Quantum Dream Time

Joe,

I think I ought to word my reply my precisely.

I saw the product of my sensory system which showed me the instructions, appearing black and white to me, because there had been differences in intensity of the light received from different areas of the screen display. The sensory product was categorically different from the surface of the screen from which the light was emitted. Clarifying that the black and white are attributes of the sensory product.

How do you see Joe?

Dear Georgina,

Reality has got nothing to do with how I try to roughly describe it by using the finite constraints imposed on me by my use of the English language. Please answer this question. Do you think that the earth had a surface a million or so years ago when dinosaurs (each of whom also had a complete surface) existed on the planet? You will have to answer "Yes," because only one single unified visible infinite surface eternally occurring in one single infinite dimension that am mostly illuminated by finite non-surface light could ever have existed.

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

Joe, language and how it is used is important for conveying meaning. 'Surface' has a meaning to me. I can contemplate a surface without it being infinite or eternal just by the fact of it being a surface. Yes I do think there have been surfaces that have existed prior to the ability of humans to produce sensory products that enable their perception. I do think there are surfaces that exist independently of human, and other sentient being (or device's) sensory detection, and from perception. As we understand the external world by differentiating objects we also differentiate their surfaces. That does not mean that there might not be continuity between them rather than any utterly empty space. Which would help with explanation of of foundational forces. However that continuity of something-ness does not make the surfaces of all differentiated objects one surface.

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Well put, Georgina. jrc

Dear Georgina and John and Andrew,

Humanly contrived language am an abstract finite code that only concerns supposedly finite invisible influences. I did not ask you if you or I thought that the earth could have had a visible surface a million or so years ago when dinosaurs existed on the planet. Obviously, the real earth did have a real visible surface at that real time as did each and every one of the real dinosaurs. All of the many finite languages have only ever been produced by man, and every one of those finite abstract languages have always been in a constant INFINITE state of changes. My scientific research has concluded that there must only be one single unified visible infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am mostly illuminated by finite non-surface light.

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

Joe Fisher wrote on Nov. 19, 2017 @ 13:41 GMT: "Please answer this question. Do you think that the earth had a surface a million or so years ago when dinosaurs (each of whom also had a complete surface) existed on the planet?"

Joe Fisher wrote on Nov. 21, 2017 @ 15:50 GMT: "I did not ask you if you or I thought that the earth could have had a visible surface a million or so years ago when dinosaurs existed on the planet."

This kind of contradiction makes it impossible to carry on a reasonable conversation with you. A scientific model has to be open to scrutiny and defended on its superior merits, and the failings of those arguments that oppose it, not mere refutation and word games.

Dear Georgina,

All finite language am contradictory. Reality has nothing whatsoever to do with what you or I think it might be. Let me try another track. Please name for me one real finite activity that could be carried out only by any single real visible living organism that does not require the direct observation of any single finite part of a real visible surface.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Dear Georgina,

All finite language am contradictory. Reality has nothing whatsoever to do with what you or I think it might be. Let me try another track. Please name for me one real finite activity that could be carried out only by any single real visible living organism that did not require the direct observation of any single finite part of a real visible surface.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Dear Joe, if reality has nothing to do with what you think it might be, why are you wasting everyone's time telling them what it is?

John, I said that out of frustration. I think he might have been trying to convey the idea that there is something that exists that is separate from vision and thought, that cannot be adequately described with language. A bit like:

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao

The name that can be named is not the eternal name

The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth

The named is the mother of myriad things" from Tao Te Ching (Classic text)

Once we start differentiating objects and naming them, the external world becomes somewhat understandable to our feeble senses and minds. Yet the categorization is based on our perception and likely inadequate to fully represent what is there. Then again he may have meant nothing of the sort as I have so far failed to find any agreement with Joe.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving. jr

Dear Georgina,

Which came first, reality, or humanly contrived abstract thought? What am the only logical way reality could have been operational before humanly contrived thought became evident? It would have to be because reality was structured eternally. Humanly contrived thought has a finite discriminating quality about it. What do you see when you look at the real skeleton of the former real dinosaur in the real museum? You see that each real bone has a real visible surface. It logically follows that the real visible earth that the real dinosaurs existed on over a million years ago had to have had a real visible surface. It am physically impossible to think about reality because all thoughts are supposedly finite . I only see surface no matter in which direction I look. I cannot possibly be unique. My cat Greyson must also see surface no matter in which direction he looks. The dinosaurs must have only ever seen misty surface no matter in which direction they looked. We can comment INFINITELY on whether or not I am right or not.

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

Joe, I can not comment infinitely as I am a finite being with finite patience. I agree that there have been surfaces prior to the existence of humans but that realization doesn't provide a very useful physics model by itself.

You wrote " It am physically impossible to think about reality because all thoughts are supposedly finite ." It is not possible to hold in the active mind all possible orientations of an object simultaneously. We can deal with one orientation at a time and switch between orientations. That means we can not visualize the entirety of the surface/s of objects that exist externally to us at any time. I would say that that all orientations condition is the reality that exists independently of vision and thought. The seen is different, a limited sensory product.

Dear Georgina,

You wrote: "I agree that there have been surfaces prior to the existence of humans but that realization doesn't provide a very useful physics model by itself." Reality am not an abstract finite physics model. Nature must have eternally produced only one single unified visible infinite surface. I have a surface. You have a surface. All God's chillum done got surface. One does not have to realize surface. One does not have to visualize surface. One does not even have to idolize me for being brave enough to maintain that there must have only ever been one single unified visible infinite surface eternally occurring in one single infinite dimension that am mostly illuminated by finite non-surface light .

I am baffled by the ease with which the physicists were able to convince scientists of the importance of their being able to supposedly accurately measure and describe the utterly complex finite behavior of invisible finite atoms, compared to the difficulty I am having in my presentation of the obviousness of the simplicity of the common observation of visible infinite surface.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Dear Georgina,

You wrote: "I agree that there have been surfaces prior to the existence of humans but that realization doesn't provide a very useful physics model by itself." Reality am not an abstract finite physics model. Nature must have eternally produced only one single unified visible infinite surface. I have a surface. You have a surface. All God's chillum done got surface. One does not have to realize surface. One does not have to visualize surface. One does not even have to idolize me for being brave enough to maintain that there must have only ever been one single unified visible infinite surface eternally occurring in one single infinite dimension that am mostly illuminated by finite non-surface light .

I am baffled by the ease with which the physicists were able to convince scientists of the importance of their being able to supposedly accurately measure and describe the utterly complex finite behavior of invisible finite atoms, compared to the difficulty I am having in my presentation of the obviousness of the simplicity of the common observation of visible infinite surface.

Joe Fisher, Realist

Joe, your credo has very limited explanatory power and is therefore of very limited usefulness to people seeking to understand the physics of the universe/ World. Other ideas are more interesting as they are not such short intellectual dead ends. I have considered that you might have been trying in vain to express something more profound and interesting, but it seems not. Why not take a break from it for a while and come back to it refreshed- perhaps with a fresh, more open mindset.

Dear Georgina,

Reality AM NOT MY CREDO. What do you not understand about the fact that no matter in which direction you look, you will only ever see surface? What do you not understand about the indisputable fact that the earth must have had a surface a million years ago, long before any man appeared on its surface? Why do you pretend to understand that the visible construct of the real Universe must have something to do with humanly contrived speculation about finite invisible mathematical calculations?

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

Dear FQXi.org Members,

Supposedly educated physicists were the only folk who have asked themselves where and when the real visible universe might have came from. If one does not know something, the last person one ought to be questioning in order to find out am oneself. Insanely, the supposedly educated physicists claim that by the application of finite mathematics, they could prove that the visible universe had a finite invisible commencement. My research has concluded that Nature must have produced one single VISIBLE unified infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am mostly illuminated by finite non-surface light .

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated