Hi Sara,

I read your beautiful submission and I am impressed, except for it's one fatal flaw. We don't have a good definition of life yet. Until that definition exists the things that fall under the definition of life but aren't get to have "aims and intentions" as you say only life has. A burning match falls under some definitions of life. Are you saying a burning match has "aims and intentions"? Your whole paragraph on the Yeast cell cycle could replace the word Yeast with burning match and still have the same outcome although a different figure 1.

You have done something that I have never seen before in an FQXi contest. You cited as a reference another contestant in this contest. The contestant is Erik P. Hoel that you cite in your references. You didn't cite his submission to this contest.

Anyway, good luck in the contest.

Jim Akerlund

5 days later

Sara -

Well done. Your score should be much higher.

If I had read your essay before writing mine, I would certainly have cited it! :)

Best of luck - George Gantz (The How and The Why of Intention)

Dear Sara Walker

You write:

»If deterministic physical laws describe all of reality, there is no "room at the bottom" for macro systems (such as living entities) to do causal work.«

This is one of the best sentences in this contest.

You write also

»an explicit measure of how a whole can be "more than the sum of its parts". Briefly, a system is integrated if when cut in parts it looses cause-effect power«

I claim that consciousness is everywhere, although in the most elementary form, this is panpsychism. I claim also that the smallest units of consciousness arise at every wavefunction collapse.

We can also add that entangelment is the simplest example where connection between two particles gives information, which do not exist in particles alone.

Therefore I suspect that top-down causation and quantum consciousness are two aspects of the same phenomenon.

As a question, how much information is hidden in one monocrystall? How this information is larger than in atoms alone?

More in my essay and in other my links.

Best regards, Janko Kokošar

Sara Walker,

This is a fantastic essay on the emergence of purpose. It is one of the best I have read; right up there with John Ellis.

Here comes the amateur lumbering into the conversation, way over his head. All of the following statements are guesses. They should be prefaced with: "Could it be that..." I haven't even begun to parse it all, if I ever will. I see a lot of additional homework ahead. A deeper understanding of information theory is definitely in order. I see a lot of good leads in your list of references. Can you recommend a good reference book on Boolean networks?

First off, I think we both can take for granted, the need for top-down causality in any sensible description of goal oriented behavior. I really like your statement: 'it is not a goal if it is not internally programed.' This line of thinking nicely decouples the word goal from my notion of teleological bias, which require sentience and places it earlier in the evolution of the causal chain.

I find it useful to slightly redefine several of the most common words used in these discussions. These are phenomenal definitions: a sentient being is nothing more than an individuated organism, which is connected to and reacts to the variations in its environment by way of receptor and proprioceptor nerve endings. By this definition a worm can be sentient. Intelligence is the quantitative and qualitative capacity to process and organize information. By this definition, the computer Watson is highly intelligent. Consciousness is the subjective phenomenal experience of the qualia of sentience as a first-person observation of the present moment. An agenda somehow comes out of this and presents itself directly to the subject. I generally try to avoid the use of the word intentional as it can be confused with the less descriptive philosophical term of art denoting the content or object of consciousness. This definition is unfortunate. So much of our language developed around the requirement of encoding the aspects of dealing with other living things in our environment. Consequently it has acquired all of the teleological trappings of directed, volitional goal oriented behavior which come to be applied to the behavior of inanimate objects in an attempt to explain them. Nature abhors a vacuum.

From my remarks to John Ellis on his essay:

Purpose is something we see within ourselves and see in others. As embodied minds, we take its existence for granted as part of the requirement for the evolution of life. And like consciousness, it seems to resist a reductionistic explanation. Existence, sentience, consciousness and the nature and mechanism behind the collapse of the wavefunction remain elusive and mysterious.

It would occur to us in retrospect that the veracity, completeness and therefore the predictive power of this internalized observation of reality would serve an organism well. But this would beg the question: how, on the evolutionary trail, did an organism's acquisition of an agenda to extract meaningful and relevant information for survival arise? Somehow, it must be connected to existential threat. But how does the organism come to sense that existential threat? My simplistic answer is that an organism's nerve endings, no matter how primitive, provide the initial feedback. All sentient beings have skin in the game. But there still remains the problem of how that feedback might be converted into consciousness and the sensation of jeopardy. {Insert hand waving here} Once the sense of jeopardy has been detected, the obvious back reaction would be a teleological bias to fulfill the dual agendas: stay in the energy flux and avoid destruction. This would go for the tubeworms living near a steam vent or, as more neural circuitry is thrown at the problem in service of this agenda, an investment banker competing for her share of the billions in bonuses available to maintain herself far from equilibrium.

Now back to your teleologically more neutral idea of 'goal' which can occur within any intelligent information processing system sans sentience. This brings me closer to spanning the explanatory gap between the goal seeking capabilities of a single biological structure and the entire organism. If it can be had just in the structure, it might provide the bridge needed to arrive at its final destination within the organism.

There is a wonderful description of microtubules in The Quantum Brain by Jeffery Satinover where alternating rows of alpha and beta dimers join at a seam which is offset by three rows. This configuration would lend itself to the progressive evolution of cellular automatons winding their way down and continuing their deterministic evolution at the seam just as programmed cellular automatons go off the screen on one side only to appear again on the other side. And no, I am not advocating for OOR. The decoherence time associated with ambient temperatures would seem to rule that possibility out. But at the same time, I would not totally rule it out.

Best regards,

Jim Stanfield

Dear Sirs!

Physics of Descartes, which existed prior to the physics of Newton returned as the New Cartesian Physic and promises to be a theory of everything. To tell you this good news I use spam.

New Cartesian Physic based on the identity of space and matter. It showed that the formula of mass-energy equivalence comes from the pressure of the Universe, the flow of force which on the corpuscle is equal to the product of Planck's constant to the speed of light.

New Cartesian Physic has great potential for understanding the world. To show it, I ventured to give "materialistic explanations of the paranormal and supernatural" is the title of my essay.

Visit my essay, you will find there the New Cartesian Physic and make a short entry: "I believe that space is a matter" I will answer you in return. Can put me 1.

Sincerely,

Dizhechko Boris

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Sara,

This was an enjoyable read. Thank you.

I am curious regarding anti-accretion ... I believe that one of Saturn's moons has a very active volcano that spews material at a velocity that exceeds the escape velocity of that moon. It is thought to be the source of the ring material ... I think this might be an exception to the tech civilization idea you present early.

I did not realize that yeast cells were so useful to experimenters ... I've got some working for me right now brewing beer:-) The robustness of the states that you describe is interesting and a little surprising.

The use of an attractor in state-space is an idea presented in another essay that I have read ... it makes good sense I think and should lend itself to a mathematical formalism.

You are absolutely correct in that innovation leads to exponential innovation provided that there are enough innovators present ... it's almost to the point of being crazy fast.

The ability to specify the (integrated) system boundaries is a feature in another essay also. This also makes sense. The system becomes inoperative if any critical piece is removed.

I was not able to infer the meaning of Rule 150. What is that?

I did not fully understand what you presented but it was an informative essay.

Best Regards and Good Luck,

Gary Simpson

Thanks so much for the detailed response Sara! Really appreciate it, and you did a good job clarifying it.

"To describe life, I'd like solutions where there are many paths that can be traversed defined by the interactions, coupling the systems in this way gives that kind of flexibility."

I completely agree - I think looking particularly at openness is a really good idea, as you say. This leads to the question of: what's the difference between open and closed systems in terms of the causal structure, and does an open causal structure make a system more "life like"? I have an example in my own essay where being open enriches the causal structure of a system and makes all sorts of intrinsic causal paths available that the same system, in a closed environment, doesn't have.

"But I am interested in cases where the boundary obeys the same laws at the micro level as the system you are studying."

I think you're right that this is key, especially because it seems to me the only way to make a fair comparison. Not everyone always makes fair comparisons, which is why it's so applaudable that you're well-defining the open systems within the context of dynamic deterministic laws.

Anyways, thanks again for the detailed response, and looking forward to talking to you more in the future, especially if we can get our hands on a whiteboard :)

EPH

Dear Larissa

Sara Walker writes:

»If deterministic physical laws describe all of reality, there is no "room at the bottom" for macro systems (such as living entities) to do causal work.«

I think that you are the only who can answer if this is true in this contest. Does simulation, you described answer anything about this? Can you prove this?

my essay

Best regards, Janko Kokošar

Dear Sara Walker,

What reader were you thinking of when you wrote this essay? Most of your figures and examples seem to require reference to other works to understand. Why would we not just read those other work? You make no attempt at a stand alone essay. You reference "rule 150" and do not state the rule. Make reference to a function producing a large number and do not give an example of a number produced under given conditions. Most of what you show would work for water flowing into a stream. Is there anything here that is a new idea or explains an old idea in a new, better way?

Sincerely,

Jeff Schmitz

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