Model, 'Explaining Pioneer anomaly', 'Explaining Near luminal velocities in Astronomical jets', 'Observation of super luminal neutrinos', 'Process of quenching in Galaxies due to formation of hole at the center of Galaxy, as its central densemass dries up', "Dynamic Universe Model Predicts the Trajectory of New Horizons Satellite Going to Pluto" etc., are some more papers from the Dynamic Universe model. Four Books also were published. Book1 shows Dynamic Universe Model is singularity free and body to collision free, Book 2, and Book 3 are explanation of equations of Dynamic Universe model. Book 4 deals about prediction and finding of Blue shifted Galaxies in the universe.

    With axioms like... No Isotropy; No Homogeneity; No Space-time continuum; Non-uniform density of matter(Universe is lumpy); No singularities; No collisions between bodies; No Blackholes; No warm holes; No Bigbang; No repulsion between distant Galaxies; Non-empty Universe; No imaginary or negative time axis; No imaginary X, Y, Z axes; No differential and Integral Equations mathematically; No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to General Relativity on any condition; No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models; No many mini Bigbangs; No Missing Mass; No Dark matter; No Dark energy; No Bigbang generated CMB detected; No Multi-verses etc.

    Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true, like Blue shifted Galaxies and no dark matter. Dynamic Universe Model gave many results otherwise difficult to explain

    Have a look at my essay on Dynamic Universe Model and its blog also where all my books and papers are available for free downloading...

    http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/

    Best wishes to your essay.

    For your blessings please................

    =snp. gupta

      hi Satyavarapu thank you for the comments and the introduction to your work. it occurs to me to mention that a friend of mine made me aware of his work as well (into 4-momentum: a perspective where you consider everything in terms of TIME x y and z), and he said to me that part of the base laws is that 4-MOMENTUM is conserved.

      now, we're taught that *energy* is conserved but i was struck dumb for several minutes as to the possible implications of 4-momentum being conserved. not only can you derive the law of conservation of energy from that but also it implies that the RATE OF CHANGE of 4-momentum is ALSO CONSERVED.

      if i understand your paper correctly, this could be, fundamentally, why you were able to derive the double blue/red-shift results that you did, because you would get a "push-back" from one galaxy onto the other.

      i would be interested to hear your thoughts about the implications of conservation of 4-momentum.

      9 days later

      Luke,

      Boy am I impressed! From your essay I copyed "100% certainty is a pathological state of mind" And when I pasted it into this post I got "Ô£ÂÔ£ÁÔ£ÁÔ£¬ ÔØØÔØírtÔØøÔ£ÉÔÖÑtÔ'í Ô£És ÔØø ÔÖúÔØøtÔØñÔÖªÔØºÔÖªÔØúÔ£ÉÔØØÔØøÔØº stÔØøtÔØí ÔÖªÔØó ÔÖáÔ£ÉÔÖÑÔØ×Ô£│"

      I am still laughing ......I will read the rest of your essay. I know it will enlighten me. But I do not need to read further to give this essay a 10.

      Feel free to read my essay. It is not nearly as good as yours!

      Don Limuti

        Luke,

        Just finished your paper and agree completely with:

        Preserve existence and become part of something larger.

        тЬзPrтЭбsтЭбтЬИтЭб тЭКт'атЬРstтЭбтЩетЭЭтЭб тЭЫтЩетЭЮ тЭЗтЭб PтЭЫrt тЭ-тЭв тЭЩтЩжтЩатЭбtтЭдтЬРтЩетЭгт-▓тЭЫrтЭгтЭбrтЬзтЬ│

        FYI: Your essay has some similarity with William's essay: http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2844

        Namaste,

        Don Limuti

        9 days later

        Dear Luke,

        I note, "Thus, it is emphasized that goals are needed. If there is no goal, there is no means by which efforts may be focused."

        Dr Alex Hankey's work to construct a new formulation of QM remained unstated. So, one is not in a position to infer whether there could be a mindful laws. While it is understandable that creating an empirical demonstration of such laws that exhibit mindfulness could not be easy, even some indirect means to observe or derive could have been demonstrated. Without which it is near impossible to make headways to gain objective acceptance.

        No doubt, it was fun to read, "The electron can even 'react' by changing its state, and can even expand its radius (move to an orbit), and team up with another electron to create a superconducting pair. All of which sounds pretty damn hyper-intelligent to my mind". My first reaction was what a brilliant argument.

        If one ascribes the natural outcomes of electrons' interactions describable by 'mindless laws' as the achievement of their own wishful aims, then of course the definition itself has been turned onto its head, and then every act of every physical entity in the physical universe would appear intelligent. That is, a change in definition makes everything willful. Let me see if I can construct an example such that a violation of this principle becomes apparent. Each electron has intentions favoring its own goals, so does an atom, a molecule, and even an organism. What does the theory say, if electrons' aims are in opposition to atom's aims, atom's aims are in opposition to that of the hosting molecule or to another atom in the same molecule, and so on at each level in hierarchy?

        If the components of an organism have aims in opposition to the whole organism, may be such that the organism dies but those molecules, or organs have their goals met. First, there has to be rules who wins over whom and how? Conflict among multitude of such mutual interests have to be resolved by new laws. Second, why do I not feel that I am in opposition to the will of any organ in my body, or that I am resolving the issues among multitude of organs in my body. Third, if each of the fundamental entities in nature is 'out to organize' themselves, then why does the 'increase in entropy' come into force at all? I mean, what intelligent source in the universe is beating the acts of these entities to enforce increase in entropy?

        One thing is certain, this may constitute a high quality subject matter of quality science fiction, if a story teller is creative, and director is intelligent to portray conflicts and their resolution. Imagine, a photon is received by a matter body, an electron is knocked out, but it quickly decides to join another atom, or decides to go solo into the space, since different electrons may have different views about what is good for them. No, I am certainly not criticizing here, I am in fact having fun to see the possibilities.

        I am also impressed with the author's non-dualist sense of empathy with all the elements of the universe. I do not find myself competent to judge, therefore, I refrain from rating this essay.

        Rajiv

          Ok, I have read all the essays in this contest.

          I must say that your is the more interesting among all, initially you have disgressed a little, but the content is worth reading.

          It is interesting the theory of Alex Hankey (that the next months I must read), but I think the definition is right in some parts, but as you show could include each material point because of the critical point is not a stastistical point: if you use a statistical definition, naturally you get a definition of intelligence that is a macroscopical definition, and there is a clear demarcation between intelligence, and no intelligence, macroscopical matter.

          This is a clear example of a goal as the context required.

          The self censorship can only slow the research in the field (and it is always a political censorship), but in each case the result are achieved, so that I think that one must think about the ethics of the research, to reduce (or eliminate) the deleterious effects of the results: I think the possible results obtainable by an artificial intelligence in the care of the ills of the world.

            ha, hilarious :) appreciate you bringing william's essay to my attention. hmm, it explores bell's inequality.... have you seen joy christian's disproof of bell's theorem? very interesting battle going on there (which was sponsored by fqxi).