daerengD Time Paradigm by Brian Beverly

Brian,

For me, it is something of a fractal issue, in that a finite reality requires a boundary that is far more complex to explain than accepting endless repetition of the measurable. In other words, it fits Occam's razor.

The measurable, quanta or universe, are nodes in a network which is implied, but not measurable.

John,

I'm glad you asked about infinity because it shows why combinatorics can give a conceptual understanding of quantum. The typical infinity thread leads to a mention of fractals. Fractals require the same type of structures on all scales. If the universe is anything close to being a fractal I would expect the problem of gravity in quantum mechanics to be much easier. Unfortunately, the fundamental quantum mechanical nature of the universe is very dissimilar to its large scale structures.

I'd like to summarize my above argument on infinity because I think it is a very important topic:

Quantum mechanics and experiments give finite real numbers:

[-n...-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4...n]

How should physicists and mathematicians calculate the finite real numbers to give valid predictions?

With:

1) Infinite real numbers?

(...-2,-1,0,1,2...)

2) What about finite complex (imaginary) numbers?

[-ni...-2i,-1i,0,1i,2i...ni]

3) Infinite complex numbers?

(...-2i,-1i,0,1i,2i...)

The best, with minimum assumptions, is to calculate the finite real numbers using other finite real sets. It is impossible to prove infinity via experiment. The proof in mathematics usually comes from induction:

1) Basis: Does it work for n = 0?

2) Inductive step: If it works for n does it work for n+1?

A proof by induction works for the infinite or the finite, but it does not tell us if our universe is infinite.

The quanta in quantum mechanics means discrete and that these numbers are not arbitrarily small. Here is a simplified argument with mathematical hyperbole:

E = nh ---> [E1 = h, E2 = 2h, E3 = 3h ----> [1,2,3,...?

It is incorrect to have an energy that can be E= 1.34645h Energy is a quanta, whole numbers, integers.

I think we should focus on the real numbers; pure mathematics can not tell us if our universe is finite or infinite. An experiment would only tell us a finite n value. If a later experiment finds n+1 then we still do not know if there is an n+2. George and I are playing it safe. We think an argument that says, "infinity explains everything" is not experimentally nor mathematically rigorous. An idea using finite real sets can be confirmed and falsified via experiment.

How many angels can fit on a pin head?

Prove it.

Sorry for the ranting,

Brian

Brian,

It's a basic dichotomy between object and process.

You think of quanta as discrete entities, but are they particles?

Yes, they are set quantities, but if they were distinct, how could they become entangled, such that when separated and measured in isolation, they possess identical properties? Could it be the quantity is a function of context and process, somewhat like drops of water tend to be similar in size, due to surface tension and gravity?

What about strings, with their external vibrations and internal dimensions? Are they an object, or a process?

What is the relationship between object and process? Which do you think is primary? Does form follow function, or is function a consequence of form? Is it a dichotomy?

Think of a factory; The products, the objects, go from initiation to completion, while the production line, the process, faces the other direction, consuming raw material and expelling finished product. Now put that in the context of time; The units of time, seconds, minutes, days, etc. are first in the future and after the hands pass over them, recede into the past, as the hand starts at their beginning and goes to their end. Meanwhile the process, the hands of the clock, just like the production line, is constantly going onto the next unit, as it finishes the old. It's a dichotomy.

So is reality discrete objects/numbers, or is it the process of counting them? Yes, the objects are finite, but where does the process end?

The coin has two sides, but it's difficult to see both at the same time. Do you think what you believe is the only way to see it, or is there a way to see it from the opposite perspective?

I think a few of your misconceptions of quantum mechanics are common and shared by the majority of others. The confusion is lifted with a better understanding of probability theory. Classical physicists believe that physics should be able to yield exact and certain outcomes of experiments. Quantum mechanics does not predict the exact outcomes of the experiment only the exact probabilities. In physics we have the wave-particle duality which is poorly summarized as matter can be both waves and particles. However, the truth of it is there are particles and they have a wavelike probability.

Lets assume a theory predicted the probabilities for an experiment and the theory gave six outcomes and each outcome had a 1 in 6 chance. If the experiment revealed only two outcomes, each having a 1 in 2 chance, the theory would be wrong.

I suppose a good analogy for wavelike probabilities for the contest would be IQ; the measurement of it and the probability of having an IQ "value". Lets say I give you the test "measuring" your IQ and the result of the measurement shows you have a genius IQ. To show how rare you are I refer to the wavelike graph that shows the spread in IQ. From the wavelike graph we deduce that the probability "someone" having that IQ is 1 in a million. In quantum mechanics if a second measurement or second test was given "fast" enough I would find you had the same IQ with certainty. However, if I did not perform the second measurement fast enough I may find a completely different outcome. Waiting to perform the second measurement allowed your IQ wavefunction to spread out in accordance with the time-dependent Schrodinger equation.

The mathematics of entanglement is carried out in the abstract probability space not the physical real space of the universe. For instance, tossing two coins has a probability space of HH, HT, TH, TT. The many worlds interpretation would have us believe that tossing two coins gives one outcome in this universe and the other three outcomes in three different "worlds". To answer your posts last question, the coin does have two sides and the probability space allows us to see it from all the perspectives which is the strength of the theory.

Your infinite process question is tricky. Theoretically people can undergo the "process" of producing children indefinitely but the earth can not sustain an infinite number of people. Even without conception there is not enough food (energy) to keep doing the "process" forever. The process I use for the collapse of the wavefunction is entropy and is an identical argument on larger scales. So perhaps the process of entropy increasing is fractal and maybe infinite. A possible end for that process is the heat death of the universe which will result in a boring low temperature existence. If the big bang is not a one time event then perhaps the process can carry on forever or maybe the universe will just exist above absolute zero forever. I'm an optimist so I'm going with the big bangs happen idea.

Brian,

"I'm an optimist so I'm going with the big bangs happen idea."

Wouldn't that imply infinity?

Not that I have any proof either, but while objects are by definition, finite, proposing processes are finite requires both initiation and completion mechanisms that seem far more complex and arbitrary than assuming they have no beginning or ending.

Which gets back to my point about time; That the very concept of beginning and end only applies to units of time, while the process of time is always going on to the next unit. Even the life span of the earth and the Big Bang universe constitute units of time which are first in the future and eventually will be in the past. Entropy, or not.

Entropy and time are linked. The future and the past are consequences of increasing multiplicity. The time I use for quantum comes from derangements which I show have microstates and macrostates. When the wavefunction collapses it is due to an increase in multiplicity creating an overwhelming probable macrostate. From combinatorics I am able to derive a wavefunction and explain collapse. This is the thread I would like to be discussing because I have put a lot of time into it.

Brian,

Sorry for going off topic in your thread. I only did that as a reply to a comment of yours in George Ellis' discussion.

As I read it, your Derangement model is a version of Many Worlds, with each derangement as a world line. ?

If I may, though, I would like to raise a point;

"A discrete fundamental object cannot be subdivided. Therefore, such an object is not capable of internal change. To experience change it would need to interact with other objects in the surrounding environment."

There are two parts to this construct. The "object" and the "interaction." My observation has been that while objects go from past interactions to future interactions, these specific interactions go from being in the future, to being in the past.

The issue is whether time is a fundamental dimension along which reality travels, in which case it is the objects traveling along their "world tubes" through "block time." On the other hand, if it is simply the motion of these objects bouncing into one another and creating the interactions, then time is the series of interactions going from future to past.

" One is from the irreversible collapse of the wavefunction, and the other from the reversible time evolution of the wavefunction:"

The collapse is future probability becoming past circumstance. The evolution is past to future cause and effect of the objects interacting.

John, I appreciate your interest and your good questions.

I believe there must be at least two fundamental objects in order for there to be an interaction. When the two objects interact there is a moment which separates the before and after. There is some initial condition say, (x)(y), then an "interaction" resulting in a final condition, (xy). I do not call this the past or the future because the objects have no internal entropy so time for them is reversible. The larger scale effect of entropy from the wavefunction collapse is what distinguishes the past from the future. The collapse from measurement changes the reversible time into the linear arrow of time we experience. The wavefunction may start to spread out after a measurement, but the total entropy of the universe increased from the initial measurement and can not decrease.

I do not use the many worlds interpretation and I'm proud of that. Each macrostate is initially a possible world line; some macrostate then becomes the world line when the wavefunction collapses as seen in George's essay. I use derangements to mathematically quantify the microstates interactions, provide macrostates and give probability coefficients. I also use the derangement's nearest integer property, [n!exp(-n)], which allowed me to remove the imaginary numbers in the wavefunction's time dependence. In the traditional wavefunction the exp(-it) function drops out during a measurement through a complex conjugate. In a deranged wavefunction the exp(-t) function "drops out" because it is actually the nearest integer function [exp(-t)] and it represents quantized values of time. Both wavefunctions have mathematically identical properties. The important difference between the two wavefunctions is the deranged one is real. A real wavefunction allows us to understand measurement and explain time on a fundamental level. The imaginary wavefunction can only be treated as a mathematical placeholder and it is unable to explain what time really is.

Brian,

While I'm more conceptual than mathematical, that is an interesting method of quantizing time. I think we have the same understanding of time as emergent effect, rather than fundamental dimension.

This does assume a finite universe, since entropy requires a closed set. Which does get back to the point of our discussion. If the universe is infinite, energy loss in one context would be energy gain in other contexts, with a total conservation of energy. The result would be cyclical time, as opposed to the linear time of entropy.

The past is viewed as immutable as one can't go back and change it, so this leads to the idea of block time, but this projected dimensionality is misleading, since all that is past is constantly being recycled and consumed, both energy and information, to manifest and define the present and as the present will be to cause the future. So time is both collapsing into the past and evolving into the future.

John, reading your essay reminds me of how I started thinking about time. Since you are more conceptual than math oriented I'll write out your major ideas using some math on your forum. That way other physicists will understand your conceptual approach instead of them thinking, "a simple farmer" (simple farmer?! Too modest!) used some physics nomenclature out of context, etc. Physicists don't like it when new ideas are created without any derivations, but I've noticed the new trend is impossible math with no concepts. Theoretical physics is mathematical concepts; I avoided writing a paper using only conceptual ideas because that is all I had for five years. Finally, within the past year, I have been able to derive the big ideas.

I am careful not to say time is an emergent effect because I believe that time is the derangement and the arrow of time emerges from the larger numbers. We are in agreement about what the general public considers to be "time" emerging. True, the block is evolving. I like to think each event as a chip off the "probability-space block" like an iceberg breaking up. Again I avoid the infinity topic because it is often misused and proofs are not rigorous. I find the more I move away from the physics experiments using infinity the easier it is to tumble down a rabbit hole. Since you like concepts I'll write out the concept that got me interested in derangements for understanding time.

Assume physics professors give brutal quantum mechanics exams. Additionally assume these professors are busy doing research and grading the exams is time-consuming. Due to the recent budget cuts in the sciences many physics departments can no longer afford graders. Out of desperation, physics professors redistribute the exams to their classes randomly for grading. There is one major problem; some students may receive their own exam to grade. The physics community begins researching derangements to determine the exact probability "NO!" student (none of the students) will receive their own exam to grade. Surprisingly, for a class with four or more students the probability no student receives their own exam is exp(-1)= 36.7%.

When I saw a similar example I thought of two fundamental objects (you call them atoms in your essay) create an event by interacting (you say collide) but in order for each fundamental object (atom) to experience the next event they must interact (collide) with something different. Similarly, the students started with their exam and need to get someone else's exam back and not their initial exam.

The four or more students with a 36.7% probability works for the numbers ([4,5,6,..., n],...,infinity). The equation for the number of derangements, n(d), is equal to the number of arrangements, n!, divided by e, and then rounded to the nearest whole number:

n(d) = [n!exp(-1)]

The derangement equation works for the numbers ([1,2,3,..., n],...,infinity). The exp(-1) is the number 1 divided by the number "e". The value of "e" is about 2.7, the e comes from the mathematician Euler, pronounced "oil-er" not "you-ler", and e is a mathematical constant found frequently. I want to encourage you to take up a study of math you have a strong physical intuition, both you and physics would benefit greatly. Ignore the frustration when you study math everyone sucks at it, physicists and mathematicians are good because they practice.

Brian,

I'm of the opinion math is a useful tool, but it can be abused. Essentially math is complex pattern recognition. The problem is that patterns are ubiquitous, frequently limited in application, often contradictory with other patterns, generally over interpreted and applied, easily manipulated, promote obsessive compulsive behavior, etc. Pattern recognition is also the basis and purpose of the thought process. It is foundational to politics, religion, economics, history and just about any other academic discipline you care to consider. I originally started studying physics as a way to understand the foundational patterns to nature and human nature. What I found is that physicists are human and subject to the same tendencies of over interpretation as other people. Witness various of the conversations going on in this contest, of people focused on the patterns they have latched on to and try to project on to others, as the others are equally committed to their own conceptual insights, equally over applied. Not that I excuse myself from this habit either, but I do try to keep thinks in perspective, to the best of my ability. I'm not an expert at math or physics and am not setting out to be. Given the state of the world economy and environment, my interests are only in those patterns which can be very broadly applied and useful to understand what is happening on this little blue ball in space.

To a certain extent, your idea is also a pattern you have recognized in probabilities and find useful for explaining time. Having grown up in the horse racing world, I have a great deal of respect for probability theories and you may well be on to something, but be careful. Something that seems to fit may only be a form of mathematical analogy that is useful up to a level of application, but might lead to serious navigational errors, if over applied.

You are still quite young and very smart, so my old fogy advice is always to keep things in perspective. Like riding a bike, you need to keep your balance in order to keep moving forward.

John,

The only time math is misleading is when the "human" element is involved. That human element is the obedience to the expert authority on a subject. Once you learn the math yourself you can derive ideas you can challenge that paradigm with a proof or counter proof. I believe the measurement problem was created from using the shortcut of imaginary numbers. The classical physics wave equation for the evolution of a plane wave does not match the Schrodinger equation. The difference is in the time derivative; the Schrodinger equation is first order and the classical equation is second order. I wanted to understand time which meant I had to remove imaginary numbers but maintain the wavefunctions predictive properties.

I believe mathematics represents the apex of human reasoning and logic. With only qualitative descriptions of Newton's laws and quantum mechanics we would be in the dark ages. Quantitative mathematics in any field such as: medicine, economics, politics and especially physics is the only way they can make progress. The power of math helps us make sense of the double slit experiment or a research questionnaire on political views. Ignoring mathematics results in stagnant fields mired with group think.

Brian,

I wasn't trying to be cynical about math. Yes, it is the most rigorous pattern analysis. The fact is that the amount of potential information far exceeds our ability to comprehend more than thin slices of it. Relativity and QM are good examples of patterns which make sense in the context for which they apply, but don't easily relate to one another. As I said, it is the basis and purpose of thought.

The fact that it is the apex of logic also means it is the most distilled and reductionistic. The problem with that is that linear logic necessarily doesn't operate in a completely linear reality. Time is a linear causal chain, while temperature is a non-linear scalar average. It's been my contention that the intervals between temporal quanta are non-linear activity, such as that described by temperature or pressure. Consider time in terms of worldtubes as the causal chains. There is no objective perspective to view all these subjective realities and they interact and counteract, like molecules of water moving about. So all this linear motion exists in a larger non-linear reality and is at its most elemental level, composed of non-linear energies and polarities. Time is the transitions which have some degree of credible connection. That these series define the processes of our lives makes them fundamental to the life experience. Math is the apex of that reasoning awareness.

John,

I know you were not being cynical. You're very smart and the advice is not "old and foggy". You should study math because you would quickly be able to recognize the patterns and it helps prevent dementia too! I hope you take my young and arrogant advice : ). Studying math is very boring, but the trick is to find a problem you like which motivates you to understand more. Look up the four color theorem it is a conceptual math problem I think you would like.

Pressure and temperature are well understood such as the ideal gas law:

PV = nRT

P = pressure

V = volume

n = number of moles

R = a constant

T = temperature (k)

When thinking about pressure and temperature it is impractical to calculate the dynamics (position, momentum, etc) of each atom. That is the strength of entropy in physics we can understand the system by generalizing the macrostate without knowing the systems microstate. Knowing the microstate would mean knowing the dynamics of every atom.

I know the point you were trying to make, it was not lost on me. I agree that pure math alone will not help us understand the universe. I think what you are trying to argue is something similar to the incompleteness theorem. In physics we do experiments to prove the equations and show that our understanding of the "pattern" is correct. Quantum physics has been experimentally tested to a high degree of precision equivalent to measuring the distance from the west coast to east coast and being off by a hair's width. Many mathematicians do not consider physicists' math proofs as rigorous or axiomatic because physics proves equations through experiment. The physicists do not like pure mathematics because they can not experimentally test it. A compromise has to be used like applied math.

Brian,

Thanks for your respect of my seat of the pant theorizing.

It's not that I question the precision of math, or physics. The problem, as I see it, is that the process of deducing laws of nature has some feedback issues which create errors in the process. "Law" is necessarily a static concept, yet reality is fundamentally dynamic. Unless this fact is constantly kept in mind, theorists seem to have an unconscious tendency to start describing a static reality that quickly veers off into nonsense. Obviously the example in this contest is time as a fourth dimension of space which leads to block time, which totally discounts the fundamental nature of the process by which energy and information are constantly being recycled, consumed, revised, etc. as every moment proceeds from the next. Thus this nonsense that the present, the only physical reality, is nothing special.

This first started occurring to me when I was much younger than you are and the insight popped into my mind that if I was actually adding two things together, I'd have one entity, not two. Say I have two apples. Unless I make applesauce I'm not really adding them together, so I say I have two sets of one apple each. I add them together, I have one set of two apples. The problem is that 1+1=2 is static. The equation isn't completed. We have the static objects, the nouns, but there is no verb. The process of addition isn't completed. Math and physics want to objectify and quantify everything and come up with immutable laws, but they miss the process. Think of "entangled particles." Are they really two apples sitting next to each other, or are they one energy set that contains two quanta? Think of quanta as drips of water, where the size is a function of surface tension and gravity. They all tend to be similar in size, but combine them and it's just a larger drop of water. Now are photons of light really immutable particles, or are they quanta of light whose energy is determined by physical properties of interaction which create units of identical size. Would light from distant galaxies really be as clear as it is, if it traveled all that way as individual entities, or is it like an expanding bubble of energy, which then quantizes out on contact with some physical property?

Since this concept that reality is more process than object has been accepted by other disciplines, that "form follows function," " nodes and network," and much of this thinking comes from popular notions of physics, such as how the idea of "relativity" is incorporated into the public consciousness, it seems somewhat anachronistic that physics seems to still assume motion and activity are simply the consequence of physical objects, not their basis and keep trying to find the most basic objects, yet each level of reduction only yields another level of process under the objects of the layer above. Now we have "strings" which have external vibration and internal dimension, but we think of them as "objects." Science is as determined to prove reality isn't a physical illusion as religion is to prove there is a moral ideal from which we fell.

Hi Brian,

I enjoyed your essay. I have also read some of your thread comments (but not all). I am very glad fqxi has set up these threads instead of just posting only the essays to view. It has allowed us to clarify and expand our ideas while putting them through a test for consistency, accuracy and possibility. I have found some of your thread comments to be just as valuable as you essay text. I see that you have been chatting with John Merryman. I not only enjoyed his essay but have found his questions and dialogue among various threads to be incredibly useful. John's insightful questioning has repeatedly drawn additional information out of authors that has been extremely helpful. Some contestants have written great essays but have barely said a word after submitting. I understand that shouldn't necessarily influence the judging process - but can you imagine how much less we would have gotten out of this if it were nothing but a bunch of essays? If there was a separate award for thread discussion (or contest MVP), I would give it to John.

Okay, my question for you is: Does a discrete fundamental object create time while interacting with other objects, or is it expressing what time it is in? Also -Do you have any thoughts on what the root cause(s) could be for the slowing of discrete fundamental interactions during increased velocity or entering a gravitational field? I apologize if this was covered on a previous post.

Thanks - CJ

I'm away for a few days.

Chris, Thanks for the compliments. I suspect not everyone has been as appreciative of my input.

John,

Chris is right your questions are important as all questions are. Most of the answers I think you would be able to satisfy yourself with some research. The laws of physics are not static the field is constantly growing and unifying ideas makes the subject simpler. I believe the static, dynamic questions you have as well as the process are satisfied with the function, f(x).

Your questions about photons touches nearly every branch such as: optics, E&M, quantum, relativity and thermodynamics. To understand entanglement you should start by researching the stern gerlach experiment. Also learn about mixed states, pure states, decoherence and the measurement problem. These subjects are advanced and if you like I could write them out and attach a PDF. I'll do my best to break down the advanced math but it will take some time.

Chris,

I like the comments section too because discussion of the problem with time is necessary for there to be a solution. When most people think about time they think it is fixed and in the background. This idea has always bothered me because I like to think of it from the smallest possible perspective.

I left the "object" loosely defined I would like to think that space itself it what becomes deranged for time. The number of dimensions fits nicely and there is no longer a fixed background. I think that the "objects" time is defined by the changing surroundings when it notices a change then it experiences a moment in time. Time for us would be the net effect of the random microstate changes that create an overall macroscopic effect we call time.

I think overall the word time should be replaced with change. Microscopically time is changing surroundings which may repeat, cycle and reverse. Macroscopically time is a change to higher amount of entropy.

I used the partial derangement to prevent simultaneity and it creates the macrostates. The twin paradox in special relativity is resolved because one twin undergoes an acceleration. Similarly the equivalence principle states that an accelerating body has the same relativistic effects as a body in a gravitational field. Relativity is about the forces being applied to a body and becomes useful in extreme situations like black holes. If I think of space being deranged then the change in space, the derangement, would be equivalent to a velocity. You would also be able to say this area experiences on overage x derangements relative to the y derangements somewhere else. The change in the relative amounts of x compared with y would be relativity and something similar to acceleration.

It is not the best of arguments and the ideas is still gestating. Also I have not studied the Dirac equation in depth for over a year. So relativistic quantum is a stretch for me right now. At the moment I'm focusing on entanglement.