Oppositional dynamics, like semiosis, does involve triads though this was not very explicit in my brief account, so I am not dealing with just your 'limited binary case'. Where it enters is in the statement 'this coordination has itself a cause'. Yardley talks about triads quite a lot in her book. And persistence is an essential characteristic of biological systems, so that is implicit also. I agree in principle with much of what you say above but I will be expressing it rather differently. As I said, triads play an important role in my approach and that of Yardley's, but trinary cancellation looks like a good phrase (but if I understand your term correctly it is already present in Peirce since as I recall he refers to correlations of 3 entities which cannot be reduced to basic correlation of two of the three) and I may work it in. By the way, parametric amplification is a very simple case of triads (input-signal-idler) and as I see it this is more or less how it all begins.

Lucky misunderstanding? I seem to have missed your point there!

Dr Josephson,

By "trinary cancellation" I mean the red-green-blue color charge cancellation of the strong force. This particular type of cancellation is particularly powerful due to color confinement, which makes color invisible anywhere in the universe outside of nucleons and mesons. Structures (scaffolding) that emerge from this striking partial cancellation include electric charge, mass, and spin.

Thank you for the excellent (I was not clear at all) question and helpful link advice! I must also apologize for my slow response. I seem not to get notifications about responses from other essay threads, so I had to manually search to find responses.

A bit more elaboration about "fundamental circles" is provided below. My apologies for the length, but the relevance of your annihilation-emergence concept, especially with some easy generalizations, seems to have engaged my interest more than I anticipated. I think it is very relevant in particular to the anthropic probability issue.

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Assuming I understood your concepts rightly -- I do not presume this, but hope so -- then the three-part mutual cancellation of the color or strong force would seem very much to fit with your idea that persistence emerges from mutual... opposition? cancellation? Even if it is not an exact fit your ideas, your essay has convinced me that this type of almost-complete-cancellation is a deep and vital component of how our universe manages to meet the astonishing anthropic probabilities.

I would like to suggest an important and I think complementary addition, which is this: Your concept (along with your major reference; I acknowledge that it is primarily her idea) not only creates scaffolding, but also creates flatness. By flatness I mean the ability for persistent entities to spread out without penalty or excessive cost over large spaces. Within those spaces, which are just as much a creation of the incomplete cancellation as are the scaffolding structures, the emergent structures are able to exist independently and subsequently to interact in very interesting ways.

I would suggest that this emergence of flatness from your circle scenario is every bit as important as the emergence of the scaffolding itself, and that there are in fact complementary to each other. The "mutual consumption" of the entities (two or more) is what clears the field and creates a flat, expansive space possible, while the incomplete part of the cancellation creates the relatively isolate entities (e.g., atoms) that reside within that "burned out" space.

I can think of no more literal of emergent flatness than the formation of hydrogen atoms at the end of the long dark era after the big bang, which cleared space for photons and enabled the formation of far more interesting entities, such as galaxies and stars and planets. Space itself was already flat, but in terms of electromagnetic forces, which are incredibly powerful and contrary at large scales to chemistry or anything else resembling our world, this event also mostly cleared out the powerful fields and enabled entities made of atoms -- the emergent scaffolding -- to exist in relative isolation and with far greater persistence over time of their states. In short, plasma became memory, some of the earliest fabric of classical, information-rich history.

(SIDE NOTE: If you believe in space itself as emergent, which I do incidentally, then at some deeper level not covered by the Standard Model there must exist yet another circle of annihilation-emergence that quite literally creates the flat xyz space that makes our entire expansive universe possible. There is lively physics dialog going on these days about quantum entanglement as a possible path to that emergence. Alas, that dialog is sadly encumbered by a completely unnecessary historical insistence on pushing the argument down to the astronomically energetic Planck level, nominally in order to include gravity, even though that approach that has for 40 years failed to yield a meaningful theory. Since entanglement works very well indeed at the ordinary particle level, insisting that entanglement be pushed down to the astronomical energy levels of Planck space violates Occam's razor about as emphatically as any proposal of which I am aware. So: Entanglement as a possibility for emergent space is intriguing. Entanglement when forced down to the astronomically energetic Planck level is... not persuasive at all.)

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On a separate point, there is an easy way to unify oppositions of two or more as part of a single model. Here's how:

If you take your circle and imagine charge as two points on opposite side of the circle, you have the binary cancellation case.

If you instead take three equal charges and distribute them in an equilateral triangle around the same circle, you have the trinary cancellation case.

However, there is no reason to stop there. Placing the points of any regular polygon with 4, 5, etc points also works fine. That those do not seem to occur in fundamental physics does not preclude them from occurring in your higher levels of organization. I would argue for example that the benzene ring, which is to me one of the most delightful and important stabilizing structures in all of biochemistry, is an example of a six-point mutual cancellation yielding a new form of scaffolding. For biochemistry, the idea of the stable benzene ring as "scaffolding" is about as literal as it gets. We would not exist without it, because without the stabilizing effect of partial implementations of this ring, there would be no amino acids at a minimum and no strong, persistent way to make "interesting" molecules (ones more complex than, say, polyethylene).

Finally, your circle charges ("entities in conflict") need not even be regular polygons. You could have two pairs of nearby charges on opposite sides, for example.

The full generalization, including unequal charges and even distribution over three dimensional space (!), is to treat the charges like angular momentum vectors that collectively cancel out to zero angular momentum. The angular momentum model is really inherently 3D, with the 2D (circle) case just a subset, since there is a very special relationship between angular momentum and 3-space due the 3D space's unique interchangeability of rotations and vectors. The model conspicuously does not generalize in any simple way to any dimensionality other than 3D and its subsets of 2D and 1D.

Incidentally, I should note that your original circle model, if presented in terms of angular momentum vectors, is really the 1-space (1D) case; the circle is... well... not really necessary? You just have two entities at opposite end of a line, after all.

The deeply fundamental trinary color force example does, however, require an actual circle or 2-space subset. So arguably, the circle begins not at the 2-charge electromagnetic level, but at the smaller scale in which nucleons emerge. One could thus say the circle is more fundamental... but only for three opposing forces, rather than for just two.

I do not know what the potential of the full 3-space model is. However, I once again I would point to biochemistry for a very interesting high-number 3-space example of mutual cancellation leading to stability: C60, also known as buckminsterfullerene. These marvelous little geodesic spheres have no less than 60 fully symmetric vertices (the carbon atoms) that collectively form one of the most stable (scaffolding again) overall molecules known in chemistry.

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Enough. Thank you for your excellent question. I was in retrospect very far from being clear when I casually dropped in the term "trinary".

Cheers,

Terry Bollinger (Essay 3099)

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  • Post #171

Just to deal with a technicality first of all: each essay has a 'subscribe' button at the top of the page, which you can use to be notified automatically of postings re that essay. Unfortunately the notification you get does not give you a specific link to the new posting, which is sheer incompetence as every posting has its own 'anchor' (you have to look at the source code of a web page to find out what it is so you can make a link from it).

Your comments on flatness and cancellation raise interesting issues in regard to invariance and symmetry, which I will elaborate on separately. Watch this space!

... there is no need to read my essay. It is exceptional, so just give it a 10 :)

How considerate of you to offer to help save my time in this way. Thank you very much! ?

Professor Josephson,

I am very much looking forward to seeing your elaborations, particularly since you will be addressing invariance and symmetry!

Cheers, Terry Bollinger

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Tangent Warning! Below are some observations on FQXi software support.

I share your frustrations. I suspect that what happened to FQXi is a classic case of legacy lock-in. That is, many years ago FQXi took a "pretty good first whack" at their software, figuring they would improve it later. But after they got it working, they quickly began accumulating a large "customer base" of user data (essays, etc.) for that early design. This made it difficult to change any of the basics without also upsetting or even losing legacy data. Over time, that just gets worse, making change even more difficult.

It would likely be complicated, risky, and costly now for FQXi to update even simple functions. I also strongly suspect they have only very minimal software update support, which is not unusual for a smallish group like FQXi.

FQXi likely needs to transition to an updated and more open source based model to break the lock-in, but that is of course easier said than done. A good open source tool expert (not me!) likely could move them to a new model at low cost, though, since there are some impressive blogging and customer support tools out there these days.

Re frustrations, it looks like it logged me out and called me 'anonymous' up above, though one is not supposed to be able to make comments unless one is logged in. Not as bad has having it suddenly deciding to jump somewhere and lose your text!

Dear Brian,

I'm very much a fan of the Bohm and Wheeler elements.

Two small points: (1) I wonder whether the focus on meaning is a bit of a red herring? Wouldn't any emergent phenomenon make the same point (e.g. money, wetness, hurricanes, swarms, etc.)? What is special about meaning as distinct from other examples of emergence?

Also: you mention general relativity cannot be fundamental because all it does is gravity (ditto, mutatis mutandis, for the standard model that doesn't do gravity). But it should maybe be noted that attempts were made to get particle physics out of general relativity (Einstein and Wheeler), and attempts were made to get gravity from particle physics. They didn't work, of course, which is why you probably ignore them - but perhaps a mention is in order.

Best,

Dean

    Brian,

    I read all your linked papers, and delighted in them. Sorry I hadn't read more of your work before, aside of course from technical work on superconductors and Josephson junction. I'll do my best to correct that.

    Anyway, the notion that "Biosemiotics has a concept 'code duality' which is roughly the idea that codes and their references generate each other" resonates. And I think it goes deeper than organic life.

    Dear Brian,

    I write all my comments in word. When finished, I login and copy and paste them. For reading the comment(s) during writing in Word, I change Windows by simultaneously press alt shift.

    Terry,

    there are some things that had to be enhanced in these contest in my humble opinion. The logout-problem seems to me of secondary issue. As I wrote recently on Ilja Schmelzer's essay page, I agree that the ability for voting as such - and especially also for determining some finalists - is absurd, since it heavily involves psychological inertia such as likes and dislikes (just as on facebook) as well as group dynamics, mutual up- or downvoting and such things like that, as the essay contest's timeline proceeds. In my opinion, results that are labeled 'scientific' should not be a matter of some Darwinian selection process.

    But obviously they nonetheless are a matter of Darwinian selection in this contest, since otherwise the optional criteria of Acceptability and Relevance would be amongst the initial selection criteria for the eligibility of the submissions. Since FQXi refuses to proceed in this way and delegate this to the contestants themselves by some voting process, it installs a Darwinian competition process with all its highly subjective pros and cons. If FQXi is convinced that Acceptability and Relevance can be judged more objectively beyond such a Darwinian process of mutually excluding subjective interests, I would like to ask FQXi why they do not conform to this. From the 'bird's view' of the FQXi expert panel of judges, the criteria of Acceptability, Relevance and Interesting must be valid, since otherwise they couldn't adopt them at all for the final judging process.

    So why not abandon this absurd voting process and extend the mentioned eligibility criteria to the final judging criteria from the very start on before the essays get published? It would enhance the readability as well as understandability of the entries as well.

    There have been two new postings following the above by Dean Rickles, I'm told by the system. They are presumably buried somewhere and I've not managed to find them. If anyone knows which thread they belong to, please post that information here so I can look at them!

      Dear Brian,

      one comment was presumably from me, posted one thread above the one of Dean Rickles. The other post I don't know.

      Greetings,

      Stefan Weckbach

      Many thanks. I'm not sure why I didn't find that -- some other system issue or just me being phased out? The other one that I didn't find was posted at 3:31 am GMT today (i.e. 10:31 pm EST yesterday). I'll comment on yours in due course.

      I think I found the second post in your thread with Tom:

      Thomas Howard Ray replied on Feb. 17, 2018 @ 03:31 GMT

      I have the impression that searching for incoming posts at one's own essay page as well as searching for following-up posts for the own posts at other essay pages hugely increases traffic for the FQXi site and is some kind of advertising factor for the whole FQXi enterprise - regarding their sponsors.

      Thanks. I can't say I ever saw '10 nondisplayed posts' before, even with reloading. Is there a problem with the system? But does trying to locate a post in a page you're looking at increase traffic in any case? You don't have to look at another person's page to see if there's a followup post as you can subscribe to the page to get notified automatically if that is the case (and even told that you've posted yourself, which is hardly necessary!)

      I do the same as you but using Apple's notes. I'd assumed from the scheduling that the voting system was basically just used for shortlisting (and for the benefit of others to indicate what might be most worth reading), and the experts decided independently who should get the prizes. Indeed, the guidelines, which I've just checked, say Prizes will not be awarded directly on the basis of Public ratings, but these ratings may influence either Community evaluations or Expert judging. The voting does help determine the finalists but the experts can add more if they wish.

      It is not so much meaning but rather the 'thirdness' discussed by Peirce, that is to say one entity acting as mediator between two others, or alternatively a correlation between 3 entities that cannot be reduced to simple correlations between 2. Signs and their objects, connected by interpretation, form an example, but Yardley discusses other cases. As I shall be elaborating in detail, organisation related to thirdness has remarkable consequences, including that of the power of language. Emergence as such cannot account for this.

      ... this is the subtle spontaneous ordering mechanism that has been missed by conventional science.

      Oh, this is new to me. When I created my account, I found no such subscribe-option for other essay sites - but perhaps I haven't searched enough, so I will do it immediately.

      "But does trying to locate a post in a page you're looking at increase traffic in any case?"

      No, of course not, since the page is not reloaded, but only threads are unstubbed. But imagine that you (falsely or not) conclude that the new post somewhat hasn't been yet displayed at a certain page (since you aren't able to find it), you may think by reloading you can find it more easily, since it then may be actualized on this page.

      Anyways, the lack to give the full html-adress including the anchor to the thread is very inconvenient. I have to try whether or not emails about follow-up posts at other pages do include such a more complete link.

      Personally I did not find that there are any nondisplayed posts on my site. But maybe the exception proves the rule, so to speak (since even computers and software architecture are not immune of having bugs).

      Concerning your essay

      "As I shall be elaborating in detail, organisation related to thirdness has remarkable consequences, including that of the power of language. Emergence as such cannot account for this ... this is the subtle spontaneous ordering mechanism that has been missed by conventional science."

      I like your approach and am looking forward for your results. May I be allowed to email you a complete essay of mine (with footnotes, references and all that) which I wrote for the last essay contest, an essay that has been abandoned due to character limits (it has 12 pages and I couldn't make it shorter without distorting everything). In this essay I examine triads and related formal issues in more detail. I will not upload it here publicly, since I regard it as a highlight of my essay writings that should not be exposed to anybody's pet theories. If you want to read it, just give me a hint and I send it to your Cambridge email adress.