Hi Marc,

You've done a remarkable job here. The scope of the essay is amazing; you touch on every idea I've ever come across on cosmic foundations and give us an insightful assessment in each case, and it's wonderfully readable. Unfortunately, the ideas you settle on are hard for me to appreciate philosophically.

First, the notion of a Maxiverse of all possible abstract structures doesn't seem relevant to me, because our universe is the opposite of abstract. It evidently instantiates many different kinds of mathematical structures, at many levels. But as I wrote in a comment to Cristi Stoica's fine essay, while mathematical abstraction lets us make explicit the general patterns in the way things operate, it's the unique instances of these patterns that constitute our empirical universe.

In a previous FQXi essay, I tried to make clear that there's even an essentially non-mathematical aspect in the language of physical equations. A quantity of energy is different from a quantity of momentum, or mass or electric charge. The fact that all the dozens of distinct observable parameters in physics can be represented by abstract symbols in equations doesn't make physics equivalent to pure mathematics.

My own interpretation of the fine-tuning of our fundamental physics is that it serves specifically to support the possibility of measurement. Gravity and electromagnetism and nuclear physics all help make possible the existence of stable material structures, without which there would be no "clocks and measuring rods," nor any way to measure any physical parameter. Without the finely-tuned cooperation of all these different mathematical structures, the universe would indeed be "nothing" - nothing observable or physically determinable.

In my current essay, I describe measurement as a form of random natural selection, creating new facts that help set up other situations in which new facts can become determinate. But my point here is that however the so-called "collapse" occurs, the particular result of a quantum measurement is not mathematically determined. To me, this seems to make the concrete facts established by accidental events more basic than the mathematical structures that arise from their statistics.

So that's one issue I have with your argument. The other is that I don't like treating "consciousness" in the old Cartesian fashion, imagining it as somehow emerging separately from the material universe... or even co-emerging with it. There is no doubt something that transcends materiality in human consciousness, but as my essay shows, I think it can be understood well enough through evolutionary processes. And again, I don't think the concept of "abstract structure" captures what's essential to the uniqueness of each person's mind, any more than it does what's essential to our unique universe.

But though I disagree with your philosophical preferences, I admit that the scheme of co-emergence is an ingenious and imaginative solution to a "hard" problem you've considered carefully from many angles - so it ranks high above the general trend of speculation in these contest essays.

I think you came closest to the truth at the beginning, with the idea of a "strange loop" approach to foundations, as an alternative to "straight chain" explanation. This captures the recursive character that I take as the key to foundational processes in physics, as well as in biology and the human mind... none of which seem to be built on a "self-evident, rock-bottom" kind of foundation.

Also at the end, you make a nice statement - "It is as if physics is trying to tell us that the world arises out of the point of view of single observers, even if they do in the end form a community that observes a single unified reality." This also relates to my discussion of human consciousness. If I may quote myself: "Each human consciousness evolves its own universe... I emphasize this, because unless we recognize how isolated we are, in our own minds, we can't appreciate what our communication software does, or how remarkably it works."

Thanks for an excellent and well thought-out contribution -

Conrad

    Dear Marc,

    i just read your essay and it is quite interesting, since you name the main problems when trying to identify the fundamental level of reality.

    An additional problem is to explain where the necessity of logic does come from. Surely, in the MUH, it comes from maths - or the other way round i would say. Since logic's main ingredient is consistence, the main relation between mathematical relationships being able to facilitate conscious observers and the ability of these observers to contemplate abstract concepts such as 'consistency' at all, should be again, consistence. Is this a strange loop or just a tautology? It seems to me that it could be both, if we only could identify which mathematical relationships that are consistent, must necessarily lead to conscious observers.

    I liked your remark that all of maths has zero informational content. This surely must be understood as an epistemological statement, since conscious observers aren't able to contemplate all of maths - they are finite entities. So it seems to me that the notion of zero informational content hinges on the use of infinities. Moreover, if physical worlds and conscious observers co-emerge, so has maths (towards infinity?). If maths is an atemporal realm of all abstractions, it leaves the question open of how its main ingredient, namely consistency can be defined globally as its main ingredient, but not only locally. Surely, not all of maths must necessarily be consistent, but if so, how can we call these inconsistent parts of ultimate reality furthermore 'maths'?

    "Could it be that, when we worry about the proliferation of deluded observers, we try to push our reasoning too far away from our observed reality, into a realm where it no longer applies? In the same way, could the dead-ends we have been encountering over the past decades in fundamental physics (the failure to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity, the proliferation of solutions in the landscape of M-theory) be interpreted as signs that we are nearing the edge of our patch of lawfulness in the space of all possibilities?".

    Interesting point of view, one that i myself adopt in my essay. Furthermore in several comments of mine i emphasize that although we are nearing the edge of our patch of lawfullness, due to principal considerations on consistency, logic and the assumed rationality of nature we should not conclude that right beyond these edges the most fundamental level of reality is revealed. One has to ask further where chaos and randomness comes from. If it exists, did it spring into existence 'randomly' from nothing - thereby self-confirming itself as the ultimate reality? This can't be the case, since this would presuppose logic and its main ingredient - namely consistency. So, if we assume randomness, coming from nothing, as the ultimate level of reality, we end up with the exact opposite, namely not randomness, but the necessity of consistence (and therefore logic). Furthermore, there has to be some law that determines what can be possible and not (to at all speak about the full space of possibilities).

    I prefer a picture of ultimate reality where our known logic is just a subset of other meaning-producing realms. In plain text, one could describe the main realm there as God, equating him with zero information, since epistemologically *and* ontologically, there could well exist things about we even do not know that we do not know them.

    I'll give you a high rating for having mentioned several hard problems instead of ignoring them and instead just facilitating a consistent explanation scheme without the latter having the property of necessarily meeting reality.

    Best wishes,

    Stefan Weckbach

      • [deleted]

      Hi, Marc,

      I have read your essay (twice by now) and feel truly grateful. I am not sure I see the connection with the topic of "goal oriented behavior", other than conceiving intentionality as one out of many properties of conscious observers. But I got a wonderful ontological view of the world, that gives me a lot of substance to entertain my thoughts - which is even better! I have been cogitating about these ideas for a few days now. I would like to share my thoughts with you, so you can tell me whether I got something wrong.

      1) I tend to think that our minds evolved in a world that obeys the laws of physics. The co-emergent hypothesis is compatible with such a picture in which minds and the laws of physics evolved together. It seems, however, that it does not require evolution, at least, not as an indispensable necessity. Out of all the possible ensembles of computations, co-emergence postulates that it is possible to cut out a system that can give rise to a compatible pair of observer(s)+physical laws. The existence of this pair, however, is not obliged to emerge through a gradual build-up process, like Darwinian evolution. In fact, Darwinian evolution postulates first the laws of physics (be them our laws, or different ones), and only after (if possible) the emergence of observers. I cannot help imagining, however, that within the co-emergent hypothesis almost all pairs of observer(s) + physical environment are closed loops with no build up history. They can well exist right from the start (with no evolution), as Escher's mutually drawing hands. Does this make sense?

      2) Let us assume that we (as we are) and our physical world (with the specific laws we are familiar with) co-emerged throughout evolution. The emergence process could well have happened at a given level, which is fairly macroscopic, and could be, up to a certain degree, independent of the details of what happens at truly microscopic levels. Could this be an explanation why quantum mechanics is so weird? Could one argue that it does not really matter how things behave down there, we can still emerge as observers, and our perceived world can still emerge as the observed reality? Under this premise, the blurryness of the quantum level would reflect the fact that our existence does not depend on decisions taken so far beneath us, so it is ok if just anything happens down there (within certain bounds, of course, because we need to ensure the emergence of the proper macroscopic level). This is probably the same thing you state at the end of page 7, I just rephrase it here... because I would like to know whether I got you right.

      3) At a certain point you state "our world is just too regular" for the maxiverse. I also have the feeling that it is too regular for the co-emergence hypothesis. All these theories have one truly elegant aspect: they are founded in irrefutable truths. And they also have a disappointing aspect: they explain little of the characteristics of our world. The co-emergence may explain more than the maxiverse, but at least as I get from your essay, the properties of our world do not seem to be a necessary consequence of co-emergence. Our world seems to rather be only one out of many worlds compatible with co-emergence, and the size of the compatible set of worlds is unclear. I guess that in order to make progress we need to

      a) make up our minds on what we expect of a theory. Indisputable grounds, and generic properties of the derived worlds? Or capricious grounds, and narrow properties of the derived worlds?

      b) work out the requirements that observers have on their universes, and universes have on observers, to determine more narrowly the characteristics of the pairs observer(s) + physics that can co-emerge. It would be fantastic if only our universe were possible, leaving only room for arbitrary things to happen at truly tiny or truly huge scales - explaining our confusion at these levels!

      Thanks for the good read!

      inés.

        sorry, it was me up there (hopefully logged in this time). Inés Samengo.

        Dear Marc,

        Thanks for reading and responding as you did.

        My approach is essentially based on my analysis of experience. I believe your approach is based on the movement of physics toward the abstract, largely driven by confusion about the wave function. As you note in table 1: "it's been almost a century and we still don't know!" As I indicated, I believe this is due to errors of interpretation, and I am working to elucidate some of these errors, leaving only the "good stuff".

        I see some confusion about consciousness, probably starting with "mind/minds". You say "Mind" might be too complex to be the fundamental level, while I think the field is universal, physically real, and simple. I do not think mind as conscious awareness is amenable to mathematical (or any other) description, but I do believe it's interaction with the material world is mathematically defined. In my view it switches the meaning of words to go from mind as "universal consciousness field" (with affinity to panpsychism) to "sane mind" versus "insane mind". The little-m 'mind' is a locally stable (or 'resonant') field awareness of local physical brain/neural net. The awareness is of local brain structures, some of which may be physically (organic) diseased and some of which are 'psychologically' diseased (mistreatment or misinformation). Each is undoubtedly unique! This is a different meaning from the big-M 'Mind' as universal field. I find the treatment of this somewhat inconsistent in your essay.

        You say "for all we know, free will and the ability to act intentionally towards goals might be basic attributes of consciousness", whereas I define consciousness as "awareness plus volition/free will". In my model 'goals' arise from 'intelligence", which is the local interaction of the field with physical brains/dynamic logical structure. Goals have nothing to do with the fundamental consciousness field, only with local "resonances" or local 'minds'. When you say "maybe we're all one mind anyway", the "we" includes the local brains, while the "one mind" is the universal consciousness field. It may not be a category error, but it needs explanation.

        As you noted, we both agree that mind/consciousness has an essential role to play in any ultimate theory of the fundamental nature of reality! From your excellent essay I believe your instincts are right on. I hope you continue to evolve your table 1. I've seen suggestions on your comments page for additional rows or columns.

        Thanks for interacting with me. I enjoyed your essay and believe it should rank higher. This troll business of '1's is depressing.

        My very best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Marc,

        Quoting you out of context:

        "most conscious observers that are sophisticated enough to RUN essay contests about the fundamental nature of reality find themselves in worlds that are surprisingly large, long-lived and extremely regular."

        I would change this to:

        "most conscious observers that are sophisticated enough to (COMPETE IN) essay contests about the fundamental nature of reality find themselves in worlds that are surprisingly large, long-lived and extremely regular."

        You and I .... the most interesting construct :)

        1. Your essay examined the universe of current physical theory and presented a compelling theory of emergence. And it was funnier than my essay Ha Ha. Amazing!

        2. You categorized the most advanced and sometimes controversial thought and presented it so that it could be visualized. Putting Max in his place, so to speak :) You have my vote and more!

        3. Thanks for visiting my essay and your encouraging remarks. (I ordered the book "How Physics Makes Us Free")

        4. Changing the subject.... Judging from your background in astro-physics, I invite you to visit a calculation I made (straightforward math) that I should not have been able to make about Mercury's precession. If anyone can make sense of it I believe you can. http://prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/view/1188/1163

        Appreciate your being a member of FQXi.org

        Don Limuti

          Dear Marc Séguin

          I appreciate your essay. You spent a lot of effort to write it. If you believed in the principle of identity of space and matter of Descartes, then your essay would be even better. There is not movable a geometric space, and is movable physical space. These are different concepts.

          I inform all the participants that use the online translator, therefore, my essay is written badly. I participate in the contest to familiarize English-speaking scientists with New Cartesian Physic, the basis of which the principle of identity of space and matter. Combining space and matter into a single essence, the New Cartesian Physic is able to integrate modern physics into a single theory. Let FQXi will be the starting point of this Association.

          Don't let the New Cartesian Physic disappear! Do not ask for himself, but for Descartes.

          New Cartesian Physic has great potential in understanding the world. To show potential in this essay I risked give "The way of the materialist explanation of the paranormal and the supernatural" - Is the name of my essay.

          Visit my essay and you will find something in it about New Cartesian Physic. After you give a post in my topic, I shall do the same in your theme

          Sincerely,

          Dizhechko Boris

          Dear Marc,

          thank you for an interesting essay! Although your approach differs from mine very much in scale, there's a similarity in method: we both look to avoid the paradox of 'turtles all the way down' by positing a kind of self-referential (what some call 'autopoietic') element.

          I find your attempt at deriving the existence of a lawful world from Tegmark's mathematical universe intriguing---although I ultimately disagree with Tegmark's ideas, I decided to not let that influence my rating of your essay, instead concentrating on what you do with the idea, how well you argue your case, and so on.

          Your figure 4 is a very impressive collection of (at first blush) disparate ideas that nevertheless seem to point towards a common trend; if you've read the essay of Philip Gibbs in this contest, you'll note that he pulls along similar lines. I think perhaps the oldest progenitor of this sort of 'relativized existence' thinking is in the Buddhist concept of 'dependent origination'---in particular in Nagarjuna's writings. Everything is ultimately 'empty', that is, has no intrinsic nature; instead, its nature derives only from mutual relationships, as in that between the observer and the world (this is superficial, but I think a more detailed reading supports a deeper relationship between such ideas and modern algorithmic descriptions).

          However, grand metaphysical speculation that it is, I'm not really sure I understand how your essay actually approaches the contest's main theme---namely, how goal-directed behavior emerges. Apologies if I missed something crucial, but as far as I can see, you briefly raise the problem in your 'hard problems'-table, but seem unsure of the answer ('Might be...') yourself. I'd be very grateful for some elaboration on this point!

          Anyway, I wish you all the best for the contest.

          Cheers,

          Jochen

            Marc -

            This is by far the best essay I have yet read in this contest - a coherent and systematic effort that acknowledges the "hard problem of foundations" and the integral role of "strange loops."

            An observation: Your table outlines how five different starting points answer six hard problems. The middle three (mind, physics and math) correspond to the Penrose three worlds. None of these can be comprehensive as they are (per Penrose) co-dependent. Only the far left and far right columns purport to offer a comprehensive response. Obviously, you are presenting the "co-emergentist" column in the most favorable light consistent with the thesis of your essay. I suggest that if you were to present the far left column in a similarly sympathetic and enthusiastic manner, we might find the two extremes to be equally effective in addressing the hard problems. These then might be seen as two related poles - linked in a strange loop. One drawing on nothing as its inspiration (the nothingness of "all-of-math"), the other drawing on everything (the infinity of a divine uncreated agent).

            You have speculated, "one can argue that goals, intentions and free will, even if they are still globally meaningless, somehow acquire more significance." From the alternate pole, one could argue that the world is filled by goals, intention and free will - acting through a process that harnesses the mindlessness of mathematical laws.

            As you have named your speculation "ISAAC", one might name the alternative "ISHMAEL" - Intentionally Specified Historical Meaningfulness Activated by Emergence from Love". Both are children of Abraham (which loosely means - the father is exalted). In my essay "The How and The Why of Emergence and Intention", I suggest that it is impossible rationally to determine which is the rightful heir to the truth.

            I do, however, believe that one's choice of nothing or everything as a source of inspiration can have a radical influence on one's view of life. Over the past century, the "nothing" inspiration has been in the ascendent. A does of everything would be helpful, perhaps....

            Sincere regards - George Gantz

              Dear Conrad, Stefan, Inés, Jochen and George,

              Thank you for all the insightful comments about my essay that you left in the posts above... all within the last 24 hours! Fortunately, I had already read and annotated each of your esssys, so I just need to put all this together in order to reciprocate on your essays' threads. I will also respond directly to the comments you made in the posts above... by tomorrow or the day after at most. My "problem" this year is that so many of the essays I read bring new ideas and references that are pertinent to my hypotheis of "co-emergentism"... I say to myself that I will start by exploring these ideas and references further before I comment on the essays I read, but time is running out and I now have to hurry to leave all the comments I want to make before the voting period ends...

              Talk to you further soon!

              Marc

              Correction: You presented a compelling theory of co-emergence (not emergence).....

              I am delighted that many FQXi.org essayists discovered your diamond of an essay essay and lifted it out of the coal bin. ....About time!

              Don Limuti

              Dear Marc,

              I would just like to congratulate you for your very interesting essay. But I would also like to congratulate you on your approach to this contest. Indeed, I like the way you are genuinely involved in replying to other contestants in a sincere and direct way.

              I thank you for your time and I wish you all the best.

              Cheers,

              Patrick

                (Duplicate of a post I left on the thread of Conrad Dale Johnson's excellent essay, Three Technologies: On the Accidental Origins of Meaning )

                Dear Conrad,

                I'm really spending too much time this year exploring the ideas and the references I find in people's essays instead of responding and leaving comments! I started the evening intending to write up my comments on your essay, but as they relate to your previous work (that I am quite a fan of, having stumbled upon your "Physics Forum" and "The World from Inside" pieces while researching this year's essay), I started by re-looking at them. I also read the posts in your thread, got intrigued by the comment you left to Don Foster about electromagnetism as a "fossil", read your "It from Bit" FQXi essay... Wow! I'm really impressed... It is unfortunate that I had read all your previous FQXi essays EXCEPT this one: in my essay this year, I almost put some your work in my references, but if I had read this essay before, I would have done so for sure. As your comments on my essay make it clear, there are many apparent incompatibilities in our frameworks, but I think they are due in great part to the fact that we define "abstraction" and "mathematical" in different ways. I am also willing to admit that my usage of these terms is not optimal. I may "evolve" towards the use of "informational" and "relational" instead...

                It's getting late, so I will be getting back to you with more detailed comments and questions about your essay. (There are a few other essays I must leave comments on before Friday, so it may take a few days.) In the meantime, I just scored your current essay (which I really liked, by the way), with the hope this will increase its "visibility" in the rankings and encourage more people to read it, comment on it and rate it.

                Marc

                Dear Stefan,

                Thank you for reading my essay and leaving such insightful comments. In the end, I do believe that the ultimate explanation must be in the form of a tautological strange loop... or it would not be an ultimate explanation!

                >> If maths is an atemporal realm of all abstractions, it leaves the question open of how its main ingredient, namely consistency can be defined globally as its main ingredient, but not only locally. Surely, not all of maths must necessarily be consistent, but if so, how can we call these inconsistent parts of ultimate reality furthermore 'maths'?

                Indeed, is there such a thing as inconsistent math? Since I posted my essay, I have gradually come to the realization that "mathematical" or "computational" might not be the best way to qualify the fundamental level of reality. Even "abstract" may give the wrong impression. I just learned that there is such a thing as "neutral monism", where the basic level of reality is of one "unspecified" nature... If we need to be more specific, maybe "relational" could be an interesting way to qualify it: instead of the "Infinite Set of All Abstract Computations" (ISAAC), how about the "Universal Set of All Relations"? (although USAR is much less memorable as an acronym...)

                You also make interesting comments about randomness, not-randomness and God... I will elaborate further when I comment your essay on your thread!

                Marc

                Dear Inés,

                In my opinion, your essay is one of the two or three best that I read in this year's contest, and I was planning to comment on it next when I got all these comments almost at the same time a few days ago. I am honored that you found my essay interesting and glad you got to me first!

                You understood really well what I was aiming for, as your astute reformulations indicate. Since ISAAC simply is, in a timeless/atemporal way, the coherent worlds within it can have a structure that can be described as an evolutionary story within time, but of course they also simply exist "right from the start" as self-defined lawful observers/physical world systems.

                You correctly interpreted the speculative idea I tried to convey at the bottom of page 7. Since our level of reality is "multiply realizable" at the reductionist levels below atoms, the "blurriness" of the quantum world could very well be what is to be expected! (This is not an airtight argument, but it's similar to the claim made by some that the fact the quantum world is quantized meshes well with the idea that the universe is a digital computation/simulation!)

                I really like how you put the dilemma that we have as metaphysicists/physicists: do we want a theory with "indisputable" (I would say non-arbitrary) grounds, but only argue about generic properties of the derived worlds? Or do we accept "capricious" (arbitrary) grounds, but aim to explain the particular narrow properties of the derived worlds? Of course, we should do both: the foundational questions community has room for both metaphysicists and physicists! :)

                You mention the eventuality of being able to show that only our universe is possible, leaving room for arbitrary things to happen at truly tiny or truly huge scales. This is of course what Einstein meant when he said that the thing that he most wanted to know, was if God had a choice when he made the Universe. I don't think that our Universe (or even our type of universe) exhausts all that can (and must, in my view) exist. I would be satisfied if we could just show that our type of universe can be shown to be "reasonably likely" within a system of explanations that does not take regular, pre-determined laws as a "brute fact" that cannot be explained.

                I will elaborate further when I comment your essay on your essay's thread.

                Thank you for such interesting questions and comments!

                Marc

                Dear Marc

                Thank you for your kind and measured response to what must have seemed to you an outrageous essay. The riverboat floating in the sky is a rather imaginative way to convey compression of space in a moving frame. Artistic license!

                Everything you said is reasonable except your claim that I think everybody in the world is wrong. Not really, perhaps only the point-photon concept I consider 'wrong'. That has been experimentally proven by my friend Eric Reiter but in his case too neglect and doubts have been his lot instead of people simply repeating his experiments to see if his claims are true and he deserves a Nobel Prize.

                The other things I find fault with are "right, but for the wrong reasons" and they often contradict each other. Take SR for example its mathematics 'works' and people use it to calculate GPS, and it is exact - but flexible space and time depending on a passing observer taken as a fundamental fact of nature billions of years before intelligent observers existed? I do not think so.

                QM too 'works' and is exact - it is used to design lasers that obey theory to many decimal points but the convenience of accepting mathematical probability should not be interpreted as a fundamental of nature itself, and for reasons I have explained in my various essays and writings.

                GR 'works' in predicting black holes and gravitational lensing - but since it is based on SR it becomes much more unwieldy than it needs be. I proposed a local density of the ether, and if that 'works' equally well why not adopt that instead of GR? I have calculated that in a dipole's gravitational field light bends just as Newton and others before Einstein said it would.. so why hold GR as absolutely sacred and cannot be replaced by something simpler and physically more reasonable?

                Bell's Theorem has been attacked by much more qualified people than I have - the literature is full of their papers. I think that the hole in the Bell's argument (ditto in Einstein's assumed 'hidden variables') is to suppose that probability exists in the entangled photons or particle to start with. The probability that appears in Aspect et al's measurements is simply the random phases in the sensing atoms and nothing else. I cannot prove that but that is what I think.

                Of course I may be wrong but I did not write anything that I have not thought about long and hard. As long as my essay makes people think it is successful as far as I am concerned. Physics is broken and needs to be fixed. If a tiny fraction of effort and expenditure that is spent buttressing old theories that have reached virtual dead-ends is spent developing, testing and simulating new approaches, perhaps physics can proceed to unification and new discoveries that are impossible now.

                I am trying to simulate my model, but I do not have much energy or time at my age (74) and state of health (chemotherapy). Knowing that perhaps in my anxiousness to convince people to take up my ideas I panicked and was rather less diplomatic in phrasing my objections than I should have. If so apologies!

                Good luck in your work and in the contest

                Vladimir

                Marc, thanks.

                Despite my critical comments above, I very much hoped you would read my essay, and now I have more than I could have asked for. It means a lot, coming from someone who knows the whole range of "big picture" ideas and can think so clearly at that level.

                Looking forward to your comments -- if not by Friday, my email address in in the essay.

                Conrad

                Hi -- May I add a comment on Inés' point (2) above? She wrote:

                >> Could this be an explanation why quantum mechanics is so weird? Could one argue that it does not really matter how things behave down there, we can still emerge as observers, and our perceived world can still emerge as the observed reality? Under this premise, the blurryness of the quantum level would reflect the fact that our existence does not depend on decisions taken so far beneath us, so it is ok if just anything happens down there (within certain bounds, of course, because we need to ensure the emergence of the proper macroscopic level).

                I think something like this is right. That is, at the quantum level it usually doesn't matter to anything just what the position or momentum of some electron is, and in that case QM says these values are indeterminate. There get to be determinate values just insofar as there's a context of interactions that measures them. Defining that context in physical terms is hard, though, for reasons I focus on in my essay. But I don't think the answer is to jump up to the level of our perception.

                The thing is, quantum indeterminacy is not just blurriness... there are many levels of structure in the statistical wave-function. All that a measurement adds is a random selection. That's important, just as natural selection is important in biology. But random events are only "selection" if there's something useful to select. The "collapse" of the wave function can only support a macroscopic world because it's selecting from a set of possibilities that are somehow highly structured - evolved? - to help other measurements happen, in the macroscopic environment.

                In any case, the basic idea of "co-emergence" is certainly relevant. In biology, the organism co-evolves with its living environment, and as Inés' essay points out, the line between the two disappears when we take an objective view. In physics, measuring any variable depends on other measurements of other variables. And I think simplest explanation for the Born rule - why probabilities are squared, in computing the outcome of a measurement - is that at bottom, every "collapse" is a mutual selection between a thing and its context, so the same outcome has to be randomly chosen from each side of the interaction.

                Thanks to you both -- Conrad

                Marc,

                Disappointed with your essay because I expected it to be more QBist. Page 1 and most of page 2 were OK. Sorry, but from then on, my opinion is that the essay descended into illogic e.g.:

                Well, there might be a way to make "nothing" into a suitable foundation, by considering something that is equivalent to nothing: the infinite ensemble of all abstractions. An abstraction is something, like a circle or the number 42, that exists without having to be embodied in a concrete way.

                ...the fact that abstractions are the most fundamental thing you can possibly imagine, and that the ensemble of all of them contains no information, makes them the ideal foundation for a theory of the Universe.

                Suppose that the ISAAC is the basis of all existence, and that it generates the Maxiverse. The hard problem of foundations is solved...

                Consciousness, with its power of agency and volition, emerges out of a physical level of description where interactions take place according to "mindless" laws...

                Dear Marc Seguin,

                I must confess that your essay is one of the most provocative ones in this contest, there are a few others as well, one in particular by Weckbach. Your statements are in double quotes below.

                I see infinity lingering in several expressions, such as: "the MUH implies an infinite multiverse that contains every possible physical reality and generates every possible conscious experience.", "Infinite Set of All Abstract Computation (ISAAC)" etc. Infinity as a concept helps in many awkward situations while constructing such theories as you attempt. But infinite number of any reality, or object, even infinite computations (running in parallel), that is expected to be realized or realizable, places the argument in serious jeopardy. And I am not talking only about lack of our mental abilities to conceive them. As we know, even values like sum of all integers, or even sum of infinite sequences of 1, and -1, can result in indeterminate territory, depending on how we arrange them. Constructing a mathematical argument leading to indeterminate contexts, and leaving at that does not pose a problem. But as I said, if that is expected to be realized in any manner, I do not know how one can get around such conceptual vacuity in reality. Moreover, the moment we allow indeterminism of any kind at any level, mathematics loses its absolute position to be the most fundamental cause of everything.

                One may arrive at this conclusion in several other ways. In brief, an universe based entirely on absolute determinism of mathematics cannot come into existence, since a deterministic universe allows back tracing, and at no point of time an universe could emerge from null reality. On the other hand, if it always existed, then the definition of eternity demands that there could be nothing that has not happened in the past. Such an universe could only be cyclic or non-deterministic. The moment we accept indeterminacy in the consequence, mathematics gets displaced from being the ultimate cause of all reality.

                A computation necessarily means processing of information. Information and even processing (computation) requires a physical basis. Information has not existence if not associated with physical states, such as bits, or neural states, or for that matter any state. Similarly, no processing can occur without interactions that result in change of states. A computation without such an association can only be imagined as a reference to the logical steps in mathematics. But then, there is no time element to control the steps, the steps can be thought of as having executed all at once. I am unable to fathom the statement, "Even though the ISAAC is atemporal, in the physical universes that exist within it, conscious observers perceive the flow of time: the concepts of causation and causality can be applied." On the other hand, if such a physical basis is provided for computation to take place, then the physical basis already exists, we do not have to create one. It must have a degree of determinacy to execute information.

                Of course, one may allow mathematics to step down a bit from its high pedestal of absolute determinism / specificity / predictability, by allowing a limited indeterminism, then two points immediately emerge. First, mathematics does not remain the sole determinator, an element of some other reality must also be included at the root of all creation as you too have attempted to include. Second, we will have no forceful need for maxiverse, as an Universe is logically complete within its limits of indeterminism.

                As I have attempted to work out the emergence of all elements related to perception and purposes from the fundamental reality of information that is a natural outcome of natural causation, the consciousness does not remain the most fundamental element of creation. But since natural causation, even with limited determinism, still remains a required element of the physical reality, we may only have to work out a possibility of emergence of causality. The process suggested by you, co-emergence of a cycle of A enforcing / supporting B, B supporting C, C supporting A, does resonate with me, but without consciousness being one of the elements. I suggest, evolving determinism from non-determinism should be used to the maximum, which has no problems with origin, time, and several other constraints. All one has to achieve is that unless sustainable level of determinism originates, it does not sustain by definition.

                The title of Fig.4 is, "The co-emergence of co-emergentism". This is nice, even co-emergentism is not a fundamental requirement, it also emerges from something. But then, its emergence requires co-emergence. Fantastic ! In Indian mythology, at one point, one of the incarnations of ultimate lord Vishnu, Krishna, was confronted with an argument, that one could understand that all of the universe was created by You, but how did 'You' happen? And He says, "I am, that happened on its own". But it can also be interpreted as, "I am creation of my own self". Finished, no further argument is required. The likable point is that the thinker, philosopher, writer, Ved Vyas, who articulated this argument, must have been tormented by the question of origin of everything, and having found no escape, created this fantastic argument to achieve closure. So, co-emergentism creates itself, and then everything is taken care of. In this contest, people do not seem to appreciate humor, therefore, I am making it upfront clear that relating the story from Bhagvad Gita was in plain humor, no other motive.

                "Emergence is usually understood in terms of properties of a system that exist at a higher level of description and have no equivalent at a lower level:". I have discussed in my essay the specific logical construction of the emergence from the elemental properties (semantics), where the emerged property is not a part of any of the elements.

                "The hard problem of foundations is solved, but we now run into another one: the hard problem of lawfulness." Let me presuppose the meaning of the term 'lawfulness' -- is it requirement of a system or an object to fall under certain physical laws?

                "Consciousness, with its power of agency and volition, emerges out of a physical level of description where interactions take place according to 'mindless' laws, while the rigid laws that obey the physical interactions are, in some real sense, an emerging consequence of the existence of a community of conscious observers that share between themselves a coherent story about a lawful and stable world."

                I cannot imagine easily a more fine / thin line of an articulation that brings in the conscious element to share, exchange, participate, and effect changes in the physical world, while leaving the power of agency with volition to emerge from the 'rigid mindless laws'. Either, it brings out that remarkable missing distinction which resolves the intertwined complexity into straight forward clarity of understanding, or it indicates a path that must be avoided in the trust that Nature may not be so intertwined and mixed up ! Given two factors, 1) lack of any reliable proposal for the existence so far, and 2) the author's choice of co-emergence, such a proposal can be accepted.

                "The tension between an objective, third-person description of the world, and a subjective, first-person description, is of course at the heart of the difficulties physicists have been having, for almost a century now." Could I suggest that if we take the 'information', in place of consciousness, naturally associated with each description of states of physical entities, then we can make clear distinction between the first person and third person world view? Unfortunately, it is not fully discussed in my essay submitted here.

                In Table.1, the author's attempt seems to be to show the ease and readiness with which Co-emergentism nearly resolves most hard problems, but except the first hard problem, the God First has turned out to offer most simple resolutions! So, after all, that may be the reason for its such attractiveness among general masses. May be, the 'desire of justice to the self' should have been also added into the list of problems to convincingly exhibit, how miserably the God First solution fails, and how equipotent the rest of the solutions are.

                Rajiv