Dear Mr. Branko Sivlak,

Thank you for your comments regarding my use of the Second Law. To clarify, this is a rigorous approach to contrast the differences between systems operating with and without intent. In the case of Maxwell's Demon we have an accounting mismatch to track down, the result of an intent operating on an otherwise undisturbed situation. This in turn lead to the connection of erasure of information with intent, and gives us a thermodynamic trail to follow.

I am not sure if I follow your argument of how the relation-set (2) and (17) of your essay leads to the instantiation of agency or goal-seeking behavior. Maybe you could help clarify please?

Regards,

Robert

Hi Robert - thanks for much for the essay, I just read and voted for it. I thought your explanation of thermodynamics in terms of macro states and the relationship to the arrow of time was excellent. My own essay ("Agent Above, Atom Below" on March 6th) is also about macro states, but rather about their causal effects.

Btw, I thought you stuffed a lot of observations into these two sentences: "This efficiency of biological systems stems from having to be selective about which in- formation to store based on how likely it is to be critical to them in future. By looking at heuristic systems that comprise individual complex bio-molecular devices, like pumps and motors in cells, their ability to survive, and even thrive, becomes enhanced towards the future." I'd like to see this developed more in the future!

All the best - thanks for the read,

Erik P Hoel

    Hi Erik,

    Thank you very much for your compliments. I have in the meantime enjoyed reading, and voting for, your well written essay too.

    Regarding your comment, it would indeed deserve an essay of its own to expand on the multiple top-down processes that occur in complex biological systems, propagating useful higher-level structures. You might to consider the article about bacterial flagella by Mark J. Pallen & Nicholas J. Matzke, (Nature Reviews Microbiology 4, 784-790 (October 2006)), which goes into depth about the complexity of such structures.

    Regards,

    Robert

      Hi Erik,

      Thank you very much for your compliments. I have in the meantime enjoyed reading, and voting for, your well written essay too.

      Regarding your comment, it would indeed deserve an essay of its own to expand on the multiple top-down processes that occur in complex biological systems, propagating useful higher-level structures. You might to consider the article about bacterial flagella by Mark J. Pallen & Nicholas J. Matzke, (Nature Reviews Microbiology 4, 784-790 (October 2006)), which goes into depth about the complexity of such structures.

      Regards,

      Robert

      Dear Mr. Robert Groess,

      If I mention any goal, that is the goal of nature to produce proton, Eq.(17).

      Regards,

      Branko

      5 days later

      Dear Dr. Robert Groess,

      Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

      I merely wish to point out that "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.

      Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

      The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

      A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

      Joe Fisher, Realist

      Dear Joe Fisher,

      Thank you for your comment. I am a great fan of simplicity myself. simplicity on the far side of complexity. I have in the meantime taken the time to read through your essay and have placed a comment on your forum.

      Regards,

      Robert

      Nice essay Prof Groess,

      Your ideas and thinking are excellent like your opening sentences...

      1. You are reading this essay because you chose to read it. Moreover, a stupendous number of decisions had to take place in a particular causal sequence in order to write it. There is nothing accidental about these events, nor the order in which they have occurred. Aims and intentions abound

      2. Mathematical laws have been exceptionally robust at describing a wide range of interactions of these particles, and much of dynamics can be effectively modelled by the conservation of kinetic (T) and potential (V ) energy: E = V T etc..

      Good proposal sir, I fully agree with you............

      ..................... At this point I want you to ask you to please have a look at my essay, where I used the same conservation law of kinetic (T) and potential (V ) energy: E = V T

      ...............and where reproduction of Galaxies in the Universe is described. Dynamic Universe Model is another mathematical model for Universe. Its mathematics show that the movement of masses will be having a purpose or goal, Different Galaxies will be born and die (quench) etc...just have a look at my essay... "Distances, Locations, Ages and Reproduction of Galaxies in our Dynamic Universe" where UGF (Universal Gravitational force) acting on each and every mass, will create a direction and purpose of movement.....

      I think intension is inherited from Universe itself to all Biological systems

      For your information Dynamic Universe model is totally based on experimental results. Here in Dynamic Universe Model Space is Space and time is time in cosmology level or in any level. In the classical general relativity, space and time are convertible in to each other.

      Many papers and books on Dynamic Universe Model were published by the author on unsolved problems of present day Physics, for example 'Absolute Rest frame of reference is not necessary' (1994) , 'Multiple bending of light ray can create many images for one Galaxy: in our dynamic universe', About "SITA" simulations, 'Missing mass in Galaxy is NOT required', "New mathematics tensors without Differential and Integral equations", "Information, Reality and Relics of Cosmic Microwave Background", "Dynamic Universe Model explains the Discrepancies of Very-Long-Baseline Interferometry Observations.", in 2015 'Explaining Formation of Astronomical Jets Using Dynamic Universe Model, 'Explaining Pioneer anomaly', 'Explaining Near luminal velocities in Astronomical jets', 'Observation of super luminal neutrinos', 'Process of quenching in Galaxies due to formation of hole at the center of Galaxy, as its central densemass dries up', "Dynamic Universe Model Predicts the Trajectory of New Horizons Satellite Going to Pluto" etc., are some more papers from the Dynamic Universe model. Four Books also were published. Book1 shows Dynamic Universe Model is singularity free and body to collision free, Book 2, and Book 3 are explanation of equations of Dynamic Universe model. Book 4 deals about prediction and finding of Blue shifted Galaxies in the universe.

      With axioms like... No Isotropy; No Homogeneity; No Space-time continuum; Non-uniform density of matter(Universe is lumpy); No singularities; No collisions between bodies; No Blackholes; No warm holes; No Bigbang; No repulsion between distant Galaxies; Non-empty Universe; No imaginary or negative time axis; No imaginary X, Y, Z axes; No differential and Integral Equations mathematically; No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to General Relativity on any condition; No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models; No many mini Bigbangs; No Missing Mass; No Dark matter; No Dark energy; No Bigbang generated CMB detected; No Multi-verses etc.

      Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true, like Blue shifted Galaxies and no dark matter. Dynamic Universe Model gave many results otherwise difficult to explain

      Have a look at my essay on Dynamic Universe Model and its blog also where all my books and papers are available for free downloading...

      http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/

      Best wishes to your essay.

      For your blessings please................

      =snp. gupta

        Dear Mr. Satyavarapu Gupta,

        Thank you for your comments on my essay. Though perhaps I did not communicate my strategy effectively enough of using physical, measurable quantities to home in rapidly on what generates intentions in the first place. This was the intent of my essay and, although it may not have been a very illustrious exposé in that regard, I had hoped it would engender a nugget of insight or perhaps even be a source of inspiration for other authors.

        Coming to your essay, I did indeed read through it and, interestingly enough, found it quite useful in my line of work. Having said that, I have been unsuccessful at using your perspective to find an emergent, unequivocal, source of intentionality emerging from mindless mathematics. Perhaps I have misunderstood some key points.

        Regards,

        Robert

        Hi Robert,

        "Thus Maxwell's demon is the prototype of intention. He is greedily making choices to increase information"...... Did I get this right?

        This does strike me as fundamental. I believe that Max Tegmark has changed MUH to the IUH. Mathematics has changed to Information....In line with your ideas.

        Thanks for your clear and enjoyable essay,

        Don Limuti

        PS I noticed in your bio: His research interests currently include the limits of computability from fundamental physics and its relation to how we understand the universe on its largest scale.

        I have a computation I cannot make in a paper I wrote. So I only outlined it. I think you may find it interesting. Check out

        http://prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/view/1101/1089

          Dear Don,

          Thank you for your time in reading my essay and for your comments. Yes, your summary is spot on. Maxwell's Demon turns out to be a great example on how intentions manifest themselves in the physical world. Glad you liked the essay, it was a challenge to write.

          Thank you for your link to your research work on dark energy. I will have a closer look at it as well as your FQXi essay too.

          Regards,

          Robert

          Dear Robert,

          I read with great interest your deep analytical essay with ideas and conclusions that will help us overcome the crisis of understanding in fundamental science. I believe that the modern crisis of understanding in fundamental knowledge is the crisis of ontology. It is especially important that you actualize the concept of "memory". I think that this concept is the central concept - noumenon ordering the picture of the world of the Information age. I give my highest rating. I invite you to read my ideas .

          Best regards,

          Vladimir

            Dear Vladimir,

            Thank you very much for your favorable comments on my essay. They are greatly appreciated. As regards your question about a more substantive definition of memory, I think we agree when you say that "Ontological (structural, cosmic) memory is something that generates, keeps, develops, transforms, directs everything". Personally, I did not delve any deeper than it being a simple physical state that persists with time. With this definition any physical object can be usurped as a device for memory. The real utility of it though is only realized when coupled with the ability to process information that it represents at a higher level of abstraction (the definiton of emergence). Thank you for your reference to your essay. I will take a more detailed look at it.

            Regards,

            Robert

            Hi Robert,

            FYI: Have you checked out Ines Samengo essay. She also has invoked Maxwell's demon as a prototypical "chooser". She has focused on the memory clearing as a fundamental part of the action.

            There is something here...I wish I could get a clearer picture of it. If you have any insights would you post on my blog.

            Thanks,

            Don Limuti

            Dear Don,

            Yes thank you, I have enjoyed reading Inés Samengo's essay too. She and I both have references from Charlie Bennett at the IBM Research Lab in Yorktown Heights, NY. I had the privilege of spending some time with him about 10 years ago and his thoughts on thermodynamic considerations of computations are very poignant for this contest. The highly original and complimentary essays by Natesh Ganesh and Erik Hoel make a strong case for what you are saying as well. I really enjoyed your summary that Maxwell's Demon can be considered a "prototype of intention", something we are invited to consider when following the reasoning of Sherlock Holmes, "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". Perhaps we can ask if there are any systems in nature that separate thermal environments to produce heat gradients, that can be used for useful work. Thermonuclear reactions in stars come to mind as quintessential sources of heat gradients, but I will think about this some more in the spirit of what you are saying, that Maxwell's Demon may be trying to tell us more than we are currently seeing.

            Regards,

            Robert

            Dear Robert,

            Thank you for your comment on my essay.

            Indeed what I had to refer as "The collective NOW memory" is wht is available as information on our Subjective Simultaneity Sphere. It also means that it is available for ALL other SSS spheres of any form of consciousness. The center of an SSS is indeed an emerging physical point in our emerging reality with its restrictions of space and time.

            If we are expanding the radius of an SSS this new sphere can involve the whole "known" universe with all its known and also unknown (meaning the not yet interpreted and discovered data) information.

            This could mean that we are receiving at any NOW moment ALL information (on our SSS) about our specific emerging reality, in the middele ages the "interpretation" of that collective NOW moment was another one as the one we are receiving right NOW, becuse of lack of knowledge.

            When looking around in our emerging reality we become aware that only a little part of our consciouss companions are sharing the "knowledge" of the specific NOW we are experiencing.

            The accumulated "knowledge" (awareness) of ALL branches of science is available for ALL s data on their SSS. This also counts for the collective "history" of a specific NOW moment that includes the infinity of time before this NOW, only a little part of thsi is available as "knowledge" that we become consciouss of.

            You asked me the right question that I am still working on , thank you for that.That is why I like so much the FQXi contest , you are directly confronted with essential questions.

            I am going to read comment and rate your essay NOW.

            best regards

            Wilhelmus

            Dear Robert

            I like to mention some remarks on your very well written essay:

            * "The second LAW of Thermodynamics" is a "collective memory" of a past analysis in this specific NOW moment. In the next NOW moment it may be totally different. It may just be another interpretation of Maxwells Demon...

            * Consciousness may be the counterforce of entropy...

            * Any "limit" of minimal information (Landauer) is restricted in TIME. Time is an emergent phenomenon, so is information so are the receiving agents... Each NOW moment includes ALL information of its past.

            * AI is crated by emergent consciousness, so maybe it is a GOAL that is not only occupied by progeneration...but can be a means to overcome the restrictions of time and space and come closer to Total Simultaneity...

            * It sis no use I think to look for the announcer in the radio. Both the announcer and the radio are emergent phenomenae.

            I liked your essay very much, the above remarks are only thoughts that came up during reading, I wish you good luck in the contest, be prepared to receive negative ratings without any comment (I got 6 ones!!!)...

            best regards

            Wilhelmus

              Dear Wilhelmus,

              Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my essay. I appreciate it. I enjoyed your thoughts and extra perspective that you have provided. You say "Time is an emergent phenomenon, so is information so are the receiving agents". This is a fascinating discussion since I agree with you on the information and receiving agents. What I would love to understand better is the concept of time being a realization of another, deeper process. For example, neutron decay really happens at the scale where quantum effects are substantial, and yet we can treat the elapsed time for such an event classically. I wonder if you have more thoughts on that? In any event, thank you again for your comments and I will reply to your post regarding your essay on your forum.

              Regards,

              Robert

              PS: From the rules of the contest, I understand there is a good probability that excessively low ratings without basis will be cancelled and removed from scores before the final decisions are made.

              Dear Robert,

              I like your essay, I even managed to learn something from it. I have a couple of questions for you. At the conclusion, you quote P. Anderson:

              " In fact, the more the elementary particle physicists tell us about the nature of the fundamental laws, the less relevance they seem to have to the very real problems of the rest of science, much less society."

              If it is so, what do you think is the value of the particle physics for the humanity?

              I appreciate the very end of your paper:

              " They leave thermodynamic trails which we can follow. Their ultimate progenitors however remain elusive. Until such time as intentions find a way to know themselves."

              Do you think they might to know themselves in scientific way?

              I will score your text soon.

              Cheers,

              Alexey.

                Dear Alexey,

                Thank you very much for your time in reading and commenting on my essay. As regards your two questions, the Anderson quote I interpret to mean that particle physics is specialized in the way it is investigated, with no direct analogues that can be directly applied to other branches of science. I do believe there is great value in understanding particle physics though, especially since the way much of how our society has been transformed from early pre-technology days, is mostly in thanks to serendipitous discoveries along the way.

                Your seconds question about intentions knowing themselves, I very much like to believe that is a worthwhile goal that is within the realm of physics - though perhaps not quite the physics we have been able to discover yet. Those are two wonderful questions and I can keep at them for hours.

                Regards,

                Robert